Joule Creep

[Jedi_Master]

It should be sites' responsibility to specify limits in Joules, and to chrono with heavy BBs.

Sites need to lead on this.  Perhaps their insurers need to make them do so.

It could be the "cost" of heavier weight BBs over 0.20g ones, although I doubt it.  And until there are serious injuries and insurance is required, they are not going to do anything.

P.S. just checked my bed, no signs of duct taping either.

 

[AndyDynamic]

Hey guys

This is an interesting discussion - so from what I can see, this is one example I know:

Urban Assault has a strict 400FPS 0.2g limit on Snipers - it's partially CQB and if you are sticking a sniper out of a ground floor window and cap someone in the side of the head.. ouch.

So that means the Joule limit is 1.49 - and they ask me to Chrono using 0.2g

Then I want to field 0.32 due to the more powerful spring, I should be chronoing at approx. 315fps so I don't go over this 1.49 limit. If I Chrono at say 325, that would be 1.57joules, which is an equivalent power of 410-415fps, so in theory hot for the weight of BB.

 

[Immortal]

It should be sites' responsibility to specify limits in Joules, and to chrono with heavy BBs.

I opine this because how can players be expected to know that it's even an issue?  Sites typically only talk in terms of fps x 0.2g. Euro retailers may mention J but UK sites like patrolbase only list fps x 0.2g.  A typical Facebook group isn't going to vomit that pearl of wisdom into the "noice m8" word salad.

So really, how are players supposed to know?  And why would they seek out that information, if their site says and tests "500fps with 0.2g"?

We could wish that it were otherwise, but that's about as effective as wishing for Kate Upton duct taped to your bed.

The small minority of players who are inquisitive enough to seek out forums rather than Facebook, stumble on threads like this, and then actually penalise themselves by chronoing well "under" with 0.2g can pew with a clear conscience.  But the majority of sniper / DMR / HPA BBs flying around are still going to be "hot" and the problem isn't solved.

Sites need to lead on this.  Perhaps their insurers need to make them do so.

I agree; game sites should know, specify, measure and inform. However I also think a player should, more so if they alter their rif and/or ammo weights. I know it is too much to hope every single player does their homework, I get that. Nothing in this world is ideal. Sites definitely should though 100%.

I appreciate that whilst it is not a new power unit, it does appear to be a new measurement of power in this sport specifically.

Given time perhaps that will change.

Unless this is talked about and made public in searches it will not change for either party. And to be fair there are hundreds of threads on the web discussing and explaining joule creep. Some are explained incorrectly but the essence is correct.

I know brand new players yet to play that have taken on board this way of measuring power. They simply accept that as normal and adjust accordingly - even if they have had to return to a shop to check it as they may not own a chrono or have access to one elsewhere easily.

If people are to deviate from stock rifs and 0.2 then perhaps they should consider how this will effect power. It also doesn't help that most retailers specs are absolute nonsense so they should step up too rather than looking to just make sales from bogus specs.

I do think people should know what they're pewing down the field even if it is the game site that informs them (of which they should).

I don't think it wise to guess how the fps/joules translate with ammo weights. It isn't something that can be guessed due to the varying factors envolved in why some rifs creep more than others. Nobody needs to guess anyway, as long as it's chrono'd and checked against a chart, the info is clear.

If a site says 500fps on 0.2 then that is what they allow. It doesn't make it right though. A lack of knowledge is no defence (and I don't mean you old bean, I mean the site ).

 

[Sacarathe]

Hey guys

This is an interesting discussion - so from what I can see, this is one example I know:

Urban Assault has a strict 400FPS 0.2g limit on Snipers - it's partially CQB and if you are sticking a sniper out of a ground floor window and cap someone in the side of the head.. ouch.

So that means the Joule limit is 1.49 - and they ask me to Chrono using 0.2g

Then I want to field 0.32 due to the more powerful spring, I should be chronoing at approx. 315fps so I don't go over this 1.49 limit. If I Chrono at say 325, that would be 1.57joules, which is an equivalent power of 410-415fps, so in theory hot for the weight of BB.

Yes.

Though Joules usually increases you can't predict what the change in energy will be when a heavier BB is put into a gun. For example, a heavier BB may exit with less force if the gun had insufficient air volume to push the BB out of the muzzle.

Generally though, if you assume that a heavier BB will take more energy (a safe but not necessarily reliable assumption) any time someone meets the site chrono limit with 0.2 and then puts in heavier ammunition will firing they will be hot.

Or will they....

