Should the UK leave the EU?

[EvilMonkee]

Sovereignty is the issue for me. Which makes me like Boris. Dear God........../wrists

 

[Lozart]

*stuff*

Dude, don't beat yourself up over it. The numbers are complicated and not always easy to find the whole picture.

My biggest issue with the entire referendum is that the vast majority of people that get up and vote will more than likely have no idea what the EU actually does to benefit us due to a stunning lack of knowledge (or indeed interest). So many of them will knee jerk on an opinion they got from a tabloid front page that actually has fuck all to do with EU membership.

 

[Lozart]

This article very neatly sums up most of the Pro exit arguments and why they're basically wrong. It also very neatly outlines my general feeling on the whole thing: http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

 

[Sitting Duck]

Dude, don't beat yourself up over it. The numbers are complicated and not always easy to find the whole picture.

My biggest issue with the entire referendum is that the vast majority of people that get up and vote will more than likely have no idea what the EU actually does to benefit us due to a stunning lack of knowledge (or indeed interest). So many of them will knee jerk on an opinion they got from a tabloid front page that actually has f*ck all to do with EU membership.

Truthfully and honestly - Nobody knows for sure - screw all the scare stories

Alas the whole world would rather lay blame to anybody but themselves for their problems

I do not have the answers, but people - not just UK getting off their ar$es rather than just sit n moan about stuff is a start

I don't think any possible money saved should just plug our own holes - not for a split second

we need to fix the nhs - heck the whole UK not just keep patching up the faults or papering over the cracks

But that is down to the people of UK who lets face are just thick and lazy or just can't be bothered except to blame others

To me come out - see if we fall on our faces - sink or swim and if we are wrong then ok do something about it

get off our ar$es or admit we f*cked up - but at least we will know for sure and then the whole matter can be truely put behind us

without all the bull$hit people are throwing out there getting lapped up by complete idiots - the general public

but I'm just saying same ol' same ol' again - but that is my take & reason for voting out now we have choice

slightly off topic - the doctors and strikes and 7 day nhs service bollox

uhmm - ok how about we go down the middle for 6 day nhs and sunday is emergency only

not being funny but some of the doctors need to stfu a bit imho

what about all the shop workers who have to work all weird hours - weekends, 24/7, continental shifts zero hours etc....

I work nights but the night rate is nothing like what the night rate % I used to get 10-15yrs ago

The world now operates fully 25hrs a day 8 days a week

So though I see some of their points - oooh f*ck off moaning will ya, everybody is getting screwed over more & more these days

yes people hate change - but wise up, in the real world the general working public are getting screwed over all the time

I know where the door is - but it is a tough world out there and companies are fully aware of that and nobody cares truth be told

TBH - all the quotes and the links - some I agree some I don't

some new wise rulings - some daft

some of them would of been implemented anyway as it is just the way is rolling

For every good thing their is another bad thing you could argue

Min wage & basic living wage - great idea but still companies take the pi$$ avoiding it

plus there comes a time where a new joey member of staff joins gets the min wage

and is assisting a semi skilled person who in realation might only be a few quid above joey

if things all goes tits up - joey is alright he knows f*ck all but the other bloke gets ripped a new one or out of job

It is the company that needs to ensure they train develop and also ensure they pay correctly according to the job

but that is just one of numerous examples where sometimes my work colleagues feel - ffs this ain't fair this fair pay stuff

But then life isn't fair and certainly far from perfect

Oh bollox to this - stop quoting me please, I'm trying to stay out of this and get on with other stuff

 

[jcheeseright]

Oh that's getting shared... a lot.

 

[skarra333]

This article very neatly sums up most of the Pro exit arguments and why they're basically wrong. It also very neatly outlines my general feeling on the whole thing: http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

This article is part of why I'm so unsure, because having read it – it kind of makes me want to vote to leave just that little bit more...

