Using Arma 3 for Milsim Training

[proffrink]

It should be said that whilst the US and UK use some version of ArmA for training, it's a far cry from the retail one (in fact the companies - BIS and BI - are now completely separate and BIS is mostly owned by an American investment firm). It's one of the reasons Bohemia catch so much flak - they put an inordinate amount of effort into their military contracts whilst their consumer title sits still very broken and lacking depth in places. VBS is basically incomparable to ArmA in almost every way except its basic concept of being a military sim.

I think a lot of people - most notably a lot of the big modders from A2 - we're severely ticked off that the game was/isn't quite as good as it should be doing how many copies they sold in 2012 and 2013. To the point where the RKSL and ACE teams kind of split in places and the modding scene hasn't been the same since.

tl;dr Don't confuse Bohemia Interactive Studios (BI) (ArmA, Operation Flashpoint and poor community management) with Bohemia Interactive Simulations (BISim) (VBS, JCOVE and big government contracts).

 

[jcheeseright]

I'm pretty into my super immersive milsim, probably a bit too much... Gen3 night vision, seriously considering buying a pickup truck to mount a .50cal or minigun onto, etc etc. even so far as my team fairly regularly booking CQB sites (and occasionally the odd MOD training area) for just us so we can go over room entry drills/building clearances/approaches to buildings etc.

But even from that rather sad and OTT hilltop it seems like using a computer game for 'training' is a bit too far. Especially since I don't think it'll really make a difference. Using Skype/teamspeak/whatever for comms isn't anything like using a radio, since everyone can transmit at the same time, crossing a road in a computer game means holding W for a little while and moving your mouse! On top of that, aiming and shooting cannot be replicated by using a computer. There's a reason the military sticks to expensive field exercises instead of sitting people down in front of computers 99% of the time. Yes vehicle sims are an exception, but the skills are directly transferable in those cases, much like aircraft simulators are used a LOT by military air crew.

It might just be me, but I honestly don't see how being a cohesive team in a computer game is going to translate all that well into being a cohesive team when stuck in a muddy wood for a weekend!

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I'm pretty into my super immersive milsim, probably a bit too much... Gen3 night vision, seriously considering buying a pickup truck to mount a .50cal or minigun onto, etc etc. even so far as my team fairly regularly booking CQB sites (and occasionally the odd MOD training area) for just us so we can go over room entry drills/building clearances/approaches to buildings etc.

Night vision is great (lucky sod)Pick up with minigun is awesome, do it.

Practicing entry drills and stuff is borderline but at least its in person and social in the real world so I could see the point if your really into it.

Practicing online, words dont cover and I have never come across an emoticon that conveys shaking your head in condescension.

 

[Esoterick]

The radio mods for Arma are pretty decent and it's good for learning to give concise, accurate descriptions of where the enemy is. Although you still come across long time Arma players that will still insist of saying "there's an enemy over there by the tree" when you are in a wooded area lol.

A lot of the military tactics that work in real life don't tend to really do a whole lot in game(Arma or Airsoft), although it's often hard to tell if clans do them for immersion or because they think it benefits their team's effectiveness. It all falls apart a bit in Arma when you hit all the issues like breaching a room and the enemy that is lying down for some reason spins around on the spot after being shot 5 times in the chest and kills you instantly or when you are drilling a group of enemies with an LMG and they still return fire that kills you.

I do actually really like Arma, but I wonder if playing similar to how ShackTac do would be more beneficial so you can focus more on communication and coordination. As opposed to drills that don't work particularly well in Arma and might not work at all in Airsoft. At the end of the day though, it's up to you guys so do what you want

 

[proffrink]

ShackTac are a poor example of milsim co-ordination. You want somewhere super walty like 16AA.net.

 

[Esoterick]

ShackTac are a poor example of milsim co-ordination. You want somewhere super walty like 16AA.net.

My favourite are the clans that say they are super hardcore right down to trying to have someone playing the drill instructor from full metal jacket. Then everyone plays in 3rd person mode... no one will ever admit they like it because they can see around corners and over obstacles.

