UKARA Alternative

[Mike636]

It does entirely depend on retailers taking this up but it doesn't cost anything and all you need is a computer and the internet to check a defence. It also gives smaller retailers a way of checking a defence without having to pay UKARA £300 a year.

 

[Kaza66]

Do the scanners need a computer and internet access to be available at the site check in ?

The database can be accessed offline to check in (As not all sites will have internet access)

However the database is updated when you do have internet access.

EDIT: Did you read it closely...? "We are aware that most sites don’t have active internet connections so for the purpose of signing in/registering attendance; the data will be saved and uploaded when an active internet connection is available."

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

The idea is to streamline the current system and add some benefits, to make it worthy of your £5 annual investment.

£5 will get you your own Luther ID and a card and we will use the £5 to provide sites with scanners/develop software to link everything up to a database.

Any money spare after those costs have been covered will pay the people working on the database for their labour and then everything left over will be put it a big pot, ready to be injected back into the airsoft community. Ideas we've had include the free game day/weekender event, but we've also entertained the idea of monthly raffles. Your £5 is buying you a lottery ticket, everyone who's a part of the scheme is automatically entered and the randomly selected winner could get a gun or some gear, it depends how the finances work out.

Personally though, for the sake of a measly £5 per year being entered into a raffle and/or getting the chance to attend a free weekender would be worth it even if the other aspects of the project weren't there.

I'd pay £5 a year for the chance to win free stuff on a monthly basis, definitely. People are paying the same to join UKAPU and there are no real benefits for doing that at all. You get a little UKAPU card and a patch.

The idea here is that you show up to a site and your ID is scanned, this then acts as a record of your attendance. The benefits of this are that as soon as you qualify to purchase RIFs, you can, because the system updates immediately, on the very same day. There's no need to post a form off and wait for a retailer to process it and add you to the database.

All retailers who get on board with the system will gain access to the database for free; UKARA currently costs £300 per year, so our proposal being free instantly draws in all the smaller sites and retailers who are just starting up. It will also hopefully catch the eye of the larger retailers who aren't on the UKARA committee, since it's free and there's essentially no admin involved, all it means for them is that they have another way to check for a defence, the only effort it will take from them will be downloading the app to view the database, then they can carry on as normal.

As such there is no real requirement for every retailer to switch over to the system over night, it will likely work along side UKARA for a reasonable length of time, but since it costs retailers nothing, they have no reason not to get on board and since it comes with added benefits, the players have every reason to get on board.

Additionally, once it has progressed to the stage where the only retailers not on the project are those who are part of the UKARA committee, they will have lost their advantage. Charging all the other retailers £300 a year for access to a database will be pointless because all the other retailers will have an alternate, free system. UKARA won't be getting £300 from all the retailers anymore, so it will collapse.

It will remove the monopoly the UKARA committee's retail outlets have over the market, we should see a lot more airsoft shops popping up because they'll no longer be faced with paying £300 in order to stand a hope of being successful.

This means more choice for us, the consumer, more competition within the market, better prices, less need to import items at your own risk.

So there are many benefits and no real drawbacks. It costs you £5 a year, ok. You have to remember to take a card with you to games, again it's no major burden.

If you have any questions, comments, worries, or anything else, then make them known and we'll either address them immediately with info I've forgotten to note down here, or we'll work on it with your input.

 

[Ian_Gere]

It does sound good.

Instead of a card, I'd prefer a velcro patch with the scheme logo on in a choice of green or tan subdued colours and when you rip it off, your barcode is underneath - like stealthy med patches etc.

 

[Kaza66]

It does sound good.

Instead of a card, I'd prefer a velcro patch with the scheme logo on in a choice of green or tan subdued colours and when you rip it off, your barcode is underneath - like stealthy med patches etc.

I'm sure in time we could offer a small range of items - As long as it has a barcode on that's unique to you and is recognised by the scanner, though it could all get a bit confusing if people had five different items each.

 

[PT247]

Am not a fan of UKARA as such either, but as a player it is simple to obtain, and there is no need to wear a band, a patch or anything else once obtained. I get that logging in to sites to sign a waiver takes a couple of min to do and an electronic band may save a few seconds but is it necessary?

