Shs High Torque: Lemon?

[Mawky]

Hi everybody, 

This is my first actual post here on the forum but I have been reading loads of topics ever since I started airsofting. I guess I never bumped into a problem big enough to tempt me to make an account I guess  

Anyway a few weeks ago I started tinkering with my AEG out of pure corona boredom. Since it's only a G&G CM16 SRL, I wanted to make a kind of sleeper gun so stock on the outside completely upgraded on the inside. The main goals were to get the RPS around 30 and the FPS nice and consistent around the 340 mark. 

During this process I've hit quite a few problems. The main problem for this topic was the rate of fire. I got an SHS high torque motor and a 13:1 gear set (which I had gotten long ago but never got around to trying out). When I first tested this set up with an 11.1V 1000mAh 20C lipo and an M120 spring (planned on short stroking the sector) I only got to around 23RPS and a current draw of 67A on semi and 33A on auto. I got the current draw from the Leviathan mosfet. At first I thought that was the kind of result I could expect from such a set up but I still ordered a 12:1 set from AK2M4 because I was hoping to get the noise level down (which I did  ). Saddly this step down in ratio slowed the RPS down even further so I started to look into things a bit more using this forum.

All of this lead me to believe I got the shimming wrong and the gears were binding so I started all over again and got the current draw a bit down but not enough IMO and the RPS remained the same. When I put the gearbox in the receiver without the spring, compression parts, ARL and motor, I could spin the gears freely for quite a few rotations. So binding gears were out. 

Next I checked whether or not my piston was binding but this also was not the case. 

I figured I might have had a dodgy lipo so I tried a different 11.1V 2000mAh 30-50C battery with the same outcome. 

The last thing I could think of was the SHS high torque motor that I got so I tried the stock black G&G 18K motor that I had laying around with interesting results. 

These are the numbers with the SHS high torque motor on the 11.1V 1000mAh 20C lipo. 

So earlier today I tried the G&G motor with the 11.1V 2000mAh 30-50C battery which generated the following results. 

After seeing this I'm tempted to think the SHS motor I got was a lemon which would explain everything. What do you huys think? 

If I'm right in thinking the SHS motor I got is bad, which motor would you guys advise for my setup. I'm still hoping to get around 30RPS with the 12:1 gears. I'm hesitant to try another SHS HT motor due to this but am I being stupid? Also if I get another brand, would it be worth switching out the pinion to an SHS one? 

Phew after this long first post I'd like to thank all of you in advance for your input  

 

[Asomodai]

SHS being a high torque is more of misnomer. It is technically a balanced 16 TPA motor. A true High Torque would be 22+ TPA. So going down to 12:1 would have reduced the ROF even more. Generally you pair a balanced motor with a 16:1 or 18:1 set. 

The fact you have also paired it with a SP120 makes it even worse of a combination, the SHS cant generate the torque required to pull such a ratio of gears along with such a powerful spring.

You really need a 22TPA high torque to pair with those gears and that spring. 

 

[Sitting Duck]

I'm wondering if the Leviathan is slowing the cycle time down

the way the Titan can adjust the rof to say 70%

BUT not up on these fancy mosfets - I'm old school

The SHS's/RA motors knocking about with vented cans I believe to be more like 17/18tpa/26~28,000 rpm

I also think even in 100% rof them fancy mosfets nick a bit of rof with all their wizardry inside

and some the readings on amp draw are to be taking with a pinch of salt - though start @ 80~90a initial draw is correct

A good vid showing the rise/fall on initial draw from standstill etc...

