Tariq
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But ergonomics is the study of how humans interact with objects.
If its easy to use, how is it not ergonomic?
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To prove a point to a moronic mate: Are AKs ergonomic?
- Thread starter Airsoft-Ed
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If its easy to use, how is it not ergonomic?
Airsoft-Ed
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I'd say they were better on the G36, because the charging handle is placed further forward making it easier to access, it's also operable from either side with equal ease and the bolt release is located inside the trigger guard, meaning the bolt can be released with the trigger finger, meaning you don't have to use your second hand to manipulate the bolt during a reload after a full mag dump.
If it had the same mag release as an M4 it'd be perfect.
Really the initial question ought to have specified the relation with the M4. Because the M4 does have better ergonomics than the AK simply has ergonomics at all.
If it had the same mag release as an M4 it'd be perfect.
Really the initial question ought to have specified the relation with the M4. Because the M4 does have better ergonomics than the AK simply has ergonomics at all.
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Airsoft-Ed
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Because ease of use can be gaged in relation to other things in this context, because there are better tools available to carry out the job of an AK, which to simplify things, is to fire bullets.
M4s are easier to use than AKs, less movements are required to operate them, and operation of them can be done faster as a result.
Tariq
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But the question was "are AK's ergonomic".
If it were "are AK's more ergonomic than...." it would make more sense.
Everything is relevant. An AK is far superior to something from 1900
I'm probably taking it far too seriously compared to what you had in mind when you asked the question though.
It's what you get when you have an engineer on hand though
I mean, if you asked me to "run down to the corner shop and pick up a pint of milk; and if there are eggs, pick up 2 dozen". Chances are i'd come back with 24 pints of milk
If it were "are AK's more ergonomic than...." it would make more sense.
Everything is relevant. An AK is far superior to something from 1900
I'm probably taking it far too seriously compared to what you had in mind when you asked the question though.
It's what you get when you have an engineer on hand though
I mean, if you asked me to "run down to the corner shop and pick up a pint of milk; and if there are eggs, pick up 2 dozen". Chances are i'd come back with 24 pints of milk
two_zero
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Anyone can figure out how to use one, does not have a fire selector that comes in the way / gets accidental bumped all the time if yo got big hands (like with m4 for example, want to mod the selector away in my aeg), mags change easily. As for user friendliness in the real rifle, it needs no looking after and does not tend to jam (which can be a major hassle, especially for non shooters)
Correct me if I am mistaken but...
AK - designated selective fire assault rifle.
M4 - short selective fire assault rifle, plastic but still weighted down from loads of attachments and 30-40rnd magazine. Based on a long lightweight selective fire assault rifle, kept light by using plastic and 20rnd magazine. Based upon a long SEMIAUTOMATIC SURVIVAL RIFLE (!!!)
If you want to travel somewhere by water, would you go for a designated boat or something that started of like a car?
I am not saying that because of this, AK-12 must be better than M4A1, rather, there must, or should be, a better alternative.
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As this question goes i think its down to opinion, due to how comfortable and useable is is for each individual. I personally do not find the Kalashnikov platform ergonomic, as my hand feels awkward, and the fire selector seems to not go where i want it to (though this could be due yo gloves). And Ed I think the G36 mag release is more ergonomic than the AR as i can push it with my middle finger while i take out another mag. The AR i find is not ergonomic either as my hand on the grip doesn't feel comfortable with most.
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Ian_Gere
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Well Ed, I would tend to agree with you, in a broad sense, but in actual fact I cannot operate the fire selector of a G36 at all easily with my thumb alone while holding the rifle ready to fire.
I have to either take my hand away from the pistol grip a bit, or what I usually do, which is use my thumb to go from safe to semi, the edge of my hand where trigger finger knuckle joins palm to go from semi to full auto, my trigger finger middle knuckle to go back from full to semi, and the same knuckle or my thumb from semi to safe. I find it really easy to eject a mag, but that's probably because it's similar to an AK but even easier to do with your trigger finger. I'm not finding inserting a new mag as easy to do as with AK's though. Probably just a practice thing...
My point though is that ergonomics is always going to be about designing for a target user and how user friendly something feels to people on the whole will depend on how wide the bell curve of averages was when measurements were decided upon. However ergonomics is about more than simply user friendliness or indeed speed of use; it must take into consideration such things as how educated does a user have to be to operate the thing and how easy is it for an untrained or badly trained person to break it?
