Should the UK leave the EU?

[Esoterick]

The referendum was advisory only, if pushed to a vote in parliament our elected representatives (MPs) have a duty to do what is best for the country and not what 52% of the electorate want them to do.

No one has pushed the article 50 button yet because they all think it's a sh*t idea.

It should never have gone to a referendum in the first place, pure democracy like that is essentially a kangaroo court on a national scale.

Exactly this and if we get to vote on the referendum then what valid reason if there for us not to vote on say TTIP or the investigatory powers bill? I don't think it's advisable for us to vote on any policies though as the overwhelming majority of the public(myself included) aren't qualified to make such decisions.

 

[jcheeseright]

Exactly this and if we get to vote on the referendum then what valid reason if there for us not to vote on say TTIP or the investigatory powers bill? I don't think it's advisable for us to vote on any policies though as the overwhelming majority of the public(myself included) aren't qualified to make such decisions.

Yep, we elect leaders to make those decisions for us based on unbiased data... if we have a referendum on everything then rupert murdoch basically runs the country.

 

[Sitting Duck]

The referendum was advisory only, if pushed to a vote in parliament our elected representatives (MPs) have a duty to do what is best for the country and not what 52% of the electorate want them to do.

No one has pushed the article 50 button yet because they all think it's a sh*t idea.

It should never have gone to a referendum in the first place, pure democracy like that is essentially a kangaroo court on a national scale.

so if the result had been 52% Remain would there be a mention of MP's voting on this "advisory" result

or questioning if the result was legal or binding that we remain and not exit EU

Grab a lifetime supply of popcorn and watch it happen

Then everybody blame Brexit

ergh no - we haven't exited the EU yet

well small majority voted Leave

ahh but to quote - it was just advisory

Well f*ck me has certainly opened up a supermarket full of cans of worms for something that was just "advisory"

And the EU lot seem to think otherwise - they certainly didn't consider the result "advisory" with their reaction to it all

Oh yes - just imagine the irony of it all - MP's vote and we remain

Then Brexit goes to Court of Human Rights to uphold the vote to Leave the EU

Brilliant - f*ck me that would be a quite unique situation indeed especially as it was just "advisory"

 

[Sacarathe]

so if the result had been 52% Remain would there be a mention of MP's voting on this "advisory" result

or questioning if the result was legal or binding that we remain and not exit EU

Except that it isn't "just now" as so many people are saying it, it was always. The truly ridiculous thing for me, is the reaction of the other European leaders, not the why they're reacting this way, but the fact that they actually are.

I'm just glad the (Any) PM does not have the authority to activate Art50.

 

[Lozart]

so if the result had been 52% Remain would there be a mention of MP's voting on this "advisory" result

or questioning if the result was legal or binding that we remain and not exit EU

Of course there would. Do you really think that Farage et al would accept the result if that had been the case? Of course not.

The difference would be that we wouldn't be facing the very real possibility of massive foreign investment pulling out of the UK and a very likely recession. But obviously we're just "sore losers"...

 

[Sitting Duck]

Of course there would. Do you really think that Farage et al would accept the result if that had been the case? Of course not.

The difference would be that we wouldn't be facing the very real possibility of massive foreign investment pulling out of the UK and a very likely recession. But obviously we're just "sore losers"...

To be honest I could argue until the cows come home with mad cow disease

The MP's could vote on this or that - they are far wiser than the general public

ooh wait a sec didn't MP's vote on Iraq War ???

Foreign Investment - sounds like a good time to consider investing as their currencies are doing well against the £

but timings are critical in risk management and playing the markets

which often markets gains are to be made at somebody's expense/loss so - ahh bollox to karma n stuff evening out greedy bankers etc....

Nope - I'm about done on this coz we are still in limbo atm with very volatile markets & currencies

 

[Rock-climby-Dave]

Now, I'm pretty sure you know my views on Brexit (I'm Ecstatic about it, for political ideological reasons, not 'dirty foreigners coming here stealing muh NHS, which I am ashamed to say many voters were') but I say this:

Let the MPs vote on it.