(if you are bothered about crap)

I'm presuming on a m120 spring you SS 3 teeth and only minor spacing inside piston

to take a 400fps spring down to 330~340fps on say a 300mm barrel

The draw is a bit high what the leviathan is reporting on auto

but like I said the diagnostics or readings may be way out

(or my own power meter is completely fucked)

Yet what matters despite readings is how warm/hot the grip gets in use

in reality sub 20amps is what I see on my power meter on that setup

BUT, think the Leviathan could be throttling the rof and slamming on mega AB too

m120, ss3 teeth, 13:1 etc... should get you 20rps to 24rps on a new 30k ish motor on 7.4v 25c

& on 11.1v you should see that x 1.55 = 31~37rps

(depends on wire used, breaks & how perfectly it is shimmed/motor angle etc... or if you like a sprinkle of luck)

even taking motor performance as 26,000 divide by gear ratio 13.5 (actual ratio) gives a ball park of 20 on 7.4v

which is 31 on 11.1v at around 340fps UK spec

It does not make sense the 18k ferrite is outperforming the SHS

18,000 divide by 12.5 gear set = 14.4rps on 7.4v

multiply by 1.55 = 22.32rps, the 25rps is coz you now using a more zesty 11.1v than say 25c

Now the motor "could" be duff, could be a 22tpa but that would place the performance still at say 20,000 rpm aprox

so the lower speed on SHS does not add up even if a ZCI torque which is around 22tpa

(zci balanced is around 16tpa - hence the SHS HT & ZCI HT perform very differently, SHS HT is really a balanced motor)

The motor could be assembled really poorly with the armature shimmed way off center from the magnetic field

but doubt if if it would cripple the performance that much, just add a bit of amperage or heat

The insulation could be poor, the way the SHS, G&G & others screw into a lock ring but doubt it

(though Systema's had a short risk in some of their motors)

Yet if there was a possible shortage, I would think the Leviathan would go nutz on a short/error warning

You should easily obtain 30rps on 11.1v, so I would see if you can turn off loads of fancy settings

turn off AB, turn off rof control or set to 100% & any fancy bollocks completely

run it on a 7.4v or mild 11.1v if you ss3 teeth etc....

coz at full stroke 30rps is a bit risky and the other thing the Leviathan might be applying the rof by default

(to save you ripping shit out your drive chain maybe)

naaaahhhhh getting 20rps on 11.1v is what you should get on 7.4v

so I'm inclined to think you should turn off everything in Leviathan first & retest, before blaming motor

but yeah you could have got a duff or sluggish motor, yet me thinks you have a safety whistle enabled I suspect

 

[Mawky]

Thanks for the video, very interesting apart from anything else. 

As far as my setup goes, I have indeed shortstroked 3 teeth and am running a 3/4 cylinder with a 270mm 6.02mm barrel (360FPS limit at my local fields). 

You could be right in thinking the reported current on the leviathan is a bit off because on full auto it reported a higher current than what my 100mAh battery should be able to supply. I think I read something similar about the Gate Titan somewhere but I can't remember where. 

The ROF control on the Leviathan was set at 100% so no holds barred there. I did however turn the AB completely off which apart from generating double shots on semi also increased the ROF with th SHS HT to around 26RPS. Setting the AB to 25% solved the double shots and retained the 26RPS. This still seems to be a bit low to me for a 16TPA motor, assuming that's what I got. 

Any ideas on how to proceed apart from actually getting another motor to test? 

If I were to go for a different motor to test (assuming the motor was indeed the culprit), should a 22TPA motor get me around the 30RPS mark? I don't want to go much higher than that. 

 

[Sitting Duck]

Was the SHS s/hand ebay/fleabay motor ???

coz it just sounds mega fucked or somebody built a 32tpa franken-torque or something

according to this - which is quite dated....

http://aosc.us/techwiki/index.php?title=Turns_per_Armature

G&G grey is like a cheap Cyma ferrite - both seem to be about 27tpa producing slower rpm

(to compensate for weak magnets pulling stuff)

For the SHS to perform worse or about the same it is either well fucked or badly assembled

full of carbon and perhaps not the expected 16~18tpa inside

hence me asking about if it is s/hand

There are motors & there are motors, by that I mean 2 x motors of same tpa - vary in performance a bit

due to the wire used, precision of assembly & stuff like windings soldered to commutator or just crimped etc...

