New hpa gun in the pipeline

[karldavies]

Regarding making a HPA gun that does not spoil the looks or run an airline.I think Wolverine cracked it with their Wraith CO2 system personally. 120 shots per bulb with HPA consistency due to the built in expansion chamber and regulator and it just looks like a normal buffertube.

View attachment 40388

 

[Adolf Hamster]

the problem with the wraith setup is the 120 shots per bulb, or 1 midcap.

it would've worked better if they'd run the bulb in the mag gbb style but incorporated a regulator, sort of like the tippmann but without dumping the bulb every time you drop the mag.

 

[karldavies]

Which would mean expensive proprietary mags, a proprietary receiver and coming up with a method to transfer the gas into the gun without wasting any.Most likely a push to fit connection in the mag and gun, yet more expense.
Vs a system that can be bought cheaply and will fit just about any M4 or AK with the right adapters takes standard mags and the only draw back is you need to spend an extra few seconds to change the bulb.

Having run all the types of HPA, line buddy bottle and wraith CO2. If its realism wanted, i would choose it all day long.
On a milsim that is one bulb every 4 mags. Which on the last one i played took 3 hours to get through.
My point in saying all this, there are limits to what is reasonably possible.
Sure we could have custom guns that do all you are saying, but no one would buy them as they would be monstrously expensive.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

i'm not sure about the premise of people not buying things because they're monstrously expensive, this is airsoft after all.

the mags aren't going to be that much more expensive than gbb mags (which people do buy) and for m4 platforms at least you aren't going to need to modify the reciever (at least not any more than installing an existing hpa system)

 

[karldavies]

Yes you would, the gas isnt going to route itself into the engine without a custom valve setup which would need a receiver made to meet that requirement.
And yes some people are willing to pay the price for GBBR mags, and the massive lack of competitive ability vs HPA and AEG.
In my years playing i can count on one hand the number guys i have met who run GBBRs regularly tho for those precise reasons.
HPA is rare, GBBRs are rare. Now imagine you build a gun that has the downsides of a GBBR with out the realism, which is the main reason for everyone i know who plays with them buying them.

What you are suggesting would be a niche within a niche.
Neither real enough to attract GBBR players or cheap enough for the average skirmisher.

I aint one to turn away from quality kit, i recently spent over a grand on updating to a MTW (By a long margin the best HPA system developed so far) But the gun you are suggesting with what i know it would need internally to function would simply never be able to be sold at a competitive price.
 

 

[proffrink]

updating to a MTW (By a long margin the best HPA system developed so far) But the gun you are suggesting with what i know it would need internally to function would simply never be able to be sold at a competitive price.
 

Best solenoid HPA I'd be happy to accept that on, but I think the DG owners would like a word about it being the best HPA system outright.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Yes you would, the gas isnt going to route itself into the engine without a custom valve setup which would need a receiver made to meet that requirement.
And yes some people are willing to pay the price for GBBR mags, and the massive lack of competitive ability vs HPA and AEG.
In my years playing i can count on one hand the number guys i have met who run GBBRs regularly tho for those precise reasons.
HPA is rare, GBBRs are rare. Now imagine you build a gun that has the downsides of a GBBR with out the realism, which is the main reason for everyone i know who plays with them buying them.

What you are suggesting would be a niche within a niche.
Neither real enough to attract GBBR players or cheap enough for the average skirmisher.

I aint one to turn away from quality kit, i recently spent over a grand on updating to a MTW (By a long margin the best HPA system developed so far) But the gun you are suggesting with what i know it would need internally to function would simply never be able to be sold at a competitive price.
 

Thats why my caveat is for the m4 platform, there's plenty of overlap from the gearbox in the magwell to allow for the addition of a valve on the engine rather than modifying the reciever.

You are right that it's niche, but no more niche than a gun that can only fire 120 rounds before needing recharged (that is to say recharging in a manner more convoluted than changing the magazine).

And it wouldnt have the downsides of a gbbr, for a start there'd be much greater gas effeciency (as you mentioned yourself 120 rounds per co2 bulb), the accuracy consistency a regulated supply gives you and most importantly the reduced gas usage means it'll work much better in winter.

Of course its a lot of effort to go to just to eliminate an air line, which is why nobody's done it yet.

 

[Wo1f]

Thats why my caveat is for the m4 platform, there's plenty of overlap from the gearbox in the magwell to allow for the addition of a valve on the engine rather than modifying the reciever.

You are right that it's niche, but no more niche than a gun that can only fire 120 rounds before needing recharged (that is to say recharging in a manner more convoluted than changing the magazine).

And it wouldnt have the downsides of a gbbr, for a start there'd be much greater gas effeciency (as you mentioned yourself 120 rounds per co2 bulb), the accuracy consistency a regulated supply gives you and most importantly the reduced gas usage means it'll work much better in winter.

Of course its a lot of effort to go to just to eliminate an air line, which is why nobody's done it yet.

My Mws will shoot over 120 rounds from a single gas charge, the FPS deviation is better than most AEG’s, is more accurate out of the box than a TM recoil and actually has some kick. It’s used all year round without issue. In fact.. Sunday I ran the MWS and 2 of the guys I was with were running a scar H gbbr and a mp5a2 gbbr. Nothing missed a beat. 

 Isn’t this a massive step back? If you can’t be running 1000 drum mags out of it because it will run out, and it has no recoil or anything, where’s the gain? Most good AEG’s and GBBR’s have about a 5fps deviation. One leans to realism and one leans to capacity. This HPA thing has neither from what I can see.

 

[karldavies]

Of course its a lot of effort to go to just to eliminate an air line, which is why nobody's done it yet.