This article is like so so many pieces from the EU and pro-EU camp over the years... I’d say that it doesn't really try to address concerns or questions that unsure people have, it doesn't rationally counter issues offering people facts and information, it doesn’t even recognise them as legitimate worries...

Instead it starts by mocking, belittling and scoffing at people who have questions about the EU and our place in it. It dismisses such creatures as 'wrong thinking'... It doesn’t try to engage and enlighten folk on the fence as to the facts of the situation, it just sneers and reiterates the author’s stance…

Worried about control over our borders? Why – you have to show your passport at Dover – next…

Want to control our own laws? You can’t – we need to do what Europe does anyway, at least now we have some say – stop your moaning.

Does that really address the concerns in anything close to a serious way, does it even treat people with such questions fairly? Hell no – to both.

And this is why we’re here… I think unlike Lozart (whom I respect) and his actual real engagement on issues with information and discussion, this article treats people similar to how the EU is perceived to have – it just sneers and expects their support – with any doubts or questions reduced to an ignorance to be ignored and jeered at…

And when the EU/pro-EU camp mistreat people so for so long, is it any wonder that regardless of any arguments about the benefits of being in the EU – massive doubts remain?

We are already a seemingly decreasingly important part of an increasingly undemocratic super-state... We only get what, 8% of voting power in the EU parliament anyway... And with Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey all candidates for EU membership, that power will further be diluted.

But moving past the issues with the elected minority of EU decision makers, the un-elected majority seem to embody the condescension and cynicism of this article, and they are becoming increasingly distant from us…

To many, that represents a loss of sovereignty, freedom and control… And while “right thinking” minds like Dr Williamson label these as at best - secondary concerns, as well as our base nature, we are saturated (from birth) with far more messages about the importance of such things than messages on maintaining a preferable tax and import/export arrangement with European markets - are we not…?

So when these types of articles and speeches come along, they don’t make me realise how ignorant I am and make me want to vote stay… They rile me and just remind me of how increasingly flawed I feel the EU is, how that compromises some very fundamental priorities that I have, and makes me lean towards leave… And it’s a shame.

 

[Lozart]

This article is part of why I'm so unsure, because having read it – it kind of makes me want to vote to leave just that little bit more...

This article is like so so many pieces from the EU and pro-EU camp over the years... I’d say that it doesn't really try to address concerns or questions that unsure people have, it doesn't rationally counter issues offering people facts and information, it doesn’t even recognise them as legitimate worries...

Instead it starts by mocking, belittling and scoffing at people who have questions about the EU and our place in it. It dismisses such creatures as 'wrong thinking'... It doesn’t try to engage and enlighten folk on the fence as to the facts of the situation, it just sneers and reiterates the author’s stance…

Worried about control over our borders? Why – you have to show your passport at Dover – next…

Want to control our own laws? You can’t – we need to do what Europe does anyway, at least now we have some say – stop your moaning.

Does that really address the concerns in anything close to a serious way, does it even treat people with such questions fairly? Hell no – to both.

And this is why we’re here… I think unlike Lozart (whom I respect) and his actual real engagement on issues with information and discussion, this article treats people similar to how the EU is perceived to have – it just sneers and expects their support – with any doubts or questions reduced to an ignorance to be ignored and jeered at…

And when the EU/pro-EU camp mistreat people so for so long, is it any wonder that regardless of any arguments about the benefits of being in the EU – massive doubts remain?

We are already a seemingly decreasingly important part of an increasingly undemocratic super-state... We only get what, 8% of voting power in the EU parliament anyway... And with Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey all candidates for EU membership, that power will further be diluted.

But moving past the issues with the elected minority of EU decision makers, the un-elected majority seem to embody the condescension and cynicism of this article, and they are becoming increasingly distant from us…

To many, that represents a loss of sovereignty, freedom and control… And while “right thinking” minds like Dr Williamson label these as at best - secondary concerns, as well as our base nature, we are saturated (from birth) with far more messages about the importance of such things than messages on maintaining a preferable tax and import/export arrangement with European markets - are we not…?