By both of those considerations, an AK beats AR's.
I have to either take my hand away from the pistol grip a bit, or what I usually do, which is use my thumb to go from safe to semi, the edge of my hand where trigger finger knuckle joins palm to go from semi to full auto, my trigger finger middle knuckle to go back from full to semi, and the same knuckle or my thumb from semi to safe. I find it really easy to eject a mag, but that's probably because it's similar to an AK but even easier to do with your trigger finger. I'm not finding inserting a new mag as easy to do as with AK's though. Probably just a practice thing...
My point though is that ergonomics is always going to be about designing for a target user and how user friendly something feels to people on the whole will depend on how wide the bell curve of averages was when measurements were decided upon. However ergonomics is about more than simply user friendliness or indeed speed of use; it must take into consideration such things as how educated does a user have to be to operate the thing and how easy is it for an untrained or badly trained person to break it?
By both of those considerations, an AK beats AR's.
Tariq
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Speed of use is categorical to performance, not ergonomics 
Just having to move your hand to operate the AK selector is more ergonomic to having to jerk your wrist around to operate a AR/G36 fire selector.
To analyse the gun, you have to break everything down into sub-sections and variable options that you would be doing on it. Then apply categorical analysis.
(Which is why I hated my last project taking the entire tailgate section of an Audi A2 and re-designing it, including Full 2D and 3D drawings to BS8888 ;( )
Just having to move your hand to operate the AK selector is more ergonomic to having to jerk your wrist around to operate a AR/G36 fire selector.
To analyse the gun, you have to break everything down into sub-sections and variable options that you would be doing on it. Then apply categorical analysis.
(Which is why I hated my last project taking the entire tailgate section of an Audi A2 and re-designing it, including Full 2D and 3D drawings to BS8888 ;( )
Ian_Gere
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Yeah Tariq, but surely how well or fast people on average can perform the same given task with one design, compared to another, is a factor in ergonomics?
Oh yeah, and it's just occurred to me, concerning an earlier point in the discussion, the job an assault rifle does isn't "fire bullets" it is 'project the will of one person onto the behaviour of others'.
Oh yeah, and it's just occurred to me, concerning an earlier point in the discussion, the job an assault rifle does isn't "fire bullets" it is 'project the will of one person onto the behaviour of others'.
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Tariq
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Nope, when it comes to design the speed of operation is a matter of performance. Fastest times could be set with really awkward controls.
All ergonomics is, is the ease of use. Which feels more natural/comfortable on the body. Does it have as little strain on the user as possible?
All ergonomics is, is the ease of use. Which feels more natural/comfortable on the body. Does it have as little strain on the user as possible?
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Airsoft-Ed
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The poll is slowing coming around ^_^
Come on people, only 4 more to secure victory.
Come on people, only 4 more to secure victory.
M_P
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ONw thing it does have over the m4 is that its fire controls are more self explanatory. If you have a complete novice who never held a gun, I think they'd figure out what everything does quicker than if they had an m4.
With the mention if ergonomics though, as said against today's guns it definitely falls short. Rifles like the ACR and scar at far more user friendly.
With the mention if ergonomics though, as said against today's guns it definitely falls short. Rifles like the ACR and scar at far more user friendly.
Airsoft-Ed
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You think the controls are more straight forward than an M4? The M4 has safe, semi and auto written on it with the most obvious switch ever!
Though I do agree about that with the charging handle, bolt release, mag release and forward assist. I've had mates who picked up airsoft M16s I've had and stuff that haven't figured that out without a few seconds of looking the gun over, or me telling them.
Though I've never had an airsoft AK as of yet to open up the possibility of the same thing happening with that.
Though I do agree about that with the charging handle, bolt release, mag release and forward assist. I've had mates who picked up airsoft M16s I've had and stuff that haven't figured that out without a few seconds of looking the gun over, or me telling them.
Though I've never had an airsoft AK as of yet to open up the possibility of the same thing happening with that.
Nickona
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By easy to use I mean simple as in you're not going to cock it up somehow, and by ergonomics ease of use. For instance an ACR is very ergonomic as it is ambidextrous and except for the cocking handle it can be entirely functioned without changing your grip.