We've had our say, the MPs who WE vote for know how their constituents have voted. The huge majority of the MPs (who either vote based on their areas views or risk getting voted out next election) now reside in anti-EU areas.

MPs have two choices:
Vote how they want, to ensure a ride on the gravytrain once their careers here are over.

Vote how their voters want, in a democracy.

At that point, I think most people will start to realise how entirely fucked our democratic system is and we can start to think about democratic reform.

On the Economic viewpoint: We were probably better off, financially, in the EU - certainly in the short term. But can you put a price on freedom?

 

[jcheeseright]

Freedom from what precisely? What exactly did the EU ever do to specifically harm anyone?

 

[Sitting Duck]

if they wanna take a vote on it - fine

but publish how ALL 637 of them vote and see how many abstain than face their constituents that elected them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

After all the bull$hit and wasted time & money lets start having some transparency & accountability of these bastids at Westminster

Stabbing each other in the back, resigning, changing their minds and bollox

They are to serve the people that elect them so f*cking start to prove how they can be trusted once more

Yeah - that ain't gonna happen - whoops I'm trying to stay out of all this coz its all bollox locked in limbo/stalemate

 

[Lozart]

Now, I'm pretty sure you know my views on Brexit (I'm Ecstatic about it, for political ideological reasons, not 'dirty foreigners coming here stealing muh NHS, which I am ashamed to say many voters were') but I say this:

Let the MPs vote on it.

We've had our say, the MPs who WE vote for know how their constituents have voted. The huge majority of the MPs (who either vote based on their areas views or risk getting voted out next election) now reside in anti-EU areas.

MPs have two choices:

Vote how they want, to ensure a ride on the gravytrain once their careers here are over.

Vote how their voters want, in a democracy.

At that point, I think most people will start to realise how entirely f*cked our democratic system is and we can start to think about democratic reform.

On the Economic viewpoint: We were probably better off, financially, in the EU - certainly in the short term. But can you put a price on freedom?

I don't even know where to start with this....

If the democratic system is fucked then how exactly do you suppose we would be able to bring about democratic reform? Surely by your very own argument MPs would vote against democratic reform to preserve the status quo?

As for putting a price on freedom I'd say start at £120bn and work up from there.

SD - by foreign investment I don't mean currency trading, I mean foreign companies choosing to site their premises here due to being in a good position as a gateway to Europe (Nissan/BMW/Honda for example).

 

[Sitting Duck]

SD - by foreign investment I don't mean currency trading, I mean foreign companies choosing to site their premises here due to being in a good position as a gateway to Europe (Nissan/BMW/Honda for example).

So was I........

If £ is going down then in turn investment by other countries "could" offer a risk still but a greater return

Does the global economy really see the UK sinking into the North Sea - no of course not

Companies already established may be looking at all options but few have booked the removal men just yet

Investment though is another matter and the news is awash with numerous stories but still in limbo

Wishful thinking - probably in a coma more like....

But The EU is still reeling from the fallout of all this and it has made an impact on all

So though the EU will/most likely survive there could still be further implications on all remaining members plus possible aftershocks of possible other referendums or at least a review on how this came about

So very few things are set in stone and numerous people are watching for the installment in this major upset

Don't think they are all jumping ship just yet - they are checking the lifeboats & stuff but watching how bad the boat lists

actually this is incorrect - Scotland are still trying to cling on to the Titanic saying "We are not leaving - we never voted to leave"

Just kidding chaps - no offense meant - we shall have to wait & see I guess

 

[Sacarathe]

It will be interesting to see whether the Salisbury convention will apply to any attempts to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, I can't recall any mention of the brexit in the last conservative election manifesto.

 

[Sitting Duck]

edit - I'm done on this for now

 

[Sacarathe]

edit - I'm done on this for now

Well they don't need to reside in that country after they have been granted asylum?