(most but the higher end £50+ are simply crimped to commutator)

A 22tpa runs at 22,000 APROX - by that some places say a 22tpa is about 18k - though I tend to disagree

and go with a simple 22tpa = 22k but as the link shows the thickness/quality of wire windings varies

so tpa is only really a guide at best to actual expected performance

(other variables like precision & neodym prouduce more power torque but no load speed is a bit lower than ferrite

plop same armature in ferrite can and rpm increases a bit (no load but struggles under load & weaker performance)

A 22tpa/22,000 motor will/should get you up to near 30rps on 12:1 you have atm & beefier 11.1v

22,000 / 12.5 = 17.60, then x 1.55 gets you 27.28rps - bolt a bit more zest 11.1v and you are at 30rps imho

but the amp/draw should be lower than the iffy SHS

If you have turned off the rof control etc... then the SHS is very likely iffy

hence me thinking it is fucked s/hand or the original 16~18tpa burnt out, shoved in a 32tpa on fleabay

but the amp draw should be much lower on a higher tpa, so whatever it is - it is quite lemony as a torquey motor

I agree with @Asomodai - get a 22tpa if possible, a good 16tpa will be a bit too much on 12:1 & 11.1v

I think it will pull it OK, people run DSG's with SHS HT though it runs very warm on higher draw/ higher gear ratio

but it will pull your 12:1 but speed/draw will be a bit more than I would prefer to go with especially on 11.1v

(mid to higher 30's on rps, which is perhaps a little risky even ss3 & total watts (amps x volts is increasing on 11.1v etc...)

So yeah 22tpa/22k should be a perhaps wise choice - absolutely 25k tops

The Leviathan is not robbing you much coz G&G is hitting the expected rps on beefy 11.1v as I showed earlier

(so leaning to confirm the SHS is fucked in performance or due a rebuild if out of any warranty)

Me personally like to run with 25k~30k tops on 13:1 7.4v done with thick 15awg to get 20~24rps on 7.4v

and with 11.1v you multiply by about 1.55 or 1.60 if using larger/beefier higher c rating lipo over 7.4v 25c ballparks

All these calculations are at best only very rough as old boots but give a fair chance of expected performance I found

but the actual results, proof of the pudding can vary due to actual motor's performance

(in your SHS case - a wanked motor it seems)

how well it is assembled plus a little sprinkling of good fortune perhaps to produce awesome efficiency

(sometimes the draw is a bit lower & rps is a bit higher than expected & other times it goes the other way)

but yeah somewhere around 30rps & sub 20a draw on auto is what I would expect to see on 22tpa

(maybe 15a but you are on 12:1, well under 20a draw on auto at least)

At a push the stock G&G will do until the 22tpa neodym arrives

though would struggle to cycle with pre-cocking if you wasn't using 11.1v

but with a 22tpa neodym you should get 30rps there abouts and pre-cock like crazy for insane response

soz you got a duff motor, but think from what you said, it is a lemon it seems...

Was this the motor you bought originally off fleabay or something ???

High Torque Motor with added "zest" ???

No it's a fucking lemon motor we have concluded I think

 

[ak2m4]

As others a 22TPA motors is one thing to try.  Taking out the Leviathon and testing with a standard trigger is another.  Also you could try examining the SHS motor brushes and communicator condition, it's easy on the SHS, also look for any breaks in the wiring, hard to see from the top.  

Good video that one, thanks for posting @Sitting Duck, not seen it before.  Anyone interested in motor / battery efficiency work checking out.  I've got a similar device but it doesn't keep a record a the results, only displays.  Very handy device

 

[Mawky]

It took me a while to find out where I got the motor from but it turns out I bought it from skirmshop back in October of 2017. So it shouldn't be a bodged frankentorque or something probably just some bad luck. 

I really don't fancy trying a classic trigger because if I don't absolutely have to so a 22TPA motor it is. Any suggestions that would play nice with the SHS gears? 

I've been looking at the GP motors from ak2m4 since the pinion should be an SHS clone anyway. Any others besides the GP and ZCI. I don't mind spending quite a bit for a good motor but I don't know if something like a Tienly gt 25000 is worth the extra. 

Just for lols and giggles, any of you two interested in testing the SHS HT if I can get it shipped to you for a decent price?  

 

[Sitting Duck]

Tienly, ASG or whatever motors have a O type pinion I think, than the easier D type pinions

so if you ever need to change pinion you will need a motor pinion puller

*** just pointing this out, they are highly rated, bit more expensive motors, but often are O type pinions ***

Your SHS should have visable silver neodym magnets inside

The windings should be 16~18 thicker wire tpa than many more fine threads on G&G 18k, Cyma & Chaoli's etc...

