Competitive But Not Speedsoft

[Prisce]

??‍ 

 

[Tommikka]

When is a ricochet a firm hit or a gentle tap?

.....

may I refer back to Toms trademarked 27mm gelatine BBs .....

 

[Adolf Hamster]

When is a ricochet a firm hit or a gentle tap?

.....

may I refer back to Toms trademarked 27mm gelatine BBs .....

Ive had instances where ricochets have been genuinely mistaken for hits, the right bb, barrier and angle and they can come back at you with authority.

Also gelatine bb's? Thats heresy sir and i suggest you cease it

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

One question does anybody reading this think that the game idea of small teams and trying to play all tactical is some how new?

Give you a clue it isn't, similar stuff has been tried before, in paintball years ago I remember places trying it. Never really took off as paintballers tried it, thought yeah that was different and went back to paintball. None paintballers tried it and either didn't like the pain or became paintballers and ended playing speedball as way more fun.

Laser tag tried it and lots of people had a go and some even had quite a few goes but it soon petered out it soon became kind of boring.

Pretty sure some airsoft places have tried it and it has never really took off. 

While some of the more larpy players will enjoy it the small size means scenarios are limited so can become stale very quick. To be honest the larpy types who actually want to take it serious are actually a minority so your client base past people who just have a go to try it and then go back to just having a laugh at skirmishes is pretty small. The idea does have merit but  I honestly reckon it will only work as an occasional thing and the site really needs to concentrate on providing a good cqb experience as that is where the longevity is.

The hit detection is just bollocks no matter how you look at it though.

 

[Prisce]

One question does anybody reading this think that the game idea of small teams and trying to play all tactical is some how new?

Give you a clue it isn't, similar stuff has been tried before, in paintball years ago I remember places trying it. Never really took off as paintballers tried it, thought yeah that was different and went back to paintball. None paintballers tried it and either didn't like the pain or became paintballers and ended playing speedball as way more fun.

Laser tag tried it and lots of people had a go and some even had quite a few goes but it soon petered out it soon became kind of boring.

Pretty sure some airsoft places have tried it and it has never really took off. 

While some of the more larpy players will enjoy it the small size means scenarios are limited so can become stale very quick. To be honest the larpy types who actually want to take it serious are actually a minority so your client base past people who just have a go to try it and then go back to just having a laugh at skirmishes is pretty small. The idea does have merit but  I honestly reckon it will only work as an occasional thing and the site really needs to concentrate on providing a good cqb experience as that is where the longevity is.

The hit detection is just bollocks no matter how you look at it though.

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process. 

They started a 5vs5 style tournament this year at a site(I forget what it’s called) and from what I heard it was every bit as bad as you can imagine. 

If it aint broke, don’t try to fix it, if you have an idea on how to improve it, your a decade late and no one gives a shit.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process. 

They started a 5vs5 style tournament this year at a site(I forget what it’s called) and from what I heard it was every bit as bad as you can imagine. 

If it aint broke, don’t try to fix it, if you have an idea on how to improve it, your a decade late and no one gives a shit.

I reckon I could put together a pretty lethal team though.  Anybody remember the vault game at the mall 5 vs everyone else? 

 

[Musica]

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process.

I play a lot of video games and I get OK at them but I never enjoy playing "competitive" matches or tournaments. I play for fun and it's just not fun for me when theres more stakes on the line than just playing for the hell of it.  I do think your right everyone dreams of their hobby  making them money similar to how most people wanted to be a footballer but now people want to be a youtuber or twitch streamer. For me hobbys are to relax so I don't enjoy when they get too serious.

 

[Tiercel]

Sounds like you're taking what is potentially a good idea, then ruining it by massively over complicating it.

Small "mini milsim" 5v5 CQB missions sounds like a potentially awesome idea. Have a day-long tournament, each game lasts 10 minutes or something like that, a dozen teams on the day  working their way up a score board, sounds really fun.

I like the idea of belt rigs only for cqb so you don't get Rook and his extra armour turning up ignoring hits because "CQB hurts I need protection!" I'd allow helmets though at people's choice. One because if people are getting their Ash on and pelting around cqb heads twatting into door frames hurt a lot and are an insurance claim nightmare "he told me I couldn't wear head protection and now I've got a big scar on my forehead! I've got Injury lawyers 4 u on speed dial!" And two as a medical professional working with members of the public in my day job it looks bad if I turn up at work with a face full of oozing BB welts so for cqb I do tend to go all out on face/head protection

Balaclava with built in mesh... You mean you want me to share re-used grotty face protection that many other sweaty mouth breathers have been rubbing all over themselves? No, thanks. It's bad enough reusing hard face pro at regular rental sites but soft fabric stuff that's gonna be full of sweat and grease, no.

