Any experts? Maybe a engineering flaw in the bucking design.

[vitor]

HEllo. My name is Vitor i am from Brazil and i dont play airsoft much but for a decade i am really invested in the inner working of the guns.
two weeks ago i quit my job and now i have plenty time to investigate some things... and hope to make good use of this free time before it ends.

So

THere is one thing that i noticed on aegs design wich i cant find any real solid technical information about

I refer to the bucking works
If you map its working step by step on your mind right now i know you will probably stuck to the most wide spreaded information wich is the following:

1 - the BB go up from the mag to the barrel
2 - the nozzle push the BB forward and stop letting it attached perfectly in the middle of the bucking lip
3 - the air come out from the nozzle and create high pressure before the BB until the pressure surpasses the LIP resistance and shoot it out passing trough the HOP contact applying desired spin to the BB


I really hope someone else noticed what is wrong with that ( im not talking about my bad english)

When i decided to inspect with my bare eyes and hands i noticed that BBs dont stay in the bucking lip
In fact
The air nozzle occupies the spot on contact with the bucking
There is no physical possibilities of the air be applied to the BB from a stationary position at the bucking lip.
The actual situation i will describe

1 - open nozzle and the BB go up from the mag to the barrel tip

2 - the air nozzle push the BB beyond the lip to inside the bucking where the BB will:
_in a continuous cycle, full auto, keep the inertia forward and be blasted with air before it touches the HOP patch

_in a resting scenario alike in the semi fire the BB will stop only because of the HOP patch but will be loose in the space inside the bucking between the air nozzle tip (wich is beyond the lip) and the HOP bit
_Or equals the above but being held in place by the HOP patch and not the lip
_Or the air nozzle cycle back out of the bucking and stops open allowing the BB to rolls back and and stay in the LIP only to get pushed again later either by the air nozzle or by a double feeded BB.
_ Were you have zero hop applied the BB freely roll out of the barrel



If i am correct This explains why expensive precisely manufactured aeg parts still makes only 10 straight hits on 15 shots

If i am wrong in my discovery please let us know your thesis
BUt im well sure of what i am saying

I checked the bucking at GBB pistols And spring action Snipes the design work as intended but the standard AEG bucking seems a flawed design to me.

All that said i am here to ask if anyone found any way around that problem to achieve perfect air transfer and consistency
I've seen some videos of how to put a VSR bucking in a AEG barrel and i wonder if that would solve all of that.

Lets figure it out togheter
I have a AEG v3 AK cyma with a standard bucking and 19,5mm air nozzle flat tip


In a perfect scenario i hope that someone pops up with a video of a see-trough HOP-UP chamber bucking and barrel and a slow motion camera showing every aspect of it all working togheter... but lifes not perfect

 

[Adolf Hamster]

If i'm reading this right, you're suggesting that there's a gap between the bb's resting point and the protrusion that imparts spin?

That's not strictly a design flaw, there are non-standard patterns of bucking where the protrusion is a seperate component some ways down the barrel.

 

[The_Lord_Poncho]

Yes, I'm not what the issue is here either - but credit to giving such detailed thought to things. I was always under the belief that the purpose of the bucking lips is to primarily to seal against the nozzle - not as I think you are describing - to hold the BB in place. A decent Hop chamber (and failing that some PTFE tape) holds the forward edge of the bucking in place tight around the inner barrel to prevent air leaks.