Which is exactly what Wraith does.I have had both the M4 and VSR versions of it.
It absolutely eliminates the air line with the sole drawback of a reload taking a few extra seconds. But when you stack that against my MWS which needs a reload every 30rd its hardly a deal breaker.

What you are talking about would require: 
Custom magazines.
Custom Receiver, i dont think you actually realize how little room there is in the mag well area, space which would be filled with some sort of push to fit valve system capable of taking 800psi.. The only other solution being a low pressure gas at which point, why even bother ?. 
Some way to route the gas into the gun. 
A regulator with an expansion chamber that could fit within the body (which wraith already does...) you want something that would be a total nightmare to manufacture with the sole gain being a few seconds less work.

 

Best solenoid HPA I'd be happy to accept that on, but I think the DG owners would like a word about it being the best HPA system outright.

Out of the box mine was shooting a 10in laser ranged 65m group. I have not seen anything perform that well without significant time tuning at 1.14j.

Owned a DG MSK. Personally i would rather hpa tap any quality GBBR than have another one given the massive financial outlay and the sheer amount of time it took to get it working after it was sold to me having been passed around a few times as a none functional project.
The DG is a cool system, but to me its little more than a curiosity. Of the 9 DGs i have seen over the years the only one which ran well was an M249 if i recall.The most common issue was chopping BBs or poor accuracy.
I can agree that a well setup DG is by far the best of the mechanical systems tho, far superior to Tippman attempt at entering the market (mine had 13 separate mechanical fails. Worst of which being the charging pin on the hammer breaking 4x in 9 games)

Interesting discussion this has shaped up to be.

My Mws will shoot over 120 rounds from a single gas charge,

120 from a charge on a good day, yes. But it wont hold 120 bbs.

Mine i generally get between 90/110 shots depending on ambient temps, but that does mean carrying either a speedloader and stopping to reload my mags regularly or carrying a large number of mags.
For this reason i usually end up running my MWS in CQB as i just cant physically carry as much loaded ammo as my teammates can with AEG or HPA systems.

 

[Wo1f]

How many BB’s are you burning through per contact? And surely it’s quicker to put a couple squirts if a speedloader into an empty mag than to dick around replacing co2 cartridges. 

Seems like it’s trying to create a solution to a problem that didn’t need to be there

 

[karldavies]

How many BB’s are you burning through per contact? And surely it’s quicker to put a couple squirts if a speedloader into an empty mag than to dick around replacing co2 cartridges. 

Depends on the game, some of the games i play last 4 hours with constant engagement due to vehicles acting as respawn and reload points.
Can you refill 30rd with a speed loader in under 3 seconds ?
Because thats how long it took me to change bulbs with my Wraith, with each bulb good for 120 shots or basically 1 midcap per bulb.Not the best on a skirmish, i personally fitted a dual source kit so i could also run off an air bottle but with the ability to disconnect and continue shooting off the internal CO2 if i wanted to.
I used to carry the co2 bulbs in a chest mount shotgun shell carrier.

"Seems like it’s trying to create a solution to a problem that didn’t need to be there"

Eh the most common complaint in HPA is the airline, or the unrealistic/ugly AF buddy bottles.
The Wraith solves both problems. 

Dion demos it better than i ever could 

 

[Seth_Erebor]

There is still room for massive improvement, both in the macro and micro level in the design of an Airsoft RIF.

Last I checked, there were 18+ points to customise on the externals alone.

We do need the consistency of HPA without the line and there are groups working to achieve that in a realistic fashion.

Some of the advanced Rain Interface Systems in the pipeline will really change the game.

What interests me more are the ergonomics of the RIF and psychological effects of certain factors.

 

[Aengus]

Just need to make a good looking and feeling tank then attach it to the grip ?

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Just need to make a good looking and feeling tank then attach it to the grip ?

errrrrrrrr that does sound a bit paintbally, or was that the joke

 

[proffrink]

There is still room for massive improvement, both in the macro and micro level in the design of an Airsoft RIF.

Last I checked, there were 18+ points to customise on the externals alone.

We do need the consistency of HPA without the line and there are groups working to achieve that in a realistic fashion.

Some of the advanced Rain Interface Systems in the pipeline will really change the game.

What interests me more are the ergonomics of the RIF and psychological effects of certain factors.

You are never going to be able to get recoil like you can with HPA given current battery technology. That's the real limiting factor and the reason why I use HPA.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

You are never going to be able to get recoil like you can with HPA given current battery technology. That's the real limiting factor and the reason why I use HPA.

I agree, not a fair of AEG.

 

[Tommikka]

errrrrrrrr that does sound a bit paintbally, or was that the joke

A bit paintbally, but there was also a type of stock designed by a gunsmith/paintballer for one of the British Olympic shooting teams which was banned for an unfair advantage. 

It was very close to and inspired by the curved base fibre cylinders to roll in the shoulder.

 

[Aengus]

errrrrrrrr that does sound a bit paintbally, or was that the joke

It was a joke, but a serious joke. Can’t petsonally think of a better solution.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

A bit paintbally, but there was also a type of stock designed by a gunsmith/paintballer for one of the British Olympic shooting teams which was banned for an unfair advantage. 

It was very close to and inspired by the curved base fibre cylinders to roll in the shoulder.

I'd like to see that.

It was a joke, but a serious joke. Can’t petsonally think of a better solution.

Stock isn't big enough?

 

[Aengus]

errrrrrrrr that does sound a bit paintbally, or was that the joke

It was a joke, but a serious joke. Can’t petsonally think of a better solution.