Over complicating it with bizzare rules and a strange LED system and RF trigger blocks (this of course now means people can't bring their own guns, forcing people to rent which sucks) and the rest of that sounds massively over complicated and full of problems that will kill it off.  

For one. How would your hit detection differentiate between a BB strike and your mate prodding you hard in the chest for a laugh, or bumping against walls?  It sounds like you've seen laser tag kit and thought "that'll work great for Airsoft!" Which... It wont. 

Also we all know what it's like when you go to a game day and they're trying a new game with really over complex rules/objectives... Everyone ignores the objectives and it just turns into team death match. If you want to avoid this, remember the age old words of wisdom, keep it simple! I'd also consider as a way of encouraging people to actually play the objective rather than win by eliminating the other team have some kind of points system in place for scoring teams on the day, say 1 point for every player eliminated and 3-5 points per onjecti completed. (assuming there's more than one objective per round, if there's only one then you'd need to balance it so that completing objectives is a decent enough reward in points but not OP )

Other suggestions, if you're going for mini milsim level of play, then appropriate loadouts is a nice idea, no speedsoft trackie bottoms and wannabe NFL jerseys. I'd also consider ammo limits to stop it turning into a "IM NOT USING FULL AUTO JUST REALLY FAST SEMI AUTO LOL" spamfest of who can spunk a whole mag down a corridor fastest like every other CQB site. No hicaps/drum mags. Mid/low caps only and to force people to think sensibly about their shots I'd consider making a 30-50BBs per magazine limit and maximum of say 150-200 BBs carried in total for your primary weapon. Secondary like pistol or even shotgun would be unlimited (again no Glock 18s with drum mag to get around this ? )

I think I see what you're trying to do, and I like it, but don't ruin it by going full rainman over it!

 

[Tommikka]

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

This is even more reason for enough marshals to safely watch the players.

..... and if it’s a 5v5 competition then you have 10 players to watch in a focused area of action, which means you can place your marshals to fit the Scenario and follow the action

 

[Davegolf]

I feel all of the hit recog kit is just aiming the games all toward Joe public walk-ons, AKA planet laser etc.

I see you thought and reasoning for the recog kit but irritatingly I think it would cause as many new issues as it would resolve.

Plus who wants to wear all that!?

What is you target customer base?

One time Joes or repeated custom long term Airsofters?

Building a good gentlemans agreement through regular players and solid marshalling is going to be way more fun, less complicated and costly I would think.

I think with 5v5 in mind specifically Battle Belts only is a great idea as lots of hits are not taken due to the like of tac vests.

I don't think the mag capacity is a biggy, I assume the games are all semi only anyway.

That said Realcap or Midcap will keep the site cleaner ha!

350FPS will make hits known / players react to hit involuntarily making it obvious.

No mesh eyepro is a good call, with lots of hard surface BBs shatter.

If you are potentially running 12x 5man teams then 6-8 marshalls would be good, all depends on you budget / what works, but the more the merrier.

Ultimately most airsofters want a good game, 5v5 is going to be active, getting a good rep and honest regulars will do so much for the site.

 

[Tiercel]

The other consideration as well is that if youre only running one game at a time, you've got 2 teams playing, and X teams sat around being bored, they'd paid to be there to play. Imagine how annoyed/bored you'd be if you've paid for a whole day tournament, and you have to wait an hour between games because you're the first team in, and 10 more teams go, each one lasting 10-15 or more minutes before you get to have your next round. You'd need stuff to do Inbetween or be running more than one scenario at once. I don't know if the site yours using could accommodate that suitably?

I don't think the mag capacity is a biggy, I assume the games are all semi only anyway.

That said Realcap or Midcap will keep the site cleaner ha!

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

36 minutes ago, Tiercel said:

The other consideration as well is that if youre only running one game at a time, you've got 2 teams playing, and X teams sat around being bored, they'd paid to be there to play. Imagine how annoyed/bored you'd be if you've paid for a whole day tournament, and you have to wait an hour between games because you're the first team in, and 10 more teams go, each one lasting 10-15 or more minutes before you get to have your next round. You'd need stuff to do Inbetween or be running more than one scenario at once. I don't know if the site yours using could accommodate that suitably?

Finally a sensible comment.

As I have said as an occasional thing for like minded people it might have legs. 

As a regular thing it will not work.

As a business model it definitely won't work.

 

[Rogerborg]

The idea of hit detection gear for airsoft is also hilarious.

What does it look like?  Does it go over or under your regular gear?  It will have to register impacts down to what, 0.2J?  Less?  So how do you stop it constantly registering hits from contact with yourself, your team-mates, your own gear, or the scenery and cover?

If it's not nearly 100% reliable, then all you're doing is ensuring that both shooter and target will feel aggravated and cheated by it in turn.