Sometimes a winding may burn out/break and they can stall or fail to start if they park badly

I have had one that spun lovely but say 1 in 5 times it would not spin, then a light touch it lurched into life

(coz it parked badly and the break was in the field - weird, but fucked armature none the less

and I am not that desperate to try re-winding armatures just yet)

SHS's and G&G's etc... have 2 allen bolts, then the top/end bell lifts off, undo lock ring blah blah blah

none of this locking tab shit where you risky spiking your hands on cheapo China stock motors

so it might be worth a go having a butchers at the end of motor/commutator at least & some new brushes

(as it is so easy to pop the end bell off to give it quick clean out near brushes/commutator

clean the commutator and ensure the 3 breaks are clean of any crap - old toothbrush etc...)

if you pull off the pinion you can examine it all in much detail, check it is shimmed central to field with little play

& decide if to try another armature if it looks iffy or a winding is faulty or come adrift or something

failing that, either keep as a spare - neodym can is worth a tenner at least

keep as a spare or chuck in a decent fairly quick stock motor armature - a JG Blue is a 22tpa

so somebody could chuck in a short JG blue, a ferrite ICS or VFC, something around 19/20tpa

chuck that in there and would make a decent snappy torquey motor - not too quick but still some snap @ 22~25k ish

(though most of these armatures are O type pinions so need pinion puller)

So could make a nice motor from a half decent stock ferrite donor armature - sod frankentorque 28/32tpa for most builds

Or shove it on fleabay once it is all sorted with a 22tpa motor from Pete

really weird that it performed poorly but drew so much more amps - kinda ruling out a 28tpa in there by mistake

just a duff lemony motor I guess, normally assembled by a highly skilled technician in a precision assembly line

(nah some 5 year old kid slapping shit together in a Chinese sweat shop paid fuck all per 1,000 motors a day)

 

[Davegolf]

I reckon;

11.1V / 22tpa / M120 / 13:1 / 27RPS

You need decent torque to pull that spring rate and current supply.

Voltage and gear ratio will get the RPM.

 

[ak2m4]

Just for lols and giggles, any of you two interested in testing the SHS HT if I can get it shipped to you for a decent price?  

Happy to test your SHS and compare it to the other 16TPA's I have here.  You're looking at £3 each way for shipping via Royal Mail 2nd class.  So far have been quite impressed with the GP 22TPA motors.  Keep meaning to do an efficiency test video, just finding the time at the moment

 

[Mawky]

Happy to test your SHS and compare it to the other 16TPA's I have here.  You're looking at £3 each way for shipping via Royal Mail 2nd class.  So far have been quite impressed with the GP 22TPA motors.  Keep meaning to do an efficiency test video, just finding the time at the moment

Sadly I'm from Belgium so shipping it to the UK would run me around £13. So if I'd decide to have it tested it would kind of be a one way trip for the SHS simply because I'd like to know if and how bad it actually is. Still thinking about what to do with this one. 

Right now I'm looking at either the GP motors or the more expensive options like the Tienly and whether or not I should get an SHS pinion to match right from the start. 

 

[Davegolf]

I'm a lover of ASG Ultimates, at the price point the perform extremely well and reliably, cool running, well built units.

I have not used Tienly myself.

Brand matching pinions and gears does not always gaurantee a nice mesh.

Roll the pinion and bevel by hand and feel the mesh.

For example I find Siegetek pinions are superb with most gear brands.

I actually dislike ASG pinions, tough but very noisy.

Lonex helical bevel sets have been great for me if you can find them.

Sometimes need to make more under bevel clearance to allow bevel to sit away from the pinion, I think the helical bevels are a little thicker.

If you are going for a proper nice build then get a Siegetek or a few cheaper pinions and test them with your bevel.

 

[ak2m4]

Sadly I'm from Belgium so shipping it to the UK would rund me around £13. So if I'd decide to have it tested it would kind of be a one way trip for the SHS simply because I'd like to know if and how bad it actually is. Still thinking about what to do with this one. 