You are also still relying on site owners to upload the player data from each event, currently all they have to do is sign a form to say that the new player skirmishes regularly with them which the player can then take to their local shop or post off to UKARA. The current system is not complicated, adding technology will make it complicated and you can bet ya bottom dollar that the players will still have to sign the paper waiver.

I honestly am for improved control of who has and who has not got a defence and for making it easier for legitimate players to register their defence and if it is cheaper as well then bonus.

I'd not wear a wrist band or a patch to show I have jumped through the required hoops, and making an individual pay for a band/patch prior to them having been playing a significant amount of time will put them off too. Currently we pay once we qualify and have expressed a desire to obtain a defence, this prospect unless I am mis-reading would require players to have a wristband and pay for it from their first game.... which would require the site to hold wristbands to issue to new players and imo cause more delays to those who already have a defence as they would be jamming up the sites registration process.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

We're hoping to build the insurance waivers into the scan system, so that by scanning in on the site you accept the insurance T&Cs, you won't be required to wear your band either, it doesn't have to be visible. Leave it in your kit.

Similarly, if you forget it one day, the only thing you'll lose will be evidence of your attendance at that site on that day, if you aren't trying to qualify for your 3 games then you likely won't be that bothered if your attendance isn't recorded. You could still prove you were there via photos etc if it came down to it for a legal dispute or something, we just thought we might as well have the auto logging system for the sake of those trying to keep their defence up to date.

Also, sites aren't required to hold the bands to give out to people on their first game, the player registers with the project online and they'll then be able to either print their barcode out, or we'll send them a package containing it.
At this stage we haven't decided exactly how it'll work, but rest assured the idea is that sites and retailers will have no admin to deal with as we'll sort it all out, server side on the database.

The scanners sites are given will come with software which saves all the scanned info until an internet connection is present, it will then automatically send the info, which will then automatically be updated on the database.

It's a hands free, no hassle system that does everything automatically.
If anything goes wrong with the scanners it will simply result in lost attendance for a day, there'll be no personal info linked to your scannable barcode thing, it'll all be stored server side and everything will be properly checked and maintained against the data protection act.

 

[Carrel]

what happens if you forget your wristband. Also, A wristband, really? Surely a card would be easier and cheaper. Then you can have better fail safes. Sits in your wallet as well so you can prove you are a skirmisher to a retailer

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

See my last post about forgetting it, Carrel.

We are actually doing cards now, a lot of people raised issues with wrist bands.

 

[rexfan10]

Im sorry if this has been mentioned, however;

How does one go about becoming a luther member with their unique barcode? Is it the same idea as ukara as in attend a certain amount of games in a certain amount of time, or will the luther project be available to those with other defences or....?

Thanks in advance

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Anyone will be able to register, you'll do it online and as soon as you're entitled to buy RIFs the status of the member's account will reflect that on the database.

It'll take age and everything into account automatically.

 

[Mike636]

The Home Office set "the 3 skirmishes in more than 2 months" rule so there isn't a way around it BUT with Luther they don't have to be at the same site so you can travel about to different places if you so wish. We are still in the early stages now so we don't have a set date for when the system will go live.

 

[M_P]

Not sure how often you guys check other forums but it seems to be appreciated as a good idea over at zeroin (yes I know full of crap the majority of the time but support nonetheless) http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthread.php?229383-Project-Luther!&p=1281808#post1281808

 

[Esoterick]

Not sure how often you guys check other forums but it seems to be appreciated as a good idea over at zeroin (yes I know full of crap the majority of the time but support nonetheless) http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthread.php?229383-Project-Luther!&p=1281808#post1281808

Yeah I had a quick look earlier, saw a thread about it here too: http://www.airsofters.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=316347#post316347

It could be worth engaging the guys on the other forums discussing it, but it would largely depend on how willing they are to actually discuss it and not just shout how you are wrong over the top of any points made.

Overall though I think what you guys are trying to do with this project is a good idea and it looks like you are on the right track for how it should be setup. I would imagine the main stumbling block will be getting retailers and sites interested, although that is probably stating the obvious.

