-
Hi Guest. Welcome to the new forums. All of your posts and personal messages have been migrated. Attachments (i.e. images) and The (Old) Classifieds have been wiped.
The old forums will be available for a couple of weeks should you wish to grab old images or classifieds listings content. Go Here
If you have any issues please post about them in the Forum Feedback thread: Go Here
Macks airsoft dreamers of the week thread
- Thread starter Mack
- Start date
sonofsammo
Members
- Feb 3, 2018
- 1,447
- 435
Adolf Hamster
Supporters
- Feb 1, 2018
- 7,057
- 2,229
gotta love it, no detail of exactly what was replaced, why it was replaced, what the replacement part is, or even any claim (let alone guarantee) that the replacement part netted any improvement in performance over the original.
Skullchewer
AF-UK patch owner
- Oct 12, 2020
- 882
- 1,882
son of dan
Members
- Jul 25, 2023
- 30
- 21
Lozart
Supporters
- Jun 24, 2013
- 8,495
- 4,944
That is indeed the Sig offering for the same project tender. There's quite an interesting thread about why the KS1 isn't the best choice here:
Speedbird_666
AF-UK patch owner
- Jul 28, 2014
- 1,719
- 1,327
In a nutshell - here are the arguments presented (heavily paraphrased):
- not made in the UK
- Wrong Calibre (they want 6.5 or 6.8mm)
- Not modular enough to re-equip with .300 BLK BCGs and Barrels easily for sneaky sneaky work.
- Direct Impingment = Runs too hot for sustained fire (apparently)
- Direct Impingment = no good for general infantry as they cannot clean it properly (apparently)
- Direct Impingment = crap suppressed performance with excessive gas to user's face (apparently)
- Should be a piston gun.
Doesn't matter that the US Military have been running these type of guns for that last 50+ years, and will be for decades to come - even with the M7 rollout (if that actually happens).
- Oct 7, 2017
- 6,069
- 5,360
Thanks for the info, I'm still slightly confused though, your first paragraph highlights what look like glaring valid issues, but in the second one you mention the yanks using similar kit for decades with no interest in changing them, in your opinion is the rifle in question actually worth having, or another massive waste of money for kit not fit for purpose but chosen by remf pen pushers at the Mod etc ?.
Speedbird_666
AF-UK patch owner
- Jul 28, 2014
- 1,719
- 1,327
The second paragraph is me - the bullet points are the Twitter author's view paraphrased.
The platform is fine - but it's just a very well made M4. Nothing new. No space-wizard shit-hot unobtanium cool new technology. Just a nicely built M4.
The UK already has a similarly-well built M4 already in inventory (albeit in limited numbers) - it's called the Colt Canada/Diemaco L119A1/2 - as used by those special folks and a some RM and RMP units.
I think the author is pissed as this selection process (Project HUNTER) for the Rangers/Royal Marines could feed into to the wider Project GRAYBURN to replace the L85 completely in HM Armed Forces use. Buying a fairly standard (but quite cool looking) M4 platform and using existing 5.56 ammunition could be argued as a wasted (once in a generation) opportunity - instead of buying into something with higher lethality and better ballistic performance to defeat modern body armour. I think the author wants something more gucci to align with the US DoD M7 program (i.e. a Sig-based Piston Driven 6.8mm platform).
But the KS-1 will work just fine - like the millions of other Direct Impingement 5.56mm M4 guns in use all over the world.
mightyjebus
Members
- Dec 11, 2015
- 905
- 1,544
Something to consider also is that the American's will eventually force Nato to adopt the 6.8 round as they did with the 7.62 and them 5.56 round. This may be a few years away and will only happen if the US find that the 6.8 is all it is cracked up to be. If it does happen there will be a flood of countries and companies producing new rifles in 6.8 and the ability to manufacture the new round (as it's quite complex). This would be the ideal time for the UK to develop a new rifle however we don't know how to do that any more as no one is allowed a gun and even replicas firing 6mm bb's are frowned upon. The mostly likely outcome will be similar to the SLR and we will buy the rights to produce our own home built version of someone else's rifle.
Probably best to stick to a known good rifle pattern until the new round starts making headway into Nato and might have been a driver for the KS-1 selection. The A2's in the armoury aren't a good option as they were procured to replace the worn out A1's and the A2's are now getting to the same point in their life.
More telling is the lack of L85's being issued to the newly formed units and indicates that there is a push to remove the stanglehold the L85 seems to have over the Armed Forces. It's not the worst rifle in the world but it doesn't matter how much you upgrade it, you can't polish a turd. The amount of mangles A2 stamped steel receivers I seen on the armourers bench down in Helmand would give a good indication of just how cheap it really is.
