Someone doesn't like UKARA, or here we go again

I mean the site I go to is UKARA reg, they stick to the time frame, but they don't charge. As long as you have played once in 6 months at the site they renew it every year for you.
 
TheFull9 said:
Being entirely uninterested in having to go to the same place 3 times in a year to maintain a defence, the basic idea resonates greatly with me personally.

I've not been anywhere for some time that didn't require you to pay for a site membership once you had your 3 games done in order for them to put you on the (super non-transparent) UKARA database. I presume they exist given the comments, but I've not been to one, so that element is a non-issue for me.

Will it hold up, be run effectively and securely look after people's data? Only time will tell.
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I'm entirely with you here. And a side rant: The VCRA is absolutely ridiculous when you look at the silly loopholes:
  • The Lethargic Lethality Loop: Any adult can walk in and buy a .22 air pistol with no defence. But to buy a 1-joule plastic toy just because it's black, you have to prove you're a skirmisher. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
  • The Onerous Ownership Own: Under the VCRA, it is an offence to buy, sell, import, or manufacture a Realistic Imitation Firearm (RIF) without a defence. But it is 100% legal to own one. If a mate gifts you a RIF for free, absolutely no laws are broken and UKARA route obsolete. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
  • The Terrible Two-Tone Trap: Anyone over 18 can buy a bright blue two-tone replica. But the second you paint it black or swap the panels to match your kit, the law claims you are 'manufacturing a firearm'. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
I am not saying there shouldn't be regulations - there absolutely should. But UKARA is not a government license and it is not mentioned in the VCRA - when I first started out, I was sort of under the impression it was. :cool: Yes I dun gawt ma YOUKARA laasance Maarleen!

As far as I understand it, the law simply states that to buy a RIF, you need a 'valid defence' - which means proving you need it for a permitted activity like film, theatre, historical re-enactment, or airsoft skirmishing at an insured site. UKARA is just a privately owned database created by retailers (aka Frank) to track that defence. But it’s essentially a VCRA cash cow that some sites use to lock you into their own memberships as you have to play with them 3 times over a silly amount of months. Not against site memberships though or sites using it - all well meaning!

But I mention all that because it's exactly why alternative platforms and systems have popped up. Not saying I agree with all of these, who is behind them and their intentions either. But I do believe they are technically legal - and while different to "Airsoft Defence", for example Justcos still exists after 9 years unhindered. The VCRA doesn’t mandate UKARA; it mandates evidence that you are an active player. A digital platform like Airsoft Defence does exactly that: it acts as a secure, legally compliant registry that tracks your game attendance across multiple sites to prove your skirmisher status. In a way, it breaks the monopoly and stops players from being forced to play one specific woodland site just to stay on a database.

Just before there is a potential pile in :ROFLMAO: - I will reiterate that I do believe in the regulation of airsoft, I just think it should be sensible and consistent. :)

Cheers.
 
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ruskitseller said:
  • The Lethargic Lethality Loop: Any adult can walk in and buy a .22 air pistol with no defence. But to buy a 1-joule plastic toy just because it's black, you have to prove you're a skirmisher. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
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With no proof of a "certain" policing system in the UK, this is a practical example of the two-tier legislation system. Airguns were protected because there were enthusiasts who happened to also be lobbyists making sizeable party donations. Airsoft had no such lobbying so sales of airsoft toys were controlled more strictly with VCRA.
 
Couple of thought spring to mind .
Who is respnsible for updating attendance ? if it's self done then that is open to all sorts of abuse . If the game site does it , that is an extra workload for the staff , or if there is some sort of a siwpey card that you use then the site will presumably have a cost attached to the card reader .
 
Colin Allen said:
This could turn out to be a very positive development if enough sites sign up to it. At the moment, there is no point me joining as none of the sites I use are listed; in addition, I note that one of the sites is a range attached to Platoon Stores and another is an Attack Sense target range, neither of which should really qualify as playing airsoft.
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Its weird that the sites platoon stores support with an on site shop havent signed up
 
ruskitseller said:
I'm entirely with you here. And a side rant: The VCRA is absolutely ridiculous when you look at the silly loopholes:
  • The Lethargic Lethality Loop: Any adult can walk in and buy a .22 air pistol with no defence. But to buy a 1-joule plastic toy just because it's black, you have to prove you're a skirmisher. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
  • The Onerous Ownership Own: Under the VCRA, it is an offence to buy, sell, import, or manufacture a Realistic Imitation Firearm (RIF) without a defence. But it is 100% legal to own one. If a mate gifts you a RIF for free, absolutely no laws are broken and UKARA route obsolete. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
  • The Terrible Two-Tone Trap: Anyone over 18 can buy a bright blue two-tone replica. But the second you paint it black or swap the panels to match your kit, the law claims you are 'manufacturing a firearm'. ̄\_(ツ)_/ ̄
I am not saying there shouldn't be regulations - there absolutely should. But UKARA is not a government license and it is not mentioned in the VCRA - when I first started out, I was sort of under the impression it was. :cool: Yes I dun gawt ma YOUKARA laasance Maarleen!