 

[Zak Da Mack]

This scheme could be a step forward for us all. I'm just hoping that it's done right and that you can get support from the retailers. Otherwise, it'd be pointless if no retailer accepted it.

Good luck

 

[Deva]

Who on this forum is involved in this? (usernames)

The system you are proposing sounds very ubiquitous. This won't be cheap, at all, unless you have contacts or ability to do it within your team. If you don't have that, you will need to get that, because in my opinion you are going to need this system set up and flawless before you can start convincing anyone to hand over cash to be a part of it, sites and retailers.

Along with the above, where does the amount of £5 come in? How many people are you expecting to sign up? Has this been researched? If this is a consumer based body, why not charge the retailers? You can possibly make it cheaper to the consumer whilst still beating UKARA on the site and retailer front.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Kaza66]

Who on this forum is involved in this? (usernames)

The system you are proposing sounds very ubiquitous. This won't be cheap, at all, unless you have contacts or ability to do it within your team. If you don't have that, you will need to get that, because in my opinion you are going to need this system set up and flawless before you can start convincing anyone to hand over cash to be a part of it, sites and retailers.

Along with the above, where does the amount of £5 come in? How many people are you expecting to sign up? Has this been researched? If this is a consumer based body, why not charge the retailers? You can possibly make it cheaper to the consumer whilst still beating UKARA on the site and retailer front.

Just some thoughts.

The people involved are as follows:

- fivezerothrees

- Mike636

- Airsoft_Ed

- Myself

- Dave... (He recently made an account here at AF UK but I am unsure to his username)

Whilst charging retailers more would make it cheaper to the consumer and more appealing, retailers are less likely to climb on board if they have a high price to pay? That said though we do need to keep improving, altering and re-jigging the project to ensure we can maximise the number of people on board.

The number of people who would sign up is something we are beginning to look into now we've publicised the initial planning stages.

As for a quick update, copied from our facebook page:

"We've come to the decision that in order to make a slick and flexible system for all parties involved our system will be internet based and no longer Windows application based.

What this means is that those who chose the admin free player attendance system can use mobile devices and bluetooth barcode scanners – of course the internet is required. But we will look into on offline 'app' version further down the line.

As an alternative you can simply use a remote barcode scanner that saves a long list of recorded Luther ID numbers of which you can upload to the system at your convenience.

You could also use any laptop with a USB Barcode scanner and record them into a spreadsheet – works nicely! This would again upload straight to Luther.

Lastly, good old pen and paper! Then enter the ID numbers on our online system, again at your convenience."

 

[Deva]

Fair enough.

You've kind of avoided my question about the cost for this system though. You're trying to do a dumbed down version of the Oyster card for airsoft, as you can imagine that wasn't cheap. It seems to me you have an issue in that you've proposed no solution how you are going to set this all up. You need some cash up front because you can't expect everyone to pay up and then wait 12/24 months until you're able to deliver. If you have those 5000 people, 10% of your budget is gone *just* on the required amount of 2nd class stamps to send them their card and welcome letter. That's before you add in the cost of a load of envelopes, paper, ink, the design and production of the cards themselves and all the admin work involved. You're going to have to do that all again if someone loses their card as in my opinion, you can't reasonably expect them to pay again.

There's a further issue with the cards. If some dodgy person wants a RIF, they go to their mate who plays airsoft and says they really want to buy a load. Yes, in any case, they could get their mate to buy the stuff, but, what happens if they register on your site for the small sum of £5, then his airsofting mate simply swipes his card for him every time he goes. He's already done enough skirmishes for the year for his defence to be valid, so he gets 3/4 skirmishes on his mates card, his mate can now buy a RIF.

A retailer will then be making a sale in false belief. If the dodgy person then gets caught doing something he shouldn't, and they wonder how he got hold of a/so many weapon(s), a nasty process will start. If you're selling your system as a defence for the VCRA, you better make sure it is watertight. This hasn't happened yet, but assuming a case is brought to court, and PL was used as the defence, but proved to be useless. The seller/retailer is going to sue you and bring you in to it because you haven't safeguarded them like they wanted. You need to budget to have this looked over on any system. It will possibly never happen, it's unlikely, yes, but going on chance isn't a wise idea and I wouldn't like to see anyone in the community get done over because you didn't get proper legal advice.

