Bad Publicity?

[kasaran]

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

for every 1 happy ending for the 'good guy with a gun' story there are dozens or hundreds more where there was no good guy or it back fired on them.  imagine if the initial guy didnt have a gun? would this have gone down the same way?

Again, just like police and buses, occasionally they do manage to be where they are needed, but thats far from most often

i know its an extreme and unrelated but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24457031 does not mean everyone should be able to fly a place with next to no training.  he was lucky.  the survivors from that attack were lucky.  and im sure the pro gun lobby was all GOOD GUY WITH GUN HERO as opposed to saying 'maybe putting guns into everyones hands so easily isnt a good thing...'  perhaps those who were killed and their family may have a different perspective?

 

[Druid799]

Think it’s safe to say we’ve all reached the point where you’ve got your fore and against voters and they will never change there minds In this thread . I see absolutely no reason for anyone in this country to own an AR of any sort , you can’t hunt with it , there’s probably less than 10 public access ranges in the country you could fire it at and you certainly couldn’t have it out on display in your own home , so what is the point of wanting it ? If you want one in your hands that badly then buy a systema or some other ‘simulator’ gun , they feel and look identical to the real McCoy .

you can’t ban or control knives it’s just not possible , give me a butter knife that couldn’t cut paper with and I 100% guarantee I will return it to you in less than an hour sharp enough to shave with . So all knives are banned and everyone eats with plastic spoons , guess what all the criminals now start carrying home made shanks Instead . Few years ago ophthalmology in my local hospital had a run on prisoners being admitted from The local ‘land of stripy sunshine’ with the prongs from plastic forks stuck in the eyes and then snapped off , turned out the nick had had a massive clean up operation looking for improvised weapons and this was the result of that .

Man is inventive , if you take one way of hurting his fellow man away from him he will just invent another . So why let him have ones we know do the job very effectively when he really has no reason to have it ? 

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

If I close my eyes and throw a thousand darts at a dart board one is going to hit the bullseye eventually , does this mean from now on I can claim I can hit the bullseye with my eyes shut and everyone needs to keep there eyes shut to win at darts ? 

 

[GenuineGerman]

until the concept behind minority report becomes reality then this cannot be stopped and its best to err on the side of caution. 

Soviet Bloc countries erred on the side of caution and we called them undemocratic.

As you admit, unikely to prove a need. though without conceal carry i fail to see how owning a gun is going to protect from knife crime? (even if after that point its more likely going to be gun crime)

I would readily admit its not but if you ban knives then you haven't got knives or guns so problem solved? Probably not because the bad guys would fashion knives or 3d print guns.

If you really want to just 'own a gun' then i believe shooting clubs are the way to go.  but from what i have been told, the gun is stored in a non firing way at the club itself and not taken home.  though correct me on that if im wrong?

I believe this is correct for the most however like anything im sure there are exceptions.

Hunting in the UK is seen more as a job than a hobby (unless your riding a horse with dogs) and therefore people who hunt tend to be again, farmers or pest control (think deer culls).  there are not many i can think of that do it recreationally as we lack the space or the big game to hunt on this island.  there are no week long hikes through the wilderness and animals to live off of.  a weeklong hike would probably result in you stumbling through hundreds of farms and dozens of villages, this is a very tamed land nature wise.  the best your gonna get is maybe to go on a shoot for pheasent (have looked, bloody expensive). 

My mate does pheasant shooting, expensive hobby for sure. However i agree with your premise hunting in the UK isn't as big as the US or in Europe. 