Right now I'm looking at either the GP motors or the more expensive options like the Tienly and whether or not I should get an SHS pinion to match right from the start. 

Belgium!!!! Ahhhhhh, I thought you were in the UK...yeah just not worth the shipping.  If you can get a Tienly for a good price go for it, they are really nice motors.  GP motors are decent, even come with a SHS pinion but see if you can source a similar motor from Belgium as the shipping will be much cheaper.  For the SHS at least try to swop out the brushes, it's a very cheap and inexpensive fix and may fix the problem. 

 

[Mawky]

I'm a lover of ASG Ultimates, at the price point the perform extremely well and reliably, cool running, well built units.

I have not used Tienly myself.

Brand matching pinions and gears does not always gaurantee a nice mesh.

Roll the pinion and bevel by hand and feel the mesh.

For example I find Siegetek pinions are superb with most gear brands.

I actually dislike ASG pinions, tough but very noisy.

Lonex helical bevel sets have been great for me if you can find them.

Sometimes need to make more under bevel clearance to allow bevel to sit away from the pinion, I think the helical bevels are a little thicker.

If you are going for a proper nice build then get a Siegetek or a few cheaper pinions and test them with your bevel.

I remember reading the ASG Ultimates don't have a bearing in the motor tower. How much of downside would you say this is when compared to others? 

Belgium!!!! Ahhhhhh, I thought you were in the UK...yeah just not worth the shipping.  If you can get a Tienly for a good price go for it, they are really nice motors.  GP motors are decent, even come with a SHS pinion but see if you can source a similar motor from Belgium as the shipping will be much cheaper.  For the SHS at least try to swop out the brushes, it's a very cheap and inexpensive fix and may fix the problem. 

Nope not in the UK, I have some family there though.

I'm afraid new brushes will not solve the issue because the ones that are in there are brand new. You might want to check order 10024 from your store  

The best I can find right now for the Tienly 25K is around £60 which is up there but I'm definitely considering it. 

On the upside the gears I got from you are running like a charm. A definite upgrade over the BD ones I had. 

 

[Davegolf]

I think maybe I wasn't clear enough, I'm referring to the Infinity CNCs. Plenty of bearings, lovely bits of kit.

 

[Mawky]

45 minutes ago, Davegolf said:

I think maybe I wasn't clear enough, I'm referring to the Infinity CNCs. Plenty of bearings, lovely bits of kit.

Well now you've done it, you made choosing a new motor even harder ?

 

[Mawky]

Update: I settled for the Tienly 25K since the webshop from which I was ordering some other bits didn't have an ASG or ZCI. After installing the Tienly and making sure the motor height was set correctly, I did a few test shots with mixed results. The fire rate went up to around 27RPS which is more or less what I was expecting from a 22TPA motor. However according to the Leviathan  the current drawn on startup, semi and full auto were respectively 63A, 44A and 23A. Since this was still too high for my liking, I decided to dig into this a bit deeper. 

I opened up the gearbox and took out all of the compression parts which left the gears, shims, ARL, trigger and the mosfet.  After installing the pistol grip I was left with this set up. 



Before testing both the SHS and the Tienly without any load from the spring I wanted to make sure the gears were definitely not binding. The videos below show the play the bevel has with the Tienly installed and how good or bad the gears can spin without the motor installed (ARL is in). The bevel free play was about the same for the SHS HT motor. Not easy to film all this without a stand so the quality isn't the best but hopefully it will do. 

Being happy with the shimming and motor height for both motors I went ahead to do a few 'test shots' with both. This gave the following results and currents. 

SHS HT



Tienly 25K



I'm not really sure what to make of all this. Are the numbers without any load from the spring at all plausible or is the Leviathan displaying incorrect currents? 

A part of me just wants to call it a day and be happy with the Tienly and the 27RPS (with spring installed) but the other part wants to get to the bottom of this. Maybe it's time to get myself one of those RC watt meters from hobby king.

 

[Davegolf]

Your bevel need to be shimmed tighter than that.

It should have free play but very minimal compared to the spur or sector.

