Joule Creep

[Sacarathe]

Chrono via fps on .20 as doing it by joules essentially restricts BB weight and the point of a well tuned/ upgrades gun. 350 for full auto, 450 DMR and 500 sniper. MED for DMR and sniper 20m

Interesting interesting. 

Care to elaborate on this in the Joule creep thread?

I'm guessing you don't realise that when someone is chronographed on an arbitrary high weight such as 0.30 or 0.40 etc they can still use lighter ammo? And it doesn't really matter what their hop was set for either. 

As long as the site uses the player's BB weight or rounds up to 0.3, 0.4 or 0.5 there shouldn't be a problem with chrono'ing using slightly heavier ammo than the player intends to use. Unless the gun is highly customised to the point that the air volume is matched to the BB weight (and thus chrono with a higher weight BB than the player would use could in theory result in a lower energy reading).

 

[proffrink]

Does read like it's missed the point of Joule creep unfortunately. Switching to Joules is just the second step in removing it form the game and is an essentially pointless change by itself.

 

[Wo1f]

Interesting interesting. 

Care to elaborate on this in the Joule creep thread?

I'm guessing you don't realise that when someone is chronographed on an arbitrary high weight such as 0.30 or 0.40 etc they can still use lighter ammo? And it doesn't really matter what their hop was set for either. 

As long as the site uses the player's BB weight or rounds up to 0.3, 0.4 or 0.5 there shouldn't be a problem with chrono'ing using slightly heavier ammo than the player intends to use. Unless the gun is highly customised to the point that the air volume is matched to the BB weight (and thus chrono with a higher weight BB than the player would use could in theory result in a lower energy reading).

You’ve lost me I’m afraid, but I’ll give you an example in the hopes of clearing up what I mean..

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

 

[proffrink]

They crono on ft/s with .2g BBs thought ask your site marshall and even they won't be silly enough to suggest that any ammo is fine, surely.

.2g at 350ft/s is a stand-in for a measurement in Joules that makes it easier for people to understand, but presenting lots in Joules - whilst being a good idea - still leaves the bigger question of Joule creep open.

Then again if one's at a site that lets snipers feed through .4g BBs at 500ft/s then those marshalls have a bigger problem to solve. I'm just not sure if I've heard of a site that doesn't imply/explicitly outline their limits on a .2g BB. I would be extremely surprised if they say 'oh any weight is fine' if you were to ask them.

Again I should stress that measuring Joules is a part of administering a solution to Joule creep (if this is what you're talking about), but not all of it (and will alone do nothing to help) but have a flick through this thread as there are some explain this and examples.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

You’ve lost me I’m afraid, but I’ll give you an example in the hopes of clearing up what I mean..

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

except you are running hot, in a joule measuring site you'd be expected to meet 1.13 joules, meaning you'd need to either run a lower bb weight as you say, or modify your gun to make it within the accepted limits.

of course wether or not anyone has an issue with the energy your running is elementary, as it's down to the site to determine what they feel is an acceptable limit for their customers and the type of game you play. if enough players are in agreement that this slightly hotter gun is acceptable then the answer is to get the site to change it's limit to suit.

 

[Sacarathe]

in all of the sites that I play at, they chrono on fps. A max of 350 FPS measured on a .20. Now I have a standard TM mp7 (minus a hop rubber) that chronos at 340ish on a .20 which is about 1.13 joules? 

Now.. without making any modifications to the gun, if I put a .30 in, I would now have lower FPS as expected, but higher joules. 

I understand you, however it seems you do not understand me.  Which I can follow since I interchange between two systems frequentlt:

1. Chronograph with weight players would use, and
   
2. Chronograph at a higher [arbitrary, but more reliable] baseline than 0.2g.
   

Sticking with the latter for practical reasons would be to chrono'd on an arbitrary weight higher than 0.2g which would be a lot safer than with 0.2g, but in an ideal world people would be chrono'd with the weight they intend to use.

If I played a site that measured off joules, just a change in B.B. weight could have me from  being perfectly fine to not allowed, limiting me to only use a .20 which massively limits my range and accuracy.