Think it’s safe to say we’ve all reached the point where you’ve got your fore and against voters and they will never change there minds In this thread . I see absolutely no reason for anyone in this country to own an AR of any sort , you can’t hunt with it , there’s probably less than 10 public access ranges in the country you could fire it at and you certainly couldn’t have it out on display in your own home , so what is the point of wanting it ? If you want one in your hands that badly then buy a systema or some other ‘simulator’ gun , they feel and look identical to the real McCoy .

you can’t ban or control knives it’s just not possible , give me a butter knife that couldn’t cut paper with and I 100% guarantee I will return it to you in less than an hour sharp enough to shave with . So all knives are banned and everyone eats with plastic spoons , guess what all the criminals now start carrying home made shanks Instead . Few years ago ophthalmology in my local hospital had a run on prisoners being admitted from The local ‘land of stripy sunshine’ with the prongs from plastic forks stuck in the eyes and then snapped off , turned out the nick had had a massive clean up operation looking for improvised weapons and this was the result of that .

Man is inventive , if you take one way of hurting his fellow man away from him he will just invent another . So why let him have ones we know do the job very effectively when he really has no reason to have it ? 

Yeah i think you're absolutely right, some will be for some against however other things we will whole heartedly agree on. I'm very clear that the laws in this country won't ever change to loosen gun control and will only get tighter as time goes on. My argument really stems from the erosion of freedoms we have and laws that are created to protect us from evils doers end up hurting law abiding people more. Guns yeah if they banned them all so what we can carry on with out them what about the lunatic with a CYMA MP5 who robs his local post office or the Lad with his Glock 17 using it the park to impress his mates. Before long they will be coming for us.

 

[kasaran]

Soviet Bloc countries erred on the side of caution and we called them undemocratic.

theres other reasons to call them undemocratic.  and i dont see how comparisons to Soviet or even modern Russia are relivant here?  they were an occupying force, claiming another country, of course uprisings were a concern and happened in many places.  again, we lack the unease at our government that makes the prospect of an armed militia appealing.  and unless your scottish, you i assume dont feel that westminster is opressing you (execpt for the ability to own military hardware it seems)

I would readily admit its not but if you ban knives then you haven't got knives or guns so problem solved? Probably not because the bad guys would fashion knives or 3d print guns.

so by that logic lets give up? open the flood gates? have some purge like state of being where everyone on a whim can own and brandish any sort of weapon of any sort of capability?  i dont see how this is a point in support of anything? just nihilism as to the futility that bad guys will find a way

 

[Lozart]

I personally don’t think saying that banning alcohol or Smoking is puerile and my reason being the following. I should say that smoking is self inflicted and would completely agree on that however I think with alcohol it’s a different argument. Let’s take guns out of argument briefly 39% of the 516,000 odd violent crimes last year in England and Wales where alcohol related so for me there is an argument to for banning alcohol as  one third of people who commit Violent crimes under the influence of alcohol. Bearing in mind this is violent crime not drink driving or just being drunk in public. 
 

I think it's worth pointing out the UK definition of "violent crime" here https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/violent-crime#:~:text=Violent crime covers a variety,and corrosive substances like acid.

This is something that comes up time and again in the UK vs USA debate on guns. The US definition of violent crime is far narrower and more specific https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/crimes/violent-crime#:~:text=In a violent crime%2C a,and impact of violent crimes.

Yes, the idea that 39% of violent crimes involve alcohol is a frightening statistic but you need to factor into that how many of those "violent crimes" are street scuffles or just bad language and threats. No actual harm needs to be caused for a common assault charge! Now, granted there is a good argument to say that if weapons (be they firearms or bladed) get involved then the consequence of those drunken arguments will escalate, the fact that they don't escalate shows how few people feel the need to go out tooled up.

This is also an interesting read https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

Particularly telling is the percentages vs absolute numbers; in reference to the number of homicides the increase is stated as 10%, unless you exclude the 39 immigrants found dead in a lorry in which case it drops to 3%. The fact that 39 deaths can have that great in impact on the overall increase in deaths shows that actually we have quite a low rate of homicide. The media would present you with a "200% increase in xxx" if the total number went from 1 to 2 so be careful with the statistics. They will always be manipulated to fit the narrative.

 

[colinjallen]

The media would present you with a "200% increase in xxx" if the total number went from 1 to 2 so be careful with the statistics. They will always be manipulated to fit the narrative.