Gecko
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When I think ergonomics I think smooth, snug fitting and designed to fit the dimensions of the user, in which case we should all buy fully customised guns to suit the individual, but anyway back to the question...
M4 (looks like its been built from mechano)
- foregrip is horrible to hold
- selector switch is in an awkward position (who has thumbs that long?)
+ Quick mag release
AK (essentially a block of metal that shoots stuff)
-mag release requires use of forward hand
+ personally the selector switch is reachable and does the job jut fine
Real world
M4 yes you can probably change the mags quicker than an AK but with an you can shove all those M4 mags you've been dropping when you reload straight into an AK and it works...the same cant be said the other way around.
Airsoft world
Seeing that you are going to want to look after your shiny mags and not drop them in the dirt the M4 mag release is going to require you to use your forward hand anyway to catch falling mag so it's a bit of a moot point. Furthermore, AK hi caps hold 600 rounds.... Who said anything about reloading an AK.
As an unbiased observer I'd say its personal preference. Long live the glorious Motherland comrades!
M4 (looks like its been built from mechano)
- foregrip is horrible to hold
- selector switch is in an awkward position (who has thumbs that long?)
+ Quick mag release
AK (essentially a block of metal that shoots stuff)
-mag release requires use of forward hand
+ personally the selector switch is reachable and does the job jut fine
Real world
M4 yes you can probably change the mags quicker than an AK but with an you can shove all those M4 mags you've been dropping when you reload straight into an AK and it works...the same cant be said the other way around.
Airsoft world
Seeing that you are going to want to look after your shiny mags and not drop them in the dirt the M4 mag release is going to require you to use your forward hand anyway to catch falling mag so it's a bit of a moot point. Furthermore, AK hi caps hold 600 rounds.... Who said anything about reloading an AK.
As an unbiased observer I'd say its personal preference. Long live the glorious Motherland comrades!
Airsoft-Ed
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A fair and justifiable contribution -_-
I am now winning ^_^
Suck it George, you bitch lol.
I am now winning ^_^
Suck it George, you bitch lol.
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adam bussey
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may I point out that some of us don't mind getting our mags dirty! I dropped 2 g36 pmags in a mud puddle after using the quick mag release on my SRC g36 for a quick reload.
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I read the thread and voted no, as I compared it to that of the M4.
Ultimately, however, it is all down to personal preference, and moreso, experience.
If you threw me an M4, or an AK, I would have to sit for 5 minutes and work everything out. They are both relatively self explanatory in that regards.
On the flip side, if you threw me an SA80, blind folded with gloves on I could still perform all the drills in seconds.
One thing you must remember, airsoft aside, is you are likely to be carrying the weight of that weapon system on your shoulders for days/weeks out in Theatre... I sure as hell would rather have the plastic M4 with boxes of 5.56 to support than the weight of an AK over a period of time.
Personal opinion, anything Bullpup (Particularly SA80)- Reason: Weight is all in the rear, and the trigger finger remains on the trigger for all weapons drills, which above anything else is safer as the weapon "should" remain pointed at the target at all times. Once you start flicking your trigger hand here, there and everywhere, weapon discipline soon goes down the toilet and you end up shooting your mucker in the crotch.
Ergonomics is more than just how quick you can change mags, its whats safest, and the most comfortable long term.
Ultimately, however, it is all down to personal preference, and moreso, experience.
If you threw me an M4, or an AK, I would have to sit for 5 minutes and work everything out. They are both relatively self explanatory in that regards.
On the flip side, if you threw me an SA80, blind folded with gloves on I could still perform all the drills in seconds.
One thing you must remember, airsoft aside, is you are likely to be carrying the weight of that weapon system on your shoulders for days/weeks out in Theatre... I sure as hell would rather have the plastic M4 with boxes of 5.56 to support than the weight of an AK over a period of time.
Personal opinion, anything Bullpup (Particularly SA80)- Reason: Weight is all in the rear, and the trigger finger remains on the trigger for all weapons drills, which above anything else is safer as the weapon "should" remain pointed at the target at all times. Once you start flicking your trigger hand here, there and everywhere, weapon discipline soon goes down the toilet and you end up shooting your mucker in the crotch.
Ergonomics is more than just how quick you can change mags, its whats safest, and the most comfortable long term.