Joule creep is one issue, the hop setting is entirely another. You can take a gun with the hop set for a heavier weight and have it pass chrono every time on 0.2g and fail every time on the weight it's set for. 

Turning the hop off is no the solution - chrono with player's BB weight is.

 

[callumbagshaw]

I agree that sites should take joule creep into consideration but I've never even been to a site that checks your eye pro is up to scratch, never mind calculating a slight increase in muzzle velocity.

Seems a bit daft for a marshal to be using time up calculating velocity when the root of all of this is keeping players safe and marshals aren't even checking that eye pro is capable of taking a hit!

 

[Sacarathe]

I agree that sites should take joule creep into consideration but I've never even been to a site that checks your eye pro is up to scratch, never mind calculating a slight increase in muzzle velocity.

Seems a bit daft for a marshal to be using time up calculating velocity when the root of all of this is keeping players safe and marshals aren't even checking that eye pro is capable of taking a hit!

The mall does, I've seen them confiscate eye pro and test it (and wreck it).

 

[callumbagshaw]

The mall does, I've seen them confiscate eye pro and test it (and wreck it).

Maybe some of the northern sites should take note.

 

[AndyDynamic]

I was recently at a very popular site - I won't say which one in case it was just a mistake - but when chronoing the marshal did not ask me what weight of BB I was using. 

Normally I chrono with 0.2g and I use 0.25g because I always thought this was the correct way, and on this instance I had left 0.25 in the mag and was surprised to see my FPS lower than normal (303fps as opposed to around 330). But I could've been using 0.3s for all he knew.

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

 

[callumbagshaw]

I was recently at a very popular site - I won't say which one in case it was just a mistake - but when chronoing the marshal did not ask me what weight of BB I was using. 

 Normally I chrono with 0.2g and I use 0.25g because I always thought this was the correct way, and on this instance I had left 0.25 in the mag and was surprised to see my FPS lower than normal (303fps as opposed to around 330). But I could've been using 0.3s for all he knew.

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

I'm always concerned that marshals don't ACTUALLY CHECK the bb weight pre-crono anyway, they just ask.

We all know Airsoft is a game of honor and honesty, hopefully players are always honest about what weight bb they're using - but we've all seen non-hit taking all to often, so we know just how "honest" our little community is.... 

 

[Sacarathe]

I was a little puzzled by that and also a little concerned.

And you're right to be. 

You might point out to that site that people could be using illegal (automatic) guns, and note that if the police stopped by....

 

[AndyDynamic]

And you're right to be. 

You might point out to that site that people could be using illegal (automatic) guns, and note that if the police stopped by....

I will certainly mention it to the organisers if it happens again, it could've simply been a one-off. We were being outranged quite a lot, and yes I accept there are many things that can affect range, but it does make you think if some are stretching the rules a little.

 

[Rogerborg]

If sites aren't putting BBs in themselves, then there's little point in them doing chronoing.

Big ups to the Depot.  They always put in their own BBs, and test and tag every gun.  The marshals do actively check for tags and re-run chrono tests during the game - I got checked twice on Sunday.

The site limit there is 0.25g, so it's fairly reasonable to test with 0.2g.  Where they're taking it on trust is that nobody is slipping 0.5g into their HPAs.

Urban Assault has a strict 400FPS 0.2g limit on Snipers [...] So that means the Joule limit is 1.49

With respect, I'd say that the site limit there is 400fps with 0.2g.  If they meant to specify a Joule limit, they could specify a Joule limit.

I wish that wasn't the case.  They should specify Joules, and should test with heavy BBs.  But if shoulds were horses, beggars would ride.

 

[Seany.exe]

Not sure what the argument is tbh.

Just set the chrono to the weight you're using and switch the output to joules. Stop thinking about FPS entirely.

Anyone willing to use JC to get an "advantage" is just being a dick.

What was the first rule again?

 

[Gtech]

For anyone who struggles to understand why could Joule Creep matters then  picture this.

1. In one hand I have a bath sponge, the other holds a brick.
   
2. I throw them both at your head, at the same speed (fps)
   
3. Which one hurts more and consequently retains more energy (joules)?
   

As this example shows, the speed of an item thrown, is irrelevant until you consider the weight of it.

This is why FPS is outdated and highly inaccurate unless you're all using the same weight BBs (like in CQB)

I've long spoken about the importance of switching to Joules to airsoft sites, most of them don't understand the concept or switch back to their insurance paperwork which still defines FPS (From the paintball industry). With the increase of HPA systems, and with certain bolt action rifles having larger air volumes, joule creep can give significant advantage and pose a higher risk to those who are unaware.