I have a lot of other questions about the system, but don't want to post them all here because I think the idea is good (but needs tweaking) and don't want it to look like I'm slating it.

 

[fivezerothree]

Fair enough.

You've kind of avoided my question about the cost for this system though. You're trying to do a dumbed down version of the Oyster card for airsoft, as you can imagine that wasn't cheap. It seems to me you have an issue in that you've proposed no solution how you are going to set this all up. You need some cash up front because you can't expect everyone to pay up and then wait 12/24 months until you're able to deliver. If you have those 5000 people, 10% of your budget is gone *just* on the required amount of 2nd class stamps to send them their card and welcome letter. That's before you add in the cost of a load of envelopes, paper, ink, the design and production of the cards themselves and all the admin work involved. You're going to have to do that all again if someone loses their card as in my opinion, you can't reasonably expect them to pay again.

There's a further issue with the cards. If some dodgy person wants a RIF, they go to their mate who plays airsoft and says they really want to buy a load. Yes, in any case, they could get their mate to buy the stuff, but, what happens if they register on your site for the small sum of £5, then his airsofting mate simply swipes his card for him every time he goes. He's already done enough skirmishes for the year for his defence to be valid, so he gets 3/4 skirmishes on his mates card, his mate can now buy a RIF.

A retailer will then be making a sale in false belief. If the dodgy person then gets caught doing something he shouldn't, and they wonder how he got hold of a/so many weapon(s), a nasty process will start. If you're selling your system as a defence for the VCRA, you better make sure it is watertight. This hasn't happened yet, but assuming a case is brought to court, and PL was used as the defence, but proved to be useless. The seller/retailer is going to sue you and bring you in to it because you haven't safeguarded them like they wanted. You need to budget to have this looked over on any system. It will possibly never happen, it's unlikely, yes, but going on chance isn't a wise idea and I wouldn't like to see anyone in the community get done over because you didn't get proper legal advice.

I have a lot of other questions about the system, but don't want to post them all here because I think the idea is good (but needs tweaking) and don't want it to look like I'm slating it.

Hi Dev!

I'm currently 'managing' the project if you will, so I thought I'd try and address your concerns.

Usually there are quite a lot of people that end up getting paid to produce such systems, luckily we are these people in the week which means we will do this work for free as its only our time. The server will cost us but it's nothing worth even mentioning as we are already set up for that in our line of work. So the most expensive part to most, is free to us.

If we were to order 500 cards as our first batch, it'd work out at about 50p per card, if we order 1000 then 35p. The more we order the less the price per unit and all that jazz – I'm sure you see where I am coming from. Investment wise already we are looking at £250-£350 here. Yeah, that money will have to be raised rather than waiting for memberships to fall in. How? Not sure yet, I'm attacking this project bit by bit, logically.

There's been a lot of realisations and player requested changes of which we've actioned so it's evolving quickly.

With the cards I did intend to manually write their names in marker, but even if they were printed it wouldn't change the fact that people could still be sneaky as you describe. Which has really stumped me. The only solution I can think of is by using a photo on these cards too – it'll raise the cost per unit (not sure by what margin yet) but should technically eradicate the issue as long as they are checked. I'm assuming you know that UKARA also has the same flaw.

In terms of our admin time, the system is actually pretty slick, automatically prints off an envelope the whole lot we only need to pop a card and a standard letter in there. We budgeted a £2 cost per member, so in terms of stationery and postage we have wiggle room.

 

[Ian_Gere]

I think it is fair enough to ask people to pay again to replace a lost card - maybe not the full price, but an admin fee to cover costs, yeah - it's a cheap lesson.

I agree about the startup costs though and that you can't simply ask people for their membership fee and then use that income to develop the project. In fact there may well be a law against that! Another way to approach it may be to ask people to invest now and get free membership when/if it goes live, with the knowledge that they are supporting development. Maybe go further and ask for 'uber-investors' say £30 now for lifetime membership if/when it works out (you can have mine on Wednesday).