That would be very poor reporting as it is a 100% increase.

 

[Lozart]

That would be very poor reporting as it is a 100% increase.

My point exactly!

 

[Dogsbody100]

for every 1 happy ending for the 'good guy with a gun' story there are dozens or hundreds more where there was no good guy or it back fired on them.  imagine if the initial guy didnt have a gun? would this have gone down the same way?

Again, just like police and buses, occasionally they do manage to be where they are needed, but thats far from most often

i know its an extreme and unrelated but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24457031 does not mean everyone should be able to fly a place with next to no training.  he was lucky.  the survivors from that attack were lucky.  and im sure the pro gun lobby was all GOOD GUY WITH GUN HERO as opposed to saying 'maybe putting guns into everyones hands so easily isnt a good thing...'  perhaps those who were killed and their family may have a different perspective?

You’re right that is an extremely unrelated story, in fact I know it well and remember the raf sea king crew that talked him down, great story (if I’m recalling the right one!).

I really can’t see where we’re going with it though, how does that advocate for everyone flying a plane with no training? That was an unfortunate set of circumstances and the guy that landed the plane was a novice with no experience. It could have been very different. 

Williford on the other hand was a licensed gun owner and was absolutely trained and had all the correct credentials for the weapon he had. 
 

Nowhere does that advocate for ‘everyone’ having a gun either incidentally.

The point was that sometimes a good guy with a gun makes a difference and indeed if googled the fact bears itself out in American states that allow open or concealed carry. 
 

Does this mean ‘give everyone a gun’? Of course not, no ones saying that. However with correct checks and balances in place it’s a viable concept. 
 

You don’t want a gun? Great, don’t have one, no ones forcing you but some do for sporting purposes, I used to and can attest to its good effect on discipline and even relaxation can you believe. 

 

[Tommikka]

With regards to the whole ‘good guy with a gun’ thing, see what you think of this 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting

And another good guy with a gun, school armed security who ran away when the reason he had a gun occurred:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48521988
 

Better results have occurred when we have good guys with a Narwhal tusk and fire extinguisher, or good guys with harsh words:

“Don’t come here” or  “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv”

Somewhere out there is footage of experiments of ‘good guy with gun’ scenarios, they mostly resulted in more casualty’s

Having a gun in the right place at the right time is one thing, you need to be able to use it properly in a stressful situation. 

 

[GenuineGerman]

theres other reasons to call them undemocratic.  and i dont see how comparisons to Soviet or even modern Russia are relivant here?  they were an occupying force, claiming another country, of course uprisings were a concern and happened in many places.  again, we lack the unease at our government that makes the prospect of an armed militia appealing.  and unless your scottish, you i assume dont feel that westminster is opressing you (execpt for the ability to own military hardware it seems)

im not specifically talking about soviet or Russians what im saying is the the SED in East German decided they did think people were going to come back to East Germany after taking a trip to the west so they decided to build a massive wall, man it with armed guards .just to err on the side of caution. To me erring on the side of caution is totally undemocratic and criminalises whole populations.

 

[Spartan09]

 If you really want to just 'own a gun' then i believe shooting clubs are the way to go.  but from what i have been told, the gun is stored in a non firing way at the club itself and not taken home.  though correct me on that if im wrong?

Not exactly...

If you have your firearms certificate and the appropriate security, then you can keep your firearms lockes at your house.

Only exceptions to that (for firearms) are Section 7 (pistols) and section 5 firearms that are otherwise illegal (such as machine guns...  which can only be held by people that have been thrloroughly vetted by the home office)

So if i were to have my section 1 FAC, and own, for example, a lee enfield, then i can keep it at my house in an appropriate gun safe, and with the ammo locked away seperatly.  I can then take it to a shooting range, sign it in to say its being used there (along with any extra checks that may be required by the gun range themselves), and at the end of the day take it home again and lock it away.