This will give you a more consistent pinion/bevel mesh.

Under load the bevel will get pushed away from the pinion, hence the need for tighter shunning there.

Do not misread, you need very little play but needs to spin freely.

I think overall the leviathan readings are over sensitive or off.

Run a mag of auto only shooting and then feel the motor.

Being a 22tpa of that quality it should be cool to luke warm at most.

I assume you will have to running active brake in that in semi, this will create excess motor heat.

Your RPS is right on for the gears/motor/spring/battery

 

[Sitting Duck]

SHS HT still looks a little suspect as a lower rps than the 25k

The Tienly 25k looks to have meshed better to your bevel

(judging by starting amps)

But still a bit high - I'd expect around 15amps max

but these fancy mosfet readings are to be taking with a little pinch of salt

(or my RC test meter is out of whack as I have said before)

Main thing is you got less draw, a decent rps as expected at last etc....

as @Davegolf said real test is how warm it gets...

To me I think the Tienly 25k is more like a 18~20tpa if the 25k is quoted from a 8.4v

(or 7.4v lipo fully charged @ 8.4v)

A 22tpa is roughly 22,000rpm imho, but it varies as 22tpa on thin/thicker wire, magnet strengths etc...

rof on the 25k is bang on the money.....

25,000 / 12.5 ratio = 2,000 or 20rps on 7.4v/8.4v lipo

20 x 1.55 on a 11.1v = 31 rps

it says 31.3rps, I don't need a fancy bit of wizardry

TBH - a ROUGH NB I SAY ULTRA ROUGH GUIDE on bushings is ROUGHLY around 0.2mm shim on top of bevel

*** NB this can vary a tiny bit say 0.25mm or 0.15mm, sometimes near 0.3 but not often unless there is tons of slack ***

on bearings add a bit more to a ballpark 0.20mm perhaps

and yes I have had some odd 6mm bushing boxes having tons of slack inside so getting above 0.3mm on top bevel

Too easy to over shim the bevel and ram the pinion into it creating heat & high amps

trying to guesstimate it right can be tricky, but if you think it don't feel right...

Strip it down, check bevel in top half, test with grip/motor alongside the top half with bevel

checking to see where the motor height is currently....

If motor pinion looks low then you over shimmed the bevel so less shims on top of bevel

if motor looks quite high you under shimmed it, so add a thin shim or replace the 0.15 with a .25

if the motor looks about right, then the pinion is not meshing nicely and/or the motor angle is crap

but it never hurts to double check shit if things are not going according to plan etc....

The way we mix & match all sorts of shit, it is no wonder even with the best planning & attention to detail

at times it can still run warm/hot and sound like a swarm of wasps fighting inside a tin of rusty old nuts & bolts

(had it myself a couple of weeks ago - that in there, use that motor, yeah looks sweet - WTF !!!

changed motor (not a motor I was intending to use - sounds like a completely different gun - rps roughly the same but much lower amps and sounded so much smoother all round)

This motor height/alignment bollox is way more hit n miss on M4's, with different grips, sloppy room inside, motor angle being all over the place, internal wires & the way they are routed in grip also effecting angle & stuff - ahh it's a fucking nightmare on top of a bad dream when things don't go according to plan

rant over - seems like you made some progress, think the Leviathan reading might be smidge out but certainly seems better

so see how it goes, how it sounds/responds and how warm it all gets in use etc...

glad you got some success after all that messing about - enjoy your snappy peew peew

 

[Mawky]

Ok so I orderd myself one of those rc testers and it arrived today. After soldering on some deans connectors I checked the current draw from the Tienly outside of the gearbox and then once again in the same setup as seen in the picture above. The amp draw outside of the gearbox was around 2.85A. When installed in the gearbox and only with the gears to turn the amp draw was around 3.45A. Sadly I won't have any time to play around with it a bit more until Monday. 

So long story short, the current figures from the Leviathan are probably a fair bit out of whack and my shimming shouldn't be too bad (correct me if I'm wrong  ) but I'm stil going to try to shim the bevel just a bit tighter as @Davegolf suggested. I'll report back with the current numbers once I have everything back inside the grearbox.