Restrictions on Gatherings and Airsoft?

[Rogerborg]

I think that's pushing the interpretation of "a gathering" to breaking point.

You could make an argument that (for example) each lane of a bowling green is a separate gathering, and indeed their sports body has made that argument.

But the people in that lane can actually play without engaging with anybody elses at the venue, and while staying inside a delineated area.

For airsoft it's hard to make that stick.  Everyone is free to roam anywhere they want and they are all playing in the same game and engaging with each other.

I can't see how you could reasonably argue that they're not part of the same gathering.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Sounds to me like the Facebook experts and lawyers talking shite as usual 

 

[typefish]

I think that's pushing the interpretation of "a gathering" to breaking point.

You could make an argument that (for example) each lane of a bowling green is a separate gathering, and indeed their sports body has made that argument.

But the people in that lane can actually play without engaging with anybody elses at the venue, and while staying inside a delineated area.

For airsoft it's hard to make that stick.  Everyone is free to roam anywhere they want and they are all playing in the same game and engaging with each other.

I can't see how you could reasonably argue that they're not part of the same gathering.

I'm in agreement with you.

A gathering is a collection of people meeting for a single purpose - in our case, to shoot each other. One gathering shooting at a separate gathering is a bit of a stretch and sounds almost like playing a game with a village sniper

Sounds to me like the Facebook experts and lawyers talking shite as usual 

Hey, people call me a Facebook expert! ?

 

[Shamal]

We're all bush-wookies now, chaps.

That's ok just so long as there is something to go to and have a bash.?

Regards 

 

[Rogerborg]

That's ok just so long as there is something to go to and have a bash

Outdoors looks OK, for now, although I'd brace for some "circuit break" full lockdowns again.

I've... urgh I've just ordered up some camo gear for woodland rambles.  DPM 95, stick to the classics.

Mrs Borg said she'd divorce me if I ever bought camo, but the joke's on her: now she's not allowed to take the huff and go and stay with her mother.

 

[Musica]

I've... urgh I've just ordered up some camo gear for woodland rambles.  DPM 95, stick to the classics.

where are you I can't find you?! Join the dark side we might as well get you fitted for a plate carrier now.

 

[Rogerborg]

might as well get you fitted for a plate carrier now

Mind you, I said that about camo.

If I ever go flecktarn, please consider that as a Do Not Resuscitate notice.

Urgh, still no news about whether Biohazard is on this Sunday or not.  I've been F5-ing the regs today, but no updates: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi

It's a bit hard to follow the law until they let us know what it actually is.

 

[Cromulon1994]

I've given up hope of gaming now till next year. Had to sell the bikes because of redundancy and the xbox is having a warranty claim. 

Put in for my SGC just before this started and staffs police aren't processing anything to do with new applications. Made all the more irritating that I now work really close to doveridge shooting grounds.

I am massively bored.

Might as well get a build or two on.

 

[Rogerborg]

Ouch, sorry to hear that.  I've had two bikes sitting unused and uninsured all summer, with nowhere to go on them. I would have sold them, but I reckon the market will be super soft right now.

Well, better news, the Scotch regs are out, and no new restrictions on sport.  Now, I think that's because indoor sport is already banned, but nobody seems to have realised.

And better news on that, Biohazard is on this Sunday, because the Council... don't realise that it shouldn't be.  Looks like Z-Mart have got the go-ahead as well, despite the newest English regs clearly banning all indoor sports.  Praise be for the wheels of bureaucracy grinding slowly.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Looks like Z-Mart have got the go-ahead as well, despite the newest English regs clearly banning all indoor sports.  Praise be for the wheels of bureaucracy grinding slowly.

Curious for your thoughts on why Airsoft fits into the indoor sports category

 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

I thought I would share the updated guidance from UKAPU which looks at changes to legislation from the 24th September, and the impact on airsoft, both outdoor and indoor:

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/coronavirus-portal/regulations-in-england/

Mingling is another subject but I found this article about it: https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-social-distancing-mingling/

 

[Rogerborg]

Curious for your thoughts on why Airsoft fits into the indoor sports category

It doesn't really matter if it does or doesn't, since that no longer gives it any specific protection (in law, the de facto situation is clearly playing out differently).

I mention "indoor sports" because the English regs uses the term "permitted indoor sports".  But that only covers disabled sports now, so it's not relevant to airsoft at the moment.

Outdoors, if it's not a "sport", then it loses the exemption for "outdoor sports" in England, but curiously not in Scotland which allows for all "organised activities which take place outdoors".

To be clear, participation in all "gatherings" are criminalised, unless allowed, which is a pretty horrible state of affairs.  It's in our interests to find en exemption, i.e to assert that airsoft is a sport, by the plain definition of the word.