I'm not really sure what problem you are trying to solve - is it that the BB will have some potential movement in the bucking, meaning the alignment of the jet of air from the nozzle won't be perfectly dead centre to the BB every time? If so, I suppose that’s a theoretical fact, but the differences that very small allowable movement makes would be negligible, certainly against other must more fundamental limitations of a smoothbore low powered air gun firing tiny and light little plastic balls outdoors.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

it's also worth noting that there are cases of systems that don't operate with the firing occurring immediately after nozzle closure.

i'm not 100% on the timings but a gun with sufficient precocking likely has the nozzle forwards round chambered before the trigger pull, and for sure dual solenoid hpa systems can operate in "closed bolt" mode whereby the round is chambered until the trigger is pulled.

in both cases the bb will sit happily until fired.

it is true that in some setups having minimal/no hop applied the bb could roll out the barrel, and the weird energy behavior when the hop is off is my primary objection to sites insisting you chrono like that, as more than once i've had guns that could barely fire with the hop off but would be perfectly normal performance when the hop was set for actual shooting.

also 10/15 shots being good is kinda crappy performance, sure a functionally smoothbore air musket is never going to be moa accurate but you can get better consistency than that without needing a truly top of the line build.

 

[vitor]

I just want to be sure and fully understand the real behavior of the BB inside the bucking

Im trying to point that BBs dont have the same behavior everytime and in every situation inside the bucking
BB will be anywhere inside the bucking before the shoot
I described all situations i could think of on the last topics 1; 2; and the parts after the underline _

And i think this limits efficiency
Either final speed and grouping
And that making it better could result in better airsofts for us. Possibly?

Yeah maybe i am too much over a plastic ball shooter but anything i learn here i apply later at somewhere else in my life so every knowledge is welcome

 

[george1976]

From my tinkering with my airsoft toys I could see that the BB rolls out of the barrel if no hop is applied, so from my limited experience I can say that the hop stops the BB and the nozzle releases the air pressure propelling the BB inside the barrel. The fact that you may get only 10 out of 15 shots accurate has to do with how well the BB's are polished, weight distribution of that BB, barrel imperfections and cleanliness, wind etc. It's a random affair that you cannot make perfect I'm afraid

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I just want to be sure and fully understand the real behavior of the BB inside the bucking

Im trying to point that BBs dont have the same behavior everytime and in every situation inside the bucking
BB will be anywhere inside the bucking before the shoot
I described all situations i could think of on the last topics 1; 2; and the parts after the underline _

And i think this limits efficiency
Either final speed and grouping
And that making it better could result in better airsofts for us. Possibly?

Yeah maybe i am too much over a plastic ball shooter but anything i learn here i apply later at somewhere else in my life so every knowledge is welcome

Click to shrink...

it's good to be thinking about these things, you're in good company here many of us are the kind of people who like to ponder about how to achieve the best pew.

without wishing to sound too insensitive, it seems that English isn't your first language and unfortunately this is making it a little tricky to follow the conversation. so apologies if our responses might be missing the point you're trying to make.

on the broad topic of consistency however, you do have a point, it is absolutely the case that the core of what we call "accuracy" in airsoft is reliant on consistency. unfortunately whilst no one single cause of inconsistency is a particularly difficult thing to understand, the fact that there are so many small things all happening simultaneously can make the topic become quite complex.

for example if we focus on just bb placement in the hop, this would be affected by the type of cycling (semi vs auto, precocked vs standard), the placement of the gearbox relative to the hop unit, how much motion the internals (or indeed the externals) of the gun allow to happen, the consistency and quality of ammo, the type of magazine (aka "midcap syndrome" where a strong pressure on the bb feed stack makes the nozzle harder to close), the energy level you're firing at, the particular hop/barrel/bucking combo you're using etc etc.

and that's just focusing on the nozzle's ability to push the round into the chamber, let alone what happens after.

 

[Cannonfodder]

As already posted, the lips on the rubber are to get a good air seal around the nozzle, the bb is held in place by the hop nub. Yes the bb being in a slightly different place may cause some inconsistencies but they're inconsequential compared to other things which have a far bigger effect on accuracy etc.

If you're getting fliers from 1 in 3 shots fired I'd suggest your gun has bigger problems than what's being discussed here

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Yes the bb being in a slightly different place may cause some inconsistencies but they're inconsequential compared to other things which have a far bigger effect on accuracy etc.

Click to shrink...

this is a fair point, there's a definite subset of tinkering that falls into the "getting the gun good enough to even notice the difference is the hard part" category.