 

[proffrink]

Oh 16AA banned third person years ago. It's completely disabled.

The fact of the matter is that large-scale warfare virtual or otherwise can't be done without a chain of command and drills. Many of the larger communities just don't get anywhere near to what some of the larger milsim operations do. ShackTac doesn't run proper combined ops like a lot of them but some of his videos are ok (if you like watching Dyslexi fly around in a Littlebird).

A lot of them can be really bad though. The American ones in particular attract a special kind of five-star armchair general.

 

[Baz JJ]

All valid and balanced points I feel.

We have just finished Operation Claw Hammer (a physical milsim not an online game) and we always get a fair few new milsim players who have only played skirmish.

Nothing wrong with that at all and they are most welcome. However, we use military radio comms which many have never experienced in skirmishes (some are even new to radios full stop), so the "enemy is over there" experience is often present. Practising on Arma and using a closed Teamspeak channel helps with this as we use the same comms protocols.

As you quite rightly say, there are a lot of things we can't practise. We did a breaching on the weekend and the room ended up being booby-trapped on a 30 second timer with a pressure pad, so the whole breaching crew went up, but Arma wouldn't have helped prevent that.

We feel it is useful to help people experience shoot and scooting and ambush skills and situation awareness, spacing in a fire team, as well as the comms etc.

We don't try to teach people - not our place, but if four or five people play from one of the force teams, normally the more experienced flow down that experience to the others in the virtual world.

Arma also allows us to use NVGs, assault boats and other kit that we don't use in game.

The radio mods for Arma are pretty decent and it's good for learning to give concise, accurate descriptions of where the enemy is. Although you still come across long time Arma players that will still insist of saying "there's an enemy over there by the tree" when you are in a wooded area lol.

A lot of the military tactics that work in real life don't tend to really do a whole lot in game(Arma or Airsoft), although it's often hard to tell if clans do them for immersion or because they think it benefits their team's effectiveness. It all falls apart a bit in Arma when you hit all the issues like breaching a room and the enemy that is lying down for some reason spins around on the spot after being shot 5 times in the chest and kills you instantly or when you are drilling a group of enemies with an LMG and they still return fire that kills you.

I do actually really like Arma, but I wonder if playing similar to how ShackTac do would be more beneficial so you can focus more on communication and coordination. As opposed to drills that don't work particularly well in Arma and might not work at all in Airsoft. At the end of the day though, it's up to you guys so do what you want

 

[Mr Monkey Nuts]

What I would like to see is a simplistic PDF or pocket book training and tactic guide, imnnot talking full on secret squirrel code words and keys to the bomb type stuff, but basic field craft, the theory of moving and looking, where and when breaching, building entry systematic approach ect. Effectve comms!

We have some players who have been there done that for real, some learnt a little in cadets ect most know fuck all, and wouldn't know a breech from a muzzle.

If this does exist or any good field craft books please PM me details.

Also don't give me any "but the terrorists will win!" Rubbish, they are more intelligent than, that they already know the trade. Paris, Mumbai and countless other active shooter situations have already proven that.

 

[Colonel Kurtz]

I've seen far to many milsimmers bitching about 'damn CoD kids' to find this anything other than totally hilarious

 

[jcheeseright]

What I would like to see is a simplistic PDF or pocket book training and tactic guide, imnnot talking full on secret squirrel code words and keys to the bomb type stuff, but basic field craft, the theory of moving and looking, where and when breaching, building entry systematic approach ect. Effectve comms!

We have some players who have been there done that for real, some learnt a little in cadets ect most know f*ck all, and wouldn't know a breech from a muzzle.

If this does exist or any good field craft books please PM me details.

Also don't give me any "but the terrorists will win!" Rubbish, they are more intelligent than, that they already know the trade. Paris, Mumbai and countless other active shooter situations have already proven that.

I did write a pretty extensive guide to radio usage a while back... it'll be on the forums somewhere.