As long as the gun is kept in a case during transport, and the ammo kept in a seperate case, there is no issue in carrying it to the gun range to use.

 

[jsmithski]

So the percentage of gun deaths out of recorded offences 0.34% that is how many result in one loss of life

Knife deaths account of 0.55% or knife related offences.    

and by those stats you are 4.88 times more likely to be victim of a knife crime. Makes sense when you consider availability. 

But with the gun offences being so much fewer, it is only slightly less likely to be fatal (0.21%).

Shows how much more effective guns are at killing people.  But then that is their only purpose.  

Your using  the logic that you feel the gun man is going to miss.  Is that something you want to bet your life on? 

Personally as i said previously.  You have a chance to out run or fight back with a knife man.  And for practicl purposes.  Its only the people with a meter of the knife man at risk.  Not everyone within 50 metres etc  thats just my view on it.  See my earlier reference to the isis knife attacks in london a couple years back.

I need to comment on that, I’m sorry. 
 

1. You assume when people get guns they become murderers. Because for criminals it does not make any difference if guns are legal or not, easily available or not - they have them anyway.

2. You can’t fight back a man with a knife. I’m sorry but this is BS. Ever been to a knife fight? I wish I could show you how knife fight ends for someone unarmed, even mma fighters, police officers etc.

 

[kasaran]

I need to comment on that, I’m sorry. 
 

1. You assume when people get guns they become murderers. Because for criminals it does not make any difference if guns are legal or not, easily available or not - they have them anyway.

2. You can’t fight back a man with a knife. I’m sorry but this is BS. Ever been to a knife fight? I wish I could show you how knife fight ends for someone unarmed, even mma fighters, police officers etc.

1. where do i assume that? my point is that the death rate for attacks of the sort would increase massively, as the used weapons severity is higher. 

But as you bring it up i reckon such altications would increase.  imagine throwing an gun into all those occasions where conflict occurs and neither party feel they can physically best the other?   how likely would one or both parties brandish said arm as the ultimate trump card?  Secondly, im sure more people would be capable make the snap decission to shoot someone from a distance at a moment of stress (even a relatively short one) than would get right into their face to stab them.

2. maybe not fight but you could definately run, or barricade a door as you cant stab through doors...  as for fighting, yes, you would have a major disadvantage.  but then you could arm yourself with a stick, narwhale tusk , chair or whatever. improvised weapons can work in knife fights, anything that stops them from closing the gap to you.  could you do that with a guy armed with a gun? no, it would be that indianna jones scene, but less comical.

 

[Druid799]

imagine throwing an gun into all those occasions where conflict occurs and neither party feel they can physically best the other?   how likely would one or both parties brandish said arm as the ultimate trump card?  

Think it’s safe to say we ALL know one if not more people that on paper would very successfully pass the check’s to have what ever but equally we also know they’d be swanning around with a permanent hard on due to the fact they DO have a gun , and more than likely brandish it in a confrontation ?

 

[jsmithski]

Think it’s safe to say we ALL know one if not more people that on paper would very successfully pass the check’s to have what ever but equally we also know they’d be swanning around with a permanent hard on due to the fact they DO have a gun , and more than likely brandish it in a confrontation ?

I’m not that sure about that, let me give you an example. In Poland black powder guns are completely legal and don’t require you to even register them with the police (unlike modern firearms which require you to obtain a permit, pass medical exams etc). So I can now go to a store, buy a black powder revolver, some 10mm lead bullets, black powder, primers and (what is also legal) walk around the city with my revolver on me. Guess what. Since 2009 iirc when that law has been passed only one person has been shot using black powder rifle. One. Your arguments are invalid.

1. where do i assume that? my point is that the death rate for attacks of the sort would increase massively, as the used weapons severity is higher. 

IDK, maybe it’s Britain-related. You guys need check where those knife attacks are coming from, we don’t have a knife-killing pandemic over here.