As far as I understand it, the law simply states that to buy a RIF, you need a 'valid defence' - which means proving you need it for a permitted activity like film, theatre, historical re-enactment, or airsoft skirmishing at an insured site. UKARA is just a privately owned database created by retailers (aka Frank) to track that defence. But it’s essentially a VCRA cash cow that some sites use to lock you into their own memberships as you have to play with them 3 times over a silly amount of months. Not against site memberships though or sites using it - all well meaning!

But I mention all that because it's exactly why alternative platforms and systems have popped up. Not saying I agree with all of these, who is behind them and their intentions either. But I do believe they are technically legal - and while different to "Airsoft Defence", for example Justcos still exists after 9 years unhindered. The VCRA doesn’t mandate UKARA; it mandates evidence that you are an active player. A digital platform like Airsoft Defence does exactly that: it acts as a secure, legally compliant registry that tracks your game attendance across multiple sites to prove your skirmisher status. In a way, it breaks the monopoly and stops players from being forced to play one specific woodland site just to stay on a database.

Just before there is a potential pile in :ROFLMAO: - I will reiterate that I do believe in the regulation of airsoft, I just think it should be sensible and consistent. :)

Cheers.
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Yes you are correct, BUT
Big BUT.

As someone that recently got back into airsoft it was IMPOSSIBLE, repeat, IMPOSSIBLE to buy a RIF (or very much a PITA)
I have/am.

- a member of 2 historical reeenacting groups, one i am one of the armourers and shell makers for (royal artillery with live 25 pdrs) I have membership to both, plus many historical/reenacting photos of myself in kit.
- member of my local gun club/NRA bisley shooter (ID cards for both)
- Shotgun,Explosive and FAC certs.

none of that matters to 95% of retailers, and the 5% that did care, i didn’t want to get from. The only exception was perhaps walking up to something like airsoft world at military odyssey show and buying it in person... but who wants to wait?

its dumb, beyond dumb, but there it is! This new thing sounds good on paper but we'll see how it goes, they have some big names on their list (if true) my basic details are at some point all over the internet so people the quote "mah privacy" are dumb, unless they live in a shed! They'e probably signed upto something and thats been leaked and/or sold anyway.
being able to lookup other peoples UKARA works, I like that.

My site is quite nice in that i dont need any kind of memberships, throw them the 3 dates i attended, sling 'em the £10 fee and boom UKARA, the worst part was waiting.
of course when i was playing 2004-2010, which was partly PRE-UKARA 90% of retailers didnt give a rats arse about UKARA, or they knew you so it didnt matter to them, times have changed.
 
Colin Allen said:
They have an agreement to be the site vendor; they do not have a stake in them.
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Still, doesnt make sense to not sign up for something that has the potential to increase the number of players visiting the site ?.
Definitely a big selling point to not be tied to any one site for 3 games.
 
here is a list of my problems with their circular Ponzi scheme

“Paying sites for verification Game sites earn a fee for verifying players details on the system and checking ID's.”

“Investing in sites and stores We are going to provide funding and resources to help game sites and retail stores grow and improve their operations.”

“Your personal data is protected and never shared outside the verification process.”
Yet the system apparently involves:
game sites
retailers
private sellers
payment processors
platform hosting
account verification
marketplace messaging
potentially technical service providers.

'' No indexed public Privacy Policy or Terms & Conditions page''

“War chest We are setting aside funds to support and defend the sport from any legal issues that may arise in the future.”
How much is allocated?
Is it ring-fenced?
Who controls it?
What qualifies for assistance?
Could it fund Airsoft Defence Ltd's own legal disputes?
Could directors decide who receives support?
Does the fund belong to the company?
What happens to it if the company closes?

“Annual Airsoft Party.”
 
In theory it's better than ukara in most ways, but like most things sometimes good enough is good enough and the status quo will remain as it's just not worth the effort to change.

Also sites must love ukara as it guarantees them at least 3 games from everyone to begin with.

Problem starts being if places only accept it sign you up to one or the other. Which it seems to be the retailer pushing this which I would guess it's to move the cost from them to the Airsofters?

Also no way to convert a ukara to them which should be a go to for mass adoption in the market when you just launch.
 
My frequent site doesnt even charge to do UKARA, and you don't need to be a member for it either, granted they are adopting this new defence aswell but they have stated they will continue to verify for UKARA for free also.

I think it's good to have alternative methods, but also to introduce a bit of competition to these defences. Perhaps now, with this possibly looking to take over, UKARA might change thier standards to stay current, and we would see the 3 sites thing change aswell as allowing player Vs player checks via UKARA.

I think it's good to see someone out there trying to help the sport in some way, but for me, as I get my UKARA for free, it doesnt make sense for me to change right now.
 
Punisher3990 said:
I think it's good to have alternative methods, but also to introduce a bit of competition to these defences. Perhaps now, with this possibly looking to take over, UKARA might change thier standards to stay current, and we would see the 3 sites thing change aswell as allowing player Vs player checks via UKARA.
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The lack of a clear standard is annoying. My active MOD90 isn't enough to buy a RIF from a retailer, so I need to spend £55 x 3 for the matches and another £30 x 3 for transport which for a spring chicken such as myself is quite a lot of money, all to run around with a AEG that couldn't hit a barn door from 15m away.

On the other hand it's completely up to a seller on a classified as to if my MOD90 is a valid defence for them and completely unknown as to if he could be hypothetically dragged to court for it one day...
 
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