So when these types of articles and speeches come along, they don’t make me realise how ignorant I am and make me want to vote stay… They rile me and just remind me of how increasingly flawed I feel the EU is, how that compromises some very elemental priorities that I have, and makes me lean towards leave… And it’s a shame.

Very well put.

I agree that the article is a little...shall we say "lighthearted" in its treatment of the issues raised by anti-EU campaigners but I think that's more down to the somewhat risible nature of many of the arguments put forth by the Brexit side. I would say though don't be encouraged to vote "out" purely because of the tone of one article. If it makes you want to do anything it should make you want to look into the actual effects of exiting the EU and how it will change our stance in the world political and economic arena and not just be one of the mouth breathers that votes based on what the Sun says about immigrants.

I wholeheartedly agree that the EU is fundamentally flawed but I don't honestly think we're better off out of it. We won't be taken seriously on our own, we'll still have to abide by many of the EU laws and legislation and we won't have any chance of influencing them. It does seem that a great number of the people that want to leave think that it will fix all our problems like some kind of magic bullet but it really, REALLY won't.

One spectacularly well thought out Brexit argument said that we should leave and "they" can keep their fancy Audis and BMWs anyway. I presume of course that the European car marques he was referring to weren't the ones built here in factories that provide thousands of people with jobs....

Like I say, educate yourself on the issues and vote according to how you feel on that basis, not journalistic hyperbole (whichever side it comes from).

 

[BrightCandle]

This being an airsoft forum I am going to stick to the airsoft angle for this one.

It doesn't currently look like either will be a big problem to airsoft in the near future. The European plan to ban them seems to have folded with the lobbying and the current government isn't really talking about banning them either so for English and Wales residents it seems either is fine.

The only real concern is the widely held belief that if Britain leaves the EU then Scotland will leave the UK and that will leave them with the SNP in power and they want to limit the power of airsoft guns to 300 fps if not worse. So Scots will have a worse outcome for airsoft if that actually plays out as expected.

 

[Jambo88]

This being an airsoft forum I am going to stick to the airsoft angle for this one.

It doesn't currently look like either will be a big problem to airsoft in the near future. The European plan to ban them seems to have folded with the lobbying and the current government isn't really talking about banning them either so for English and Wales residents it seems either is fine.

The only real concern is the widely held belief that if Britain leaves the EU then Scotland will leave the UK and that will leave them with the SNP in power and they want to limit the power of airsoft guns to 300 fps if not worse. So Scots will have a worse outcome for airsoft if that actually plays out as expected.

Ireland has a limit of 280 or something so 300fps isn't gonna ruin the game here. We always have it worse off anyway so even if they ban it completely I would take just to leave the UK.

 

[RR01]

In 1973, after being lied to by Ted Heath, the UK was conned in to voting to stay in the EEC, i.e. the Common Market. We did not vote to be governed by Europe (our fathers and grandfathers fought a war to stop that happening) or to allow un-elected EU civil servants to decide what laws or regulations should take precedence in the UK. There is nothing wrong with having the EU countries as trading partners, but there is a very real issue with having them as overlords of our country. Anyone who votes to remain will be ensuring that their children and grandchildren will be nothing more than prisoners of the evil that is the 4th Reich. Better to get out now than remain one day longer.

 

[proffrink]

Maybe a little bit of a hyperbole overdose there man.

 

[Aengus]

In 1973, after being lied to by Ted Heath, the UK was conned in to voting to stay in the EEC, i.e. the Common Market. We did not vote to be governed by Europe (our fathers and grandfathers fought a war to stop that happening) or to allow un-elected EU civil servants to decide what laws or regulations should take precedence in the UK. There is nothing wrong with having the EU countries as trading partners, but there is a very real issue with having them as overlords of our country. Anyone who votes to remain will be ensuring that their children and grandchildren will be nothing more than prisoners of the evil that is the 4th Reich. Better to get out now than remain one day longer.