Of course, someone will be happy to take your money to develop it for as long as you want to keep paying them.  They'll blind you with science and assure you that it's technically possible, but they just need a little more time and funding.  They may even have an oscilloscope, conceivably even a white coat, but you'll never have a usable product.

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

Everything Seth types on this site

https://giphy.com/gifs/gif-this-Av3rOMhdQ4FvZwsauw

 

[Adolf Hamster]

conceivably even a white coat

the secret of the trade- knowing you can just go and buy white lab coats.

still need to run a game in mine, go full mad scientist loadout (whatever that is)

 

[Seth_Erebor]

I agree. The problem is in today’s day and age everyone wants to turn their hobbies into a way of making money. 

Because of this, a lot of ideas like this one have sprung up, people trying to make money out of an idea that was probably first thought of a decade ago, just so they can spend as much time as they want doing something to do with their hobby, trying to become a millionaire in the process. 

They started a 5vs5 style tournament this year at a site(I forget what it’s called) and from what I heard it was every bit as bad as you can imagine. 

If it aint broke, don’t try to fix it, if you have an idea on how to improve it, your a decade late and no one gives a shit.

The money is secondary to me, we're experimenting with a range of options with the site.

Ive had instances where ricochets have been genuinely mistaken for hits, the right bb, barrier and angle and they can come back at you with authority.

Also gelatine bb's? Thats heresy sir and i suggest you cease it

I have to tell my mates to always wear eye pro even in the garden, they really do ping back hard.

I reckon I could put together a pretty lethal team though.  Anybody remember the vault game at the mall 5 vs everyone else? 

That's one team down, three to go.  

Someone mentioned 12 teams or something. I was thinking more like 4 on the day. Double Round Robin = 12 rounds, not 12 teams.

I play a lot of video games and I get OK at them but I never enjoy playing "competitive" matches or tournaments. I play for fun and it's just not fun for me when theres more stakes on the line than just playing for the hell of it.  I do think your right everyone dreams of their hobby  making them money similar to how most people wanted to be a footballer but now people want to be a youtuber or twitch streamer. For me hobbys are to relax so I don't enjoy when they get too serious.

There will be a range of days for all types of play.

Sounds like you're taking what is potentially a good idea, then ruining it by massively over complicating it.

Small "mini milsim" 5v5 CQB missions sounds like a potentially awesome idea. Have a day-long tournament, each game lasts 10 minutes or something like that, a dozen teams on the day  working their way up a score board, sounds really fun.

I like the idea of belt rigs only for cqb so you don't get Rook and his extra armour turning up ignoring hits because "CQB hurts I need protection!" I'd allow helmets though at people's choice. One because if people are getting their Ash on and pelting around cqb heads twatting into door frames hurt a lot and are an insurance claim nightmare "he told me I couldn't wear head protection and now I've got a big scar on my forehead! I've got Injury lawyers 4 u on speed dial!" And two as a medical professional working with members of the public in my day job it looks bad if I turn up at work with a face full of oozing BB welts so for cqb I do tend to go all out on face/head protection

Balaclava with built in mesh... You mean you want me to share re-used grotty face protection that many other sweaty mouth breathers have been rubbing all over themselves? No, thanks. It's bad enough reusing hard face pro at regular rental sites but soft fabric stuff that's gonna be full of sweat and grease, no.

Over complicating it with bizzare rules and a strange LED system and RF trigger blocks (this of course now means people can't bring their own guns, forcing people to rent which sucks) and the rest of that sounds massively over complicated and full of problems that will kill it off.  

For one. How would your hit detection differentiate between a BB strike and your mate prodding you hard in the chest for a laugh, or bumping against walls?  It sounds like you've seen laser tag kit and thought "that'll work great for Airsoft!" Which... It wont. 

Also we all know what it's like when you go to a game day and they're trying a new game with really over complex rules/objectives... Everyone ignores the objectives and it just turns into team death match. If you want to avoid this, remember the age old words of wisdom, keep it simple! I'd also consider as a way of encouraging people to actually play the objective rather than win by eliminating the other team have some kind of points system in place for scoring teams on the day, say 1 point for every player eliminated and 3-5 points per onjecti completed. (assuming there's more than one objective per round, if there's only one then you'd need to balance it so that completing objectives is a decent enough reward in points but not OP )

Other suggestions, if you're going for mini milsim level of play, then appropriate loadouts is a nice idea, no speedsoft trackie bottoms and wannabe NFL jerseys. I'd also consider ammo limits to stop it turning into a "IM NOT USING FULL AUTO JUST REALLY FAST SEMI AUTO LOL" spamfest of who can spunk a whole mag down a corridor fastest like every other CQB site. No hicaps/drum mags. Mid/low caps only and to force people to think sensibly about their shots I'd consider making a 30-50BBs per magazine limit and maximum of say 150-200 BBs carried in total for your primary weapon. Secondary like pistol or even shotgun would be unlimited (again no Glock 18s with drum mag to get around this ? )

I think I see what you're trying to do, and I like it, but don't ruin it by going full rainman over it!