That's not how it works. A chrono fail would be a chrono fail. And this is why chrono with the weight a player intends to use is more practical than an arbitrary higher weight, but the better method is much more of a logistical burden.

If your gun passed chrono at 0.2g but failed at 0.3g one would hope the site would refuse to allow you to use it with any weight of BB. This is worse than your fears perhaps, but safer. But this outlines exactly why the other non arbitrary method is more desirable.

ive played at CQB sites week in and week out with a sub 350 FPS gun, but probably a  1.13+ joules gun as lots of other players do. Not once have I ever had an issue or someone has felt that my gun was hot. 

If everyone's gun is hot who would complain? ?

https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/

For AEGs shooting between 1 Joule and 1.14 Joule (0.2g 328-350) generally speaking chronographing with 0.2g works fine. 

For gas/co2/hpa guns and all guns intending to fire in the DMR and sniper roles it's just stupid to chrono on 0.2g.

 

[Wo1f]

except you are running hot, in a joule measuring site you'd be expected to meet 1.13 joules, meaning you'd need to either run a lower bb weight as you say, or modify your gun to make it within the accepted limits.

of course wether or not anyone has an issue with the energy your running is elementary, as it's down to the site to determine what they feel is an acceptable limit for their customers and the type of game you play. if enough players are in agreement that this slightly hotter gun is acceptable then the answer is to get the site to change it's limit to suit.

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

 

[Sacarathe]

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

Ah but now we're swimming in laws vs morals territory: You're saying it's okay to use a hot gun if you get through the chronograph without cheating the site's rules?

Which I guess depends on whether you see hot guns as either unfair, or as a health and safety risk, I'm guessing the former? ? 

To me these rules are for health and safety. And how long it takes to chronograph is an irrelevant consideration. 

 

[Wo1f]

.

If your gun passed chrono at 0.2g but failed at 0.3g one would hope the site would refuse to allow you to use it with any weight of BB. This is worse than your fears perhaps, but safer. But this outlines exactly why the other non arbitrary method is more desirable.

If everyone's gun is hot who would complain? ?

https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/

On that basis, every single gas blowback would be banned because of the way it works. You could be firing at 250fps on a .20 and still break your 1.13j limit with a really heavy BB. So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous ? the only time your backwards way of measuring with a heavier than intended BB would be with an unoptimised AEG

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

Now if the sites you play play or work at want to measure with joules, then whoopdy do for you. Ours don’t.

Ive never known anybody be so smug and condescending and yet still feel the need to point out something with no relevance to me..

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Except I’m not running hot at any site I play... they give you some .20’s at the chrono, tell you to shoot and if it’s under 350 you’re golden. If I then want to use a .25 or whatever that’s fine. If you are under the FPS LIMIT with a .20 that’s what matters and what I assume is stipulated in their insurance documents. 

I’ve never seen a northern site measure in joules. One because it would take bloody forever to chrono 120 people all on different BB weights, and two because it then defeats the point of owning anything but a standard combat machine. How do you think all of these KOA recoils get their range?

you wouldn't need to chrono everyone, you have a chart up for the joule conversions for different bb weights, and keep a stock on hand to check if anyone's suspected of lying about what weight they're running.

cheating the chrono, no matter how you do it, is still cheating the chrono. wether you run .3's and claim it's .2's, if you dial down your hpa, or whatever you do. like i said, if the majority of players are happy running hotter then the site can change it's limits, they are after all arbitrary for the most part.

i get it, we all want that edge, but there are lines we draw between what's acceptable and what isn't, otherwise this game would descent into everyone blasting away point blank with hpa's running 600fps@50rps

 

[Sacarathe]

On that basis, every single gas blowback would be banned because of the way it works. You could be firing at 250fps on a .20 and still break your 1.13j limit with a really heavy BB. So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous ? the only time your backwards way of measuring with a heavier than intended BB would be with an unoptimised AEG

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

Now if the sites you play play or work at want to measure with joules, then whoopdy do for you. Ours don’t.

Ive never known anybody be so smug and condescending and yet still feel the need to point out something with no relevance to me..

Yes. Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g?