 

[Sitting Duck]

I said I'm done on this but what you refer to is all subject to various changes that has been taking place and will keep taking place

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/reception-conditions/access-forms-reception-conditions/freedom-movement

The freedom of movement and its interpretation and instances of where/whom it applies to is complicating matters

I said earlier I see no reason that EU citizens will change very much - probably 85/90% same stuff

BUT in certain instances I feel each country - EU or outside EU should be able to reserve the right to refuse

All EU citizens currently in UK MUST be entitled to stay - we should set this example anyway regardless of what negotiations may take place with exiting EU

That is all I'm going to say, I'm not dressed in a KKK or Nazi outfit on White Cliffs of Dover pitchforks & torches at the ready just coz I voted leave

 

[proffrink]

We will not be able to easily change the laws surrounding freedom of movement - the EU has made it very clear that trade goes hand-in-hand with immigration during their negotiations with the Swiss over the past two years:

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/swiss-told-to-vote-again-on-free-movement-except-this-time-the-stakes-are-higher/

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html (paragraph 3)

Unless Brussels changes its mind before next February, we will get identical treatment.

This is interesting as well: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/immigration-and-justice/norway-and-switzerland/

 

[Sitting Duck]

wtf - I stated I see EU migration staying nigh on the same anyway even if we negotiate an exit or new terms

What I said but deleted was to do with the Dublin Convention but hard to enforce as each EU country simply waves on illegal immigrants and/or asylum seekers towards the next country etc....

I'm done - really done coz this was a can of worms I did not wish opened on here of all places

 

[skarra333]

Edited - decided not to add this one to the discussion.

 

[proffrink]

wtf - I stated I see EU migration staying nigh on the same anyway even if we negotiate an exit or new terms

What I said but deleted was to do with the Dublin Convention but hard to enforce as each EU country simply waves on illegal immigrants and/or asylum seekers towards the next country etc....

I'm done - really done coz this was a can of worms I did not wish opened on here of all places

You've said it yourself: I'm agreeing with you, but perhaps adding that it'll remain 100% the same unless there's a fundamental change to EU policy. Something we can't have a hand in if we don't have MEPs anyway, but I digress.

Felt it was important to add to this thread because for a lot of people this new-found sovereignty will potentially mean immigration reform, but they fail to understand (and I'm not saying this is the case with you) that open trade with the EU has gone in hand with open borders for years now, and is a cornerstone of EU policy regardless of membership (see Norway and Switzerland).

The overarching sentiment of your post seems to be that it won't make a difference because the EU is inherently broken when it comes to enforcement of immigration policies. I kind of agree, but the reason I voted to remain was so we could work to change that (again, I think there are some representation issues that need to be worked out first but hey). I don't know why anyone thinks these are issues we can 'fix' from being on the outside unless we also sacrifice free trade. Which frankly to me comes far down the list after the economy.

 

[Sitting Duck]

I'm just agreeing with you, but perhaps adding that it'll remain 100% the same unless there's a fundamental change to EU policy. Something we can't do if we don't have MEPs anyway, but I digress.

With nutters like Farage still being an MEP - god help us trying to negotiate a business lunch in Brussels let alone anything else

There are flaws in the EU which you would think could be ironed out within the EU but there is so much arrogance from everybody that it is impossible to reach some common sense - this leaves a stalemate/standoff scenario which I feel that everybody is forcing each others hand so to speak

You got far right - far left all coming out the woodwork causing more divisions within divisions which is getting nobody anywhere

It is just wasting more time, more money to which people will blame Brexit or EU Remain camps for - depending on which side of fence you are on

Pity Junker don't resign then we might have some hope of discussion - but alas really think there are such deep divisions & differences of opinions that like I said I feel everybody's arrogance/ignorance is forcing each others hands, resulting in it all going nowhere. Which is a real shame if a group of civilised allied nations can't work stuff out

I do not wish to enter into further rows & crap - respect people's views x x x