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

2. maybe not fight but you could definately run, or barricade a door as you cant stab through doors...  as for fighting, yes, you would have a major disadvantage.  but then you could arm yourself with a stick, narwhale tusk , chair or whatever. improvised weapons can work in knife fights, anything that stops them from closing the gap to you.  could you do that with a guy armed with a gun? no, it would be that indianna jones scene, but less comical.

Close the gap, get back, attack!!!!

“Goddam right I’m a real instructor, I’m a real good one!”

 

[jsmithski]

Close the gap, get back, attack!!!!

“Goddam right I’m a real instructor, I’m a real good one!”

I would only add that it’s probably much more feasible to have a concealed small 9mm pistol than walking around with a hammer or axe. But that’s just me.

 

[GenuineGerman]

I would only add that it’s probably much more feasible to have a concealed small 9mm pistol than walking around with a hammer or axe. But that’s just me.

It’s also very easy to conceal a clasp knife or a small kitchen knife 

 

[jsmithski]

It’s also very easy to conceal a clasp knife or a small kitchen knife 

Sure, but a knife requires a bit more skills than a handgun and is very poor as a personal protection device. Remember about the physical advantage, you won’t scare a 120kg thug by brandishing a knife.

 

[kasaran]

I’m not that sure about that, let me give you an example. In Poland black powder guns are completely legal and don’t require you to even register them with the police (unlike modern firearms which require you to obtain a permit, pass medical exams etc). So I can now go to a store, buy a black powder revolver, some 10mm lead bullets, black powder, primers and (what is also legal) walk around the city with my revolver on me. Guess what. Since 2009 iirc when that law has been passed only one person has been shot using black powder rifle. One. Your arguments are invalid.

IDK, maybe it’s Britain-related. You guys need check where those knife attacks are coming from, we don’t have a knife-killing pandemic over here.

ok, i like finding stats.  first off https://www.statista.com/statistics/1120240/poland-recorded-and-detected-crimes/  has a lovely quote: The number of recorded crimes in Poland in the years 1999 - 2019 showed a downward trend, from over one million in 1999 to 507.2 thousand in 2019. At the same time, the number of detected crimes has just decreased over the years.

thats the same everywhere,  not everything gets reported. But it is interesting the researcher felt a need to highlight it (perhaps a certain ranking lower down is why?).  gun crime generally does get reported, its hard to hide gun wounds.  and a quick google describes: May 2019 when a student wounded two people using an unlicensed black powder firearm and some fireworks. 

im guessing thats what you are refering to?  with black powder stuff, i guess its just not so popular, not cool or snappy.  can imagine a wanna be gang man puling out his antique gun and being ridiculed as a wanna be pirate or cowboy.  but quick internet search does show a suprising lack of reporting (unless the countless polish sites that i couldnt read had evidence to the contarary?)

Now this ones interesting, sadly 2002 statistics (so before the recent relaxation in laws)  https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders-with-firearms

Poland ranked 18th with 111 people murdered using fire arms. UK?, joint 39th (with denmark) with  14.

lets have some more:  https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide

Warsaw with an official population statistic of 1.8 million is around four times smaller in terms of population and three times smaller in terms of area than London BUT it has a higher murder rate. 

London 1.6 people per 100,000 Warsaw 1.9 per 100,000  (interestingly glasgow has 3.3...)

so dont go making out that Poland is some law abiding beacon.  remember Poland is joint 45th on the corruption rankings by transparency.org  with the UK 11th,  perhaps bad publicity like knife crimes get hushed by the government so eager to attack womans rights, gay rights etc

did find this graph for Uk gun crime from https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7654/ 

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im guessing other would be the home made bodge jobs or your muskets.  20% imitation? UKARA hard at work there.  the country map does correlate with @GenuineGerman , like london, birmingham is a hot spot as opposed to my paler cambridgeshire

@GenuineGerman said hope in human nature a while ago... how about hoping that you wont need a weapon to go about your daily life? i feel its a sad state to be in.  to feel the need to always be armed just to be safe