Joule Creep

[Wo1f]

You say its unfair to chronograph a fail on 0.3 with a gun which passes on 0.2 - but you also say that putting 0.12g into a gun which failed 0.2g is also wrong. You can't have it both ways.

Your posts are very hit and miss, please read the link I posted and study the chart. https://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/  you seem to understand the physics but not actually care about the implications.

I don't intend to antagonise you but I don't see how we're going to get any further if you insist on criticising yourself. 

So can we please move this away from "you", and your local site, and onto what really matters here: to you are hot guns unfair or unsafe? (this is a joke question).

I do sincerely apologise if you've received any impression that you were being accused by me of anything at any time yesterday.

My goal has been to convince you that joules are better than 0.2g at a select FPS but you keep going back to "your gun at your site" which no one cares about.

Because you can always use a heavier BB you can’t really go down from a .20. It’s not having it both ways. I can guarantee you that you can take ANY gbbr and put a really heavy BB in it and it will fail your joule limit. So on the basis of what you said, all GBBR’s must be banned from your site.

Now if you’d have said a gun fires at say 400 FPS on a .20 so just put a .30 in it then it will be under 350 I would have understood, but that would be cheating in the eyes of a site that measures FPS on a set weight. 

I want to point out I understand how and why your sites use joules to measure ‘hotness’ I just prefer how my sites do it, because it means upgrading your gun is more worthwhile and possible engagement distances are further. It works, everyone is happy with it and it’s convenient. While joule readings between all guns on the field will be slightly off, it’s not enough to have ever caused any noticeable negative effect or health and safety issue with the thousands of players that visit. It’s just allowed people who have set up their guns well to get that extra few meters and get the games going quicker. 

 

[Immortal]

0.2 @ 350 fps may or may not be hot with a heavier BB (but maybe too slow to bother using), it depends how eficient the rif is and it doesn't matter if it's air, green gas nor co2.

One rif may be wasting 50% of the propellant pushing a 0.2 BB registering legal whereas another rif may waste nothing at all but chrono the same with a 0.2 BB and also be legal.

The one initially wasting 50% of the propellant may then be hot with a heavy BB as it can use the excess propellant previously wasted to push a heavy BB faster than the one that wasn't wasting propellant which will simply slow down with a heavy BB.

They chrono the same at 0.2 but not with a heavier BB. That is the pickle and where the joule creep kicks in...

 

[Sacarathe]

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

 

[Wo1f]

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

Then why are we having this discussion? I wasn’t even a part of this thread. If you play at a site that measures like mine and I do, why fix what isn’t broken? There are more downsides to chronoing for joules than positives, despite being a ‘fairer’ measurement 

 

[LightningCh]

That waiver isn't worth anything if a gun exceeds the UK legal limits. If you injured someone with a gun which was not an airsoft gun...

Then im yet to be reported to the police for using my "non airsoft gun" in an airsoft game because it's being used sensibly. And is yet to cause physical harm.

And when it finally does?

Ill be checked for my MED (there must be a reason we have this right? Otherwise why have it), and my gun will be chronoed on .2s which it will pass. So nothing will be escalated from there.

IMO

Players agree to the guns being set to the rules, whether the rules make the gun legal or not. (Or do you not sign the waiver because it allows joule creep to make a gun hot and illegal? ?)

And until sites chrono in Joules, only a fraction of people will really worry about it.

 

[Sacarathe]

Then why are we having this discussion? I wasn’t even a part of this thread. If you play at a site that measures like mine and I do, why fix what isn’t broken? There are more downsides to chronoing for joules than positives, despite being a ‘fairer’ measurement 

Chrono via fps on .20 as doing it by joules essentially restricts BB weight and the point of a well tuned/ upgrades gun. 350 for full auto, 450 DMR and 500 sniper. MED for DMR and sniper 20m

Because this thinking is dangerous and should be corrected. The current system should never be the preferred system and anyone which thinks otherwise needs reeducation (on health and safety grounds).

I had hoped you didn't understand, but it's clear that you do and I believe if I were to speculated right now as to what your reasons for preferring the current system might be, I would sound either sarcastic or flippant - but in any case not constructive.

I personally use a gun which chronos at 314 FPS on 0.2g. I don't have to worry about this stuff.

Then im

When I said "that waiver" I wasn't talking about you. I edited it out to avoid starting a separate discussion. ? Seems someone saw what I wrote.

 

[LightningCh]

Seems someone saw what I wrote.