What are you even talking about laws vs morals? THE RULES AT MY SITE MEASURE FPS WITH A .20. IF IM UNDER THEIR LIMIT THEN ITS NOT IN THE SITES EYES A HOT GUN, OR THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR THE PLAYERS. How is that difficult to understand? 

Please, this is a discussion not an inquisition, I'm not accusing you of anything, I have shown no intent to give you cause to be defensive.

 

[Wo1f]

cheating the chrono, no matter how you do it, is still cheating the chrono. wether you run .3's and claim it's .2's, if you dial down your hpa, or whatever you do. like i said, if the majority of players are happy running hotter then the site can change it's limits, they are after all arbitrary for the most part.

i get it, we all want that edge, but there are lines we draw between what's acceptable and what isn't, otherwise this game would descent into everyone blasting away point blank with hpa's running 600fps@50rps

It’s like taking to a dog... Explain to me how I am cheating the chrono? My sites rules are pretty simple to get your head around. You can use any weight you want during gameplay, so long as when chrono’d with a .20 it fires under 350 FPS... how am I still having to explain this is not cheating?. It’s directly following the rules of the site. It’s not the “majority of players are fine with it” it’s the sites own stipulated rules.. are you all drunk because England lost or something? How did I get dragged into this?

i don’t run HPA, the thought of a tank and a hose upsets me greatly. 

@Sacarathe so all GBBR’s are banned at your site? 

 

[Sacarathe]

You're not being accused @Wo1f, this is theoretical.

So even if my intention is to use a .20, you’re saying if you put a .30 in it and failed it I couldn’t use it? That’s ridiculous ? 

Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g? A fail is a fail in any arbitrary weight measuring system. This is why the weight a player would use is a better system.

 

[Wo1f]

Your FPS will almost always drop with a heavier BB, so if you chrono under 350 FPS (assuming that’s your sites limit) with a .20, putting a .28 in it will drop your FPS even lower. 

You're not being accused @Wo1f, this is theoretical.

Would you (or a site) let a player which failed to chrono at 0.2g use 0.12g?

No, because that’s doesn’t solve the problem. It’s specified that it must be under 350fps with a .20. If you shot say 400 with a .20 and then used a .12, your FPS would be even higher? Not sure I see what you’re getting at there? 

The measurement for the site I play is sub 350 on a .20. I assume because that’s the lowest weight any actual airsofter is ever going to realistically use, and also it’s a base line. They have a bottle of .20 next to the chrono and the chrono is set up for .20. It’s a quick and convenient way of determining if a gun is hot for that sites rules. 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

It’s like taking to a dog... Explain to me how I am cheating the chrono? My sites rules are pretty simple to get your head around. You can use any weight you want during gameplay, so long as when chrono’d with a .20 it fires under 350 FPS... how am I still having to explain this is not cheating?. It’s directly following the rules of the site. It’s not the “majority of players are fine with it” it’s the sites own stipulated rules.. are you all drunk because England lost or something? How did I get dragged into this?

i don’t run HPA, the thought of a tank and a hose upsets me greatly. 

@Sacarathe so all GBBR’s are banned at your site? 

see this is where the argument comes down to it, you're going on the basis that as long as it chrono's 350fps on .2's then it's fine, however you're missing the point of having that limit with that bb weight- it's energy, the site might not realise that's the important thing, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what's happening, especially as it really opens up the floor to exploiting systems that suffer from pronounced creep.

otherwise why ban steel bb's? i mean it's just a heavy weight bb right? no problem running those as long as it chrono's 350 on .2's.....

 

[Sacarathe]

Your FPS will almost always drop with a heavier BB, so if you chrono under 350 FPS (assuming that’s your sites limit) with a .20, putting a .28 in it will drop your FPS even lower. 

No, because that’s doesn’t solve the problem. It’s specified that it must be under 350fps with a .20. If you shot say 400 with a .20 and then used a .12, your FPS would be even higher? Not sure I see what you’re getting at there? 

The measurement for the site I play is sub 350 on a .20. I assume because that’s the lowest weight any actual airsofter is ever going to realistically use, and also it’s a base line. They have a bottle of .20 next to the chrono and the chrono is set up for .20. It’s a quick and convenient way of determining if a gun is hot for that sites rules. 