The rest of it though is largely stuff that's better learned by doing... you can read about breaching and building entry etc all you like but teaching it is something that requires a hands on approach

 

[jcheeseright]

here it is:

http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/23346-how-to-effectively-communicate-by-radio

 

[Baz JJ]

The thing Ive found is that a growing portion of our population, particularly younger people read less and less. We live in an era where its getting harder to even read the news; a lot of it is videos.

People absorb a lot more by seeing and doing rather than reading or looking at diagrams.

Arma3 has some pretty good tutorials and virtual training stuff created by the makers. Ive never played CoD or but I have Battlefield and there is no comparison.

The strange thing is that we at Okto are not elitist milsimmers or geardo's. Dont make the mistake of tarring all milsimmers as being the same. Nor are we computer freaks and we are trying to make it as simple as possible so people from our community with a PC, a copy of A3, a headset and a broadband connection can join in without having to do any more than mouse click their way in.

We have tried a few test sessions with Arma3 and it is proving fun and useful. It also enables players who sign up for a future milsim to get to know the players they are going to be fighting alongside, before they turn up on the day. Just sorting out roles and weaponry over Teamspeak when running through a test scenario can be valuable.

 

[Zak Da Mack]

Personally, I like the concept of using Arma. Not specifically the tactics side as they don't particularly transfer into airsoft that well, but more for the fact it helps to get to know each other as well as learn to help coordinate with your team better and learn correct comm discipline. On the day, there is not much time to prepare and plan drills etc. ANd it has got me caught out with my pants down a few times before. The two people who came down to Okto and had played arma together before were much better at communicating and coordinating with each other than the others who had just met each other for the first time.

 

[Baz JJ]

Four of us played this evening and we made an attack on an airfield. We had to discuss the objective over Teamspeak, work out what weapons we each needed (no point in unnecessary duplication), worked out fireteam roles, etc.

The interface to the game is relatively easy and we have a virtual armoury which is available at the beginning so we can select our camo, loadout, weaponry etc and so choose what you want or need.

We were able to work together to fight our way past the gate guards, deal with the patrols and then destroy three aircraft with an RPG and charges. The game senses your load in terms of weapons and ammo and controls your stamina.

As you say Zak, if nothing else it gives you the chance to keep in touch with airsoft pals between games and allows you to polish your comms.

 

[Baz JJ]

The only downside with Arma is the civilians arent very friendly. They stand and stare and dont talk to you.

Not like the village policeman at our real milsim over the weekend. He was bribable and only gets bullets for his gun on Sundays which he then uses to shoot Moldistani squirrels. lol

In Arma3, we were messing with different weapons earlier, playing with some big hitters and I destroyed a quad bike my team mate was riding round, with a .50 cal sniper rifle which looked very much like a Barrett.

The tyres exploded and he ended up losing control and driving into a parked car.

 

[Esoterick]

One thing to consider when using weapons boxes is people will generally try and get the most overpowered loadout they can. It's pretty common on public servers that allow them to see everyone rocking M14 EBRs, a launcher and as much ammo and grenades as they can carry.

The last group I played with ran pretty strict loadouts but would at times spawn boxes in at the start if people were missing kit they should have had. Some people would be a bit cheeky with what they would try and get away with, personally i'd try and get 6 x 200 round box mags for the Minimi if I could get away with it.

It's fun either way, but it certainly makes fights a lot easier when you don't do things like restrict players by their role or say "I think 20+ spare mags is a bit much"

 

[Baz JJ]

Yes we saw the opportunity for weaponfest orgies with the weapons box at the start.

However, in the way Okto uses the tool, its more about replicating what we intend to do at a physical milsim rather than "winning the exercise" by any means possible. So, typically we would only carry weapons types and the number of mags we do at a milsim.

As we only play a fireteam at a time, the players are all over 16 and usually keep each other in line if people get silly. A lot of weight also slows you down significantly.

On a different note, we also find these video guides very useful although we have to filter the advice about shooting through walls accordingly.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-subs_digest-g&v=iKkpSCB_7DM