Sources:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/279/regulation/8

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/684/regulation/5

I take UKAPU's point, but I think they're being wildly optimistic about attendees at an airsoft event not mingling.  We're all there in the same place at the same time to do the same activity with each other.  In car parks, sign in and safe zones, we can stay in groups.  But once it's game on, there is no mechanism to monitor or separate groups, as opposed to (for example) bowling lanes.

Outdoors, you can maybe maintain 2m with enough shouting and punishment shots from marshals. Indoors, no chance.

If everybody - sites, players, councils, environmental health, police - are happy to maintain the fiction that we're together but separate, then great, let's play.  However, if push comes to shove, I would be astonished if a Magistrate or Sheriff gave it the time of day.

 

[typefish]

I thought I would share the updated guidance from UKAPU which looks at changes to legislation from the 24th September, and the impact on airsoft, both outdoor and indoor:

https://www.ukapu.org.uk/coronavirus-portal/regulations-in-england/

Mingling is another subject but I found this article about it: https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-social-distancing-mingling/

I take UKAPU's point, but I think they're being wildly optimistic about attendees at an airsoft event not mingling.  We're all there in the same place at the same time to do the same activity with each other.  In car parks, sign in and safe zones, we can stay in groups.  But once it's game on, there is no mechanism to monitor or separate groups, as opposed to (for example) bowling lanes.

When I wrote that notice, I had wrote it with the idea of a group having only six people within it. A game of 3 versus 3 (or 1 versus 5), shall we say.

As with my earlier post in this thread, I agree with you that there is "fat chance" of two individual groups, bubbles or whatever not mixing yet playing the same game and adhering to the regulations in place, but I know that there are a couple of sites that are planning on using HSE/the Government's interpretation of mixing/mingling and treating it to a night it'll never forget.

 

[typefish]

I know a couple of folks here are interested in the boring legislation so I thought I'll post it here too

Tier 1: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1103/made

Tier 2: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1104/made

Tier 3: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1105/made

Basically, a 50 to 100 words saying that we can't do anything, then going back on itself and saying that we can, for all three tiers.

 

[Rogerborg]

Mmm, it seems that even the civil serpents drafting the legislation are having a hard time figuring out what they're trying to achieve.  And then Councils and police make their own interpretation of it anyway.

Usually I advocate looking to the legislation for clarity and certainty, but at this point it barely seems worth it.

 

[typefish]

Usually I advocate looking to the legislation for clarity and certainty, but at this point it barely seems worth it.

Agreed, it's fucked. I spent 4 hours going through it last night and left me in a mess trying to unpick it all ?

I am legitimately surprised that sport can still be played in Tier 3 though, for example - all this talk about banning people from places and stopping people from gathering outside yet people can still take part in a sporting/fitness activity en mass such as airsoft and football (but not spectate oddly enough, a thing unique to Tier 3)

Could be worse. Norn Iron has a complete ban on any form of sport.

Also, why Tier 3? Tier 1 is Medium, will there be a Tier 0 for low risk, Tier -1 (or Tier 4294967295) for no risk?

 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Agreed, it's fucked. I spent 4 hours going through it last night and left me in a mess trying to unpick it all ?

I am legitimately surprised that sport can still be played in Tier 3 though, for example - all this talk about banning people from places and stopping people from gathering outside yet people can still take part in a sporting/fitness activity en mass such as airsoft and football (but not spectate oddly enough, a thing unique to Tier 3)

Could be worse. Norn Iron has a complete ban on any form of sport.

Also, why Tier 3? Tier 1 is Medium, will there be a Tier 0 for low risk, Tier -1 (or Tier 4294967295) for no risk?

Firstly thank you very much for your analysis, I do appreciate it, - as you note, its a total headfuck.

With reference to sporting activities and so forth - if i say so myself,  the benefits of exercise and team sports for physical and mental health (both very important considerations) are well understood and supported in scientific literature, likewise unless more absolute measures are put in place, a line has to be drawn somewhere, which of course opens it up to inconsistencies.  If one was to take a purely epidemiological approach then the idea of disabled people being exempt from the restrictions of indoor sport may not make sense - however a more holistic approach would recognise the (imo) obvious benefits of such an exemption.

Re Tier 0 and such - I would except that in the event of the possibility of such a tier, the existing tier system would be inappropriate in its entirety. 

Thanks again

 

[Cannonfodder]

I suspect that the reason for tier 1 being labelled medium, rather than low, is because calling it low would make people become complacent and more likely not to follow guidelines, potentially causing a greater spread of the virus 

 

[Lozart]

I suspect that the reason for tier 1 being labelled medium, rather than low, is because calling it low would make people become complacent and more likely not to follow guidelines, potentially causing a greater spread of the virus 

Just like they have over the last few weeks you mean?

 

[Guest]

It’s all bollocks.

Tier3 in Liverpool, no gyms allowed to open

Tier3 in Lancashire, all gyms allowed to open