Good points raised there.

The head pro would protect from hits, think a goalkeepers helmet (or boxing/rugby,etc).

Hygiene, this is a big deal to me so there would be one per player and they'd be washed once after the game day and once again the day before the next. 

Which rule was weird? 

The LEDs are for you to know you are no longer in the game.

Yes, you can use your own gun. The point of it being at the power source should make it universal. We shall see. But we'd never force players to use rentals for comps.

Amazing point, the objective needs to be valuable. Noted  

Ammo limits.

No highcaps or drums.

Rainman, me?

Thanks for the points raised, means a lot. It'll make the first test better for everyone.

This is even more reason for enough marshals to safely watch the players.

..... and if it’s a 5v5 competition then you have 10 players to watch in a focused area of action, which means you can place your marshals to fit the Scenario and follow the action

Yup

I feel all of the hit recog kit is just aiming the games all toward Joe public walk-ons, AKA planet laser etc.

I see you thought and reasoning for the recog kit but irritatingly I think it would cause as many new issues as it would resolve.

Plus who wants to wear all that!?

What is you target customer base?

One time Joes or repeated custom long term Airsofters?

Building a good gentlemans agreement through regular players and solid marshalling is going to be way more fun, less complicated and costly I would think.

I think with 5v5 in mind specifically Battle Belts only is a great idea as lots of hits are not taken due to the like of tac vests.

I don't think the mag capacity is a biggy, I assume the games are all semi only anyway.

That said Realcap or Midcap will keep the site cleaner ha!

350FPS will make hits known / players react to hit involuntarily making it obvious.

No mesh eyepro is a good call, with lots of hard surface BBs shatter.

If you are potentially running 12x 5man teams then 6-8 marshalls would be good, all depends on you budget / what works, but the more the merrier.

Ultimately most airsofters want a good game, 5v5 is going to be active, getting a good rep and honest regulars will do so much for the site.

If it can't be refined to not cause issues then it won't be used. I'll do some test days with and without it, see what people say.

It'll be quite light.

Repeated custom from long term Airsofters.

Belts are ok for 10-15 mins, so yeah, should be fine.

Clean up is a nightmare, the "other" users of the site have been getting them stuck in their boots.

4x5-man teams.

 
 


 












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On 09/08/2019 at 07:36, Tiercel said:

The other consideration as well is that if youre only running one game at a time, you've got 2 teams playing, and X teams sat around being bored, they'd paid to be there to play. Imagine how annoyed/bored you'd be if you've paid for a whole day tournament, and you have to wait an hour between games because you're the first team in, and 10 more teams go, each one lasting 10-15 or more minutes before you get to have your next round. You'd need stuff to do Inbetween or be running more than one scenario at once. I don't know if the site yours using could accommodate that suitably?

lol I use my fingers dude.

 

[Tiercel]

Some actually sensible answers, still not convinced but I think it has potential with further work.

Also r.e. the trigger blocks, what about people using GBB primaries? My CQB weapon of choice is a GBB MP7. Or springer shotguns etc. 

I still dont think forcing people to use communal (even if it is "washed" between uses and 1 per person) face pro is a good idea. Also how are you gonna stop the mesh from going rusty. Itll no doubt be made of finest chineseium steel which will disintegrate by the 3rd wash If you want to go down the route of mandatory full face (which for CQB isnt a bad idea) Id just say that people must have at the very least mesh mouth guard along with their eyepro so as a minimum 2 part full face cover. And seeing as there was that pic (which I cant find again, boo) of armed police using One Tigris style mesh lower mouth guards it fits in with the milsim aesthetic   Also on the topic of balaclavas, if youre enforcing  full sealed or no mesh eye-pro then youre gonna be sweat city with balaclavas and causing endless fogging issues. I tried it once and never again.

 

[Rogerborg]

Shared gear could be cleaned with isopropanol, although I'm sure Seth will come up with a more complicated idea.

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

Have read and re read this thread trying to see how this is going to work. In my ill informed opinion the only way you will even get close to what you are attempting is going to cost a sh*t load of money for something that I cannot see where you will get your return.

“Do not waste time attempting to make sense out of nonsense.” ― Johnnie Dent Jr.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Have read and re read this thread trying to see how this is going to work. In my ill informed opinion the only way you will even get close to what you are attempting is going to cost a sh*t load of money for something that I cannot see where you will get your return.

“Do not waste time attempting to make sense out of nonsense.” ― Johnnie Dent Jr.

When you can make things yourself you can save a lot as anyone in a trade or profession can atest.

I'm not 100% motivated by money, I work in tech and it's fun to put ideas to the test.