You say its unfair to chronograph a fail on 0.3 with a gun which passes on 0.2 - but you also say that putting 0.12g into a gun which failed 0.2g is also wrong. You can't have it both ways.

Your posts are very hit and miss, please read the link I posted and study the chart. https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/  you seem to understand the physics but not actually care about the implications.

I don't intend to antagonise you but I don't see how we're going to get any further if you insist on criticising yourself. 

So can we please move this away from "you", and your local site, and onto what really matters here: to you are hot guns unfair or unsafe? (this is a joke question).

I do sincerely apologise if you've received any impression that you were being accused by me of anything at any time yesterday.

My goal has been to convince you that joules are better than 0.2g at a select FPS but you keep going back to "your gun at your site" which no one cares about.

 

[Wo1f]

see this is where the argument comes down to it, you're going on the basis that as long as it chrono's 350fps on .2's then it's fine, however you're missing the point of having that limit with that bb weight- it's energy, the site might not realise that's the important thing, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what's happening, especially as it really opens up the floor to exploiting systems that suffer from pronounced creep.

otherwise why ban steel bb's? i mean it's just a heavy weight bb right? no problem running those as long as it chrono's 350 on .2's.....

I get what you’re saying,  that .20 at 350 is where they get the joule reading of 1.13 that you are presumably measured at, but it has never been an issue at the site. Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? Taking the shot a meter further back would scrub more sting out of a BB. 

Measuring the way they do up here here is a fast and convenient way of getting 100+ People chrono’d that’s easily spot checked in the field and in the 2+ years of playing at their sites, I’ve never come across a single incident where someone has bitched about a gun being what you would deem to be ‘hot’

I’m pretty sure the rules in all sites stipulate the definition of an airsoft BB and what it must be made out of. Or at least, their insurance documents will. 

 

[Sacarathe]

Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? 

My eye pro doesn't have feelings.  :wub:

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I get what you’re saying,  that .20 at 350 is where they get the joule reading of 1.13 that you are presumably measured at, but it has never been an issue at the site. Do you honestly think that you can feel the difference if a gun is .03 joules over because they put heavier BB’s in? Taking the shot a meter further back would scrub more sting out of a BB. 

Measuring the way they do up here here is a fast and convenient way of getting 100+ People chrono’d that’s easily spot checked in the field and in the 2+ years of playing at their sites, I’ve never come across a single incident where someone has bitched about a gun being what you would deem to be ‘hot’

I’m pretty sure the rules in all sites stipulate the definition of an airsoft BB and what it must be made out of. Or at least, their insurance documents will. 

thing is, depending on the gun setup it can be quite a significant difference, hence the point of this topic.

sons of ammo pointed out earlier on his gun the difference between .2 and .4 is nearly 50% increase in power, so it's not insignificant, it's certainly enough of a difference to fail the gun if it was firing the same energy on .2's.

 

[LightningCh]

I must have a lack of morals because I will run my sniper to chrono and have it abide by the sites rules and then use my preferred weight of bb.

Just like the other snipers on site 

I havent cheated the chrono in anyway, nor have I intentionally run my gun hot under a limit that my site doesn't measure. (Prior to knowing what joule creep is this is)

But even with knowing what it is.

If I choose to sort out my gun so it fires .4s under the safe J. Then yay, I'm sure it will help me when the opposing sniper fires his .2 x 500fps sniper at me.. And then when I'm bleeding and accusing him of running his gun hot, he will put .2s in and chrono the gun, and it will be deemed safe to play with.

Like this is a really bad attitude I have towards it but.

Until sites specify Joule limits.

I will continue to follow the rules

Just like the rest of the players.

*Opinion on subject matter*

Joule limits are the better reading, but if a site doesnt use them, then what's really the point in me using them?

You can still bleed from a .2 being shot at 280fps (i apologised after this happened), you could also still lose an eye if it hit directly...

End of the day, imo, we agreed to play with guns set to the site rules, and we sign away the rights on the waiver.