The photo I've attached shows a perfect example, 

• Let me remind you that in the UK most sites only allow 2.32j for bolt actions (500fps on 0.2g) but the law is 2.5j (519 on 0.2g)
  
• In the top left box we see a sniper rifle chrono at 497fps on a 0.2g - this is entirely site legal and comes in at 2.3Joules.
  
• However, in the top right photo you will see that when they switched to 0.4g, the fps only dropped to 417fps which equates to 3.23J. (This is like being hit with a 590fps on a 0.2g)
  
• Note: The bottom photos show his adjusted weights to remove the advantage and stick within the limits.
  

To resolve that, you chrono on the weight you intend to use. 

It's safer, fairer and most importantly it's now the measurement used by law.

(Police & Crime Act from May 2017 defines our limits in joules)

https://airsoftnation.co.uk/stop-fps/

https://airsoftnation.co.uk/fps-calculator/ (This is for legal limits, and not specifically site limits due to the fact they're not universal)

View attachment 36242

 

[AndyDynamic]

The photo I've attached shows a perfect example, 

• Let me remind you that in the UK most sites only allow 2.32j for bolt actions (500fps on 0.2g) but the law is 2.5j (519 on 0.2g)
  
• In the top left box we see a sniper rifle chrono at 497fps on a 0.2g - this is entirely site legal and comes in at 2.3Joules.
  
• However, in the top right photo you will see that when they switched to 0.4g, the fps only dropped to 417fps which equates to 3.23J. (This is like being hit with a 590fps on a 0.2g)
  
• Note: The bottom photos show his adjusted weights to remove the advantage and stick within the limits.
  

That is a fantastic example, ouch 3.23j is going to hurt! Especially those that like to stretch the distance of MED - but lets not go down that rabbit hole.

 

[Seany.exe]

Aye sticking to "FPS" to measure power sucks. My main site (Worthing Airsoft, formerly AEG worthing) switched to joules a while back, chronod on the ammo you're using, every gun tested and tagged before the day starts and will test you again if theres any suspicion.

I haven't personally seen a single problem with people complaining about hot weapons. Though i'm sure it's happened lol.

Personally, we can discuss it till we're blue in the face and ready to slap a bitch. But it should be down to the sites itself to ensure that correct/accurate readings are taken to keep stuff within the site limits.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

The problem with joule testing is that your relying on a players honesty in terms of the weight they're using. I've heard plenty of chatter at certain sites in the line for the chrono along the lines of "yeah she puts out 328, on .3's" when the site limit is 1j.

At least with the .2@328 the site can if needed pop some ammo of a known weight in the gun and joule creep aside it'll confirm any suspicions true or false. Although i suppose you could do the same thing with whatever weight they're claiming to use.

Of course this is assuming the site has anything like a reasonable attitude to chrono'ing guns properly, which is very variable, some sites i've been to have never chrono'd anyone ever, some only chrono strangers (quelle surprise when the regulars are all using very spicy guns), and some chrono everyone but dont bother to ask about bb weight.

 

[Seany.exe]

Well, the entire sport is an honor system, if people are gonna lie about the weight BB they're using they're likely to play like complete cunts. At which point they will be called out and very likely chronod again where they will get caught ou and very likely banned.

So yeah sticking to fps in any aspect is just a bad call

But then i've not played too many sites. The ones I have (Worthing, the mall and a place over in lewes that is closed now) where all pretty hot on chronoing etc so I can't say i've ever come across a site lax on power limits

 

[Rogerborg]

The problem with joule testing is that your relying on a players honesty in terms of the weight they're using

Which is why sites should provide their own BBs, and they should be 0.4g+.

Would anyone be shocked if I said that I've played at a site where I never saw anyone being chronoed, can't recall limits even being mentioned during briefings in either fps or Joules, and sometimes a chrono wasn't even put out for players to self test with?

I put a "500fps" spring in my MB-03.  If I hadn't gone and asked for use of a chrono, nobody on site, including myself, would have discovered that it was shooting 600 fps with 0.2g, or 3.33J before creep.

Some degree of trust is necessary, but you can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Gtech]

If they can Chrono 2800 players at NAF with their own weights on a Friday Night/Saturday morning, it shouldn't take too much effort for a site to put in the same amount of effort.

As soon as Insurance Companies catch up, it will be changed. For sites who don't chrono or check thoroughly, they're essentially uninsured in the event of a screwup. In addition to that, they're probably likely to be removed from UKARA as an approved site since they do have a set of standards (like having valid insurance) to join.