I think you got mixed up with voting for Donald trump tbh.

Together we stand united divided we fall just like the Scottish referendum

 

[RR01]

Maybe a little bit of a hyperbole overdose there man.

Were you alive in 1973? Have you any idea what it was like to live in a country ruled by our own elected government and not by a bunch of over-paid foreign criminals? We might as well have let the Nazis walk all over us in 1940 and occupy the country, because there sure as hell isn't any difference between that and being ruled by the EU Commission.

 

[proffrink]

Were you alive during the world wars that you so haphazardly try to incorporate into your point? Given that I lived in the middle east for 5 years, I'd say I'm well acquainted with what it's like to live in countries full of actual incompetent and corrupt officials that have complex and altogether too intimate relationships with other countries in the GDC - the UK and Europe isn't anything like that (not even close). Don't reach straight for the most extreme example that you can find - it doesn't add merit to your argument at all; just makes you look like an someone who's dredging up the small amount of knowledge that he's far too emotionally tied to to make an actual sensible point. You've admitted yourself that the EEC of old is nothing like the EC of today, so why do you say the UK was 'conned' into participating in it? We've had just as much input in Brussels as any other member state. The fact that is was adsorbed into the EC is what you should be making a point about; where have the Nazis come from all of a sudden?

You're comparing a relentless right-wing fascist dictatorship responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people with the arguably overly-aggressive federalisation of Europe. Learn how to contrast realistic real-world examples, not make an argument laced with silly rhetoric that's easy to make fun of. There are some decent points in this thread on both sides, but yours isn't one of them.

 

[RR01]

The reason I say we were conned is because Ted Heath and the other politicians knew full well what was intended for the EEC, but chose to keep that information from the voters, exactly as David Cameron is doing now with his much vaunted new deal. There is no way that the EU will allow anyone to make it re-organise along the lines that Cameron is trying to tell us it will, as there is too much vested interest in most of the other countries to allow that to happen. You just have to look at the time it has taken to not sort out the massive inequalities in the Common Agricultural Policy to know that the major players in the EU will not allow the UK to achieve anything other than the most minor changes to EU policy and then only as a way of keeping us on-board and paying a massive share of the EU budget, that has yet to be signed off by the auditors in any year as being legitimate.

And so what if you lived in the Middle East. Those countries are known worldwide for being totally corrupt, so cannot in any sense be equated to living within Europe, which is supposed to be democratic and civilised.

 

[proffrink]

See now that's legitimate, sensible input. Thank you.

 

[Jedi_Master]

A very close referendum vote. So the easy part is over and now the much harder aspect of actually leaving the EU begins.

And a change of PM to make sure that we go forward... Boris?

 

[cropzy]

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

 

[Sitting Duck]

Was quite shocked we pulled it off to leave EU

very shocked to see Cameron resign - why do so many leaders bail as soon as things don't go their way ?

Corbyn - well I hate to admit but I respected his honesty about having some reservations 75% in favour of remain

I had has this pic ready for my new profile if we stayed in but I will offer to the Remain supporters as this probably is how half the country would feel anyway...

I am not gonna get into a slagging match, I thought it would go the other way tbh like many did like bookies & financial lot

but I'm more interested in how the EU & others react to this bombshell

soz but I have played the Mars "Believe" ad a few times but Mrs Duck is not a happy EU voter and blames me (as per usual) for everything

FFS - blame the EU - if we all thought we was getting such a great deal we would of stayed...

but nope it is all my fault

Chill chaps, lets see how it all pans out - even if we remained, the cost of all this mud slinging & debate crap has run into millions & millions

That money could of been spent elsewhere - that is what saddens me in all of this plus the bull$hit from both sides

So damn close & so divided on this matter - but at least we might find out just how f*cked we might be or not be

Peace x x x

 

[BrightCandle]

With the SNP calling for a referendum and the SNPs position on airsoft power limits of 300 fps the potential impact is a lot closer for Scottish airsofters.