Probably best to stick to a known good rifle pattern until the new round starts making headway into Nato and might have been a driver for the KS-1 selection. The A2's in the armoury aren't a good option as they were procured to replace the worn out A1's and the A2's are now getting to the same point in their life.
More telling is the lack of L85's being issued to the newly formed units and indicates that there is a push to remove the stanglehold the L85 seems to have over the Armed Forces. It's not the worst rifle in the world but it doesn't matter how much you upgrade it, you can't polish a turd. The amount of mangles A2 stamped steel receivers I seen on the armourers bench down in Helmand would give a good indication of just how cheap it really is.
Speedbird_666
AF-UK patch owner
- Jul 28, 2014
- 1,719
- 1,327
In an era where the entirety of the Army and Royal Marines couldn't even fill the seats of Wembley stadium, there is little economic sense to design something new just for UK use. Perhaps if there's an appetite to partner with other nations then it could be more feasible, but design by (multinational) committee will invariably add cost and time to the procurement process.
There's little sense in licensing another design for UK production either - the numbers are too low for effective cost savings - any savings will be negated by the start up and tooling costs for such a short production run.
FN has manufacturing capability in the UK through the FNHUK subsidiary - but only for FN products.
These guys using it
But now with better ammo and more interchangeable parts and tuning, you can go back to DI systems as they are (reportedly) more accurate suppressed? Hence why some teams are moving away from the 416 and to Noveskes. Also allows for more of a tool kit as there are a gazillion spare parts.
Last edited by a moderator:
Rogerborg
Supporters
- Aug 22, 2017
- 9,195
- 6,058
Except that every penny we spend will leave our economy, and we'll always be an importer. Tooling up would have allowed us to become an exporter, at least in theory - although our recent track record isn't great. I'm sure the poor bloody infantry will be happier being issued a decent system that actually works rather than a great one that doesn't (bites tongue on Ajax rant).
Speedbird_666
AF-UK patch owner
- Jul 28, 2014
- 1,719
- 1,327
The reality is that it'll be lucky if HM Armed forces gets 100,000 units - the R&D and setup/tooling costs alone of a bespoke UK design will run into double-digit millions of pounds - which has to be spread over the production run and factor into the per unit cost - so it's only feasible if there's an export customer. And the SA80 was great a export success....oh wait...
Then there's the Civil Servants that will stick their oar in - so any platform designed will be over-budget, under-deliver and only function every other Thursday.
Buying 'off the shelf' makes way more sense right now - even if the UK doesn't own or build the design.
Cannonfodder
Members
- Aug 10, 2020
- 3,444
- 5,361
This. Having seen how badly the civil service wastes money, especially when it comes to procurement, I'm surprised the country can afford anything these days
mightyjebus
Members
- Dec 11, 2015
- 905
- 1,544
It's not really a case of how many or what cost. The UK needs to be seen to be building the rifles in the UK after being burned in the past with limited or removed support for a foreign product that wan't used in the way they wanted us to use it. A couple of examples would be Comms during the Falklands and Helicopters not having software support and being grounded for years. Can't have a rifle that you can't get spares parts for just because the seller doesn't like the war you are fighting.
My main concern is we don't design it ourselves as we will just end up with another EM2 but in 6.8mm. Ideally we should grab a bunch of German scientists and build a rocket that will reach the moon...oops sorry, I meant hire a bunch of weapon design specialists from a country that actually builds and uses guns and then patent the design.
gavinkempsell
AF-UK patch owner
- Mar 7, 2023
- 1,207
- 1,173
France has a long history or doing their own thing when it comes to military smallarms, but even they are changing to H&K(not sure if they'll build under license or buy in). Personally I expect the UK will go down the AR15 family route as parts & equipment are easily sourced from many suppliers in many countries.
Time will tell if the USA forces change to the new caliber for NATO but I don't think other NATO countries are as easily swayed as they were in the 50's & 60's.
Time will tell if the USA forces change to the new caliber for NATO but I don't think other NATO countries are as easily swayed as they were in the 50's & 60's.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Oct 7, 2017
- 6,069
- 5,360
My issued kit was the L1A1, loved it, awesome big hitting battle rifle, but I was out before the L85 reared it's ugly head, but when it did I immediately thought why the feck are we messing about with an unproven design when armalites were proven, licensed by our biggest allies, & pretty cheap too, win win, but oh no, people that have feck all to do with actually using the end product stick their noses in, & the rest is history.
?