Gotta be faster than that then ?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

any site that uses "x fps at y bb weight" is using joules, even if they don't realise that's what they're doing, hence the point of this discussion that it's possible to get significant gains if this is how it's measured that in real terms amount to an equivalent of what the site's definition of a "hot" gun is if it were to be measured properly.

to take sonsofammo's example:

chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph

now we chuck in some .4's and it's 293fps for a total of 1.6j, a 50% increase, but because he passed the chrono this is fine.

someone else comes along and chrono's 415fps on a .2, well he's just failed the site chrono hasn't he, but it's still 1.6j

the energy is the same, the effect on target is the same, and yet one is acceptable and the other is not.

now wether or not the 1.6j is deemed acceptable by players being hit is irrelevant, if that's the case then the site can change it's limits to reflect this (by allowing the 400fps gun to run .2's as well as the 293fps gun running .4's). the point is that it's the same thing being acheived only by some creative physics.

there's a reason why countries that have laws limiting the acceptable energy to constitute an airsoft gun do so in joules not fps because that's the proper definition of the attribute of a projectile that defines it's ability to cause harm.

 

[Wo1f]

Because this thinking is dangerous and should be corrected. The current system should never be the preferred system and anyone which thinks otherwise needs reeducation (on health and safety grounds).

I had hoped you didn't understand, but it's clear that you do and I believe if I were to speculated right now as to what your reasons might be, I would sound either sarcastic or flippant. 

I personally use a gun which chronos at 314 FPS on 0.2g. I don't have to worry about this stuff.

You don’t have to worry because it’s an AEG? which is a fixed volume of air. A gbbr firing at 280 FPS on a .20 would still easily have the potential to break 1.13 joules. 

Maybe its dangerous to idiots who do stupid things at their sites, but I’ve never come across any fps related issues in all my time playing. Id consider myself a very sensible player. If I play as a DMR or sniper I always have a range finder with me, and I always check when I first try a new site about how far away certain objects or buildings are away from other things so I have never been in a position where MED has even been questioned because I make a point of following the rules. 

Your thinking is more dangerous, because the last thing airsoft needs is more stringent and unnecessary rules to hamper the sport. The system we have works. It’s quick and easily verified on or off the field with no chance of lying because there are .20 BB’s at the chrono. 

so I may have .01 joules more than someone else. I also have 30 rounds in my mags compared to everyone’s 300 round high caps. In the interest of fairness, should I be allowed 10 shots per life to even up my odds? No, of course not. This is how ridiculous this conversation is. 

 

[Sacarathe]

I have never played at a site which used joules. How many times do I have to say this is a theoretical discussion.

<Snip>

YKWIM

The system we have works.

This is pointless, you take everything personally. How you play, where you play, and what gun you use is irrelevant.

I too operate the same way you do when I come to a field, I chrono on 0.2g, I put in my 0.25g or 0.3g BBs and play the game. But this was never about how you/we play.

Twas about why you think 0.2g at various FPS is the best system for chronographing. But you can't manage to discuss it without all this foofa about "I follow my local site's rules".

It's clear that you would personally be disadvantaged under the joules/players chosen weight system. 

All that said, because I REALLY don't wish to be antagonistic, please don't take this conclusion as judgemental or sarcastic or whatever. I had hoped to change your mind, but you hoped to change my mind, so impasse it is. I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong.  No harm.

PS I'm not smug.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

YKWIM

i'm getting old, i had to google that

 

[Sacarathe]

i'm getting old, i had to google that

To be fair I never used it before. Didn't want to be rude.

 

[LightningCh]

YKWIM

Even I went to google it and I'm only 20 ?

 

[Wo1f]

YKWIM

This is pointless, you take everything personally.

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point ? 

 

[Sacarathe]

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point ? 

Actually. I don't get your point. I suppose that's the crux of our exchange. But I'm going to bed now I'm caught up on UFC.

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player.

In an ideal world the site would provide the BBs and you wouldn't need to change the settings on the chrono. As for honesty if you can't trust fellow players why bother going at all?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I’m taking it personally. I’m saying nobody is complaining about the current system and changing it to what I’ve already agreed is a more accurate one poses more issues to fix a problem nobody is asking to be fixed. 

So to keep things ‘theoretical’.. new law comes in and now all guns need to be 1.13 joules..

you’ve got 120 people lining up to chrono...

SCENARIO 1 you're chronoing at the BB weight they’re going to be playing:

You now have to be sure all 120 players are honest about their BB weight and potentially change the chrono settings for the different BB weights of each player. 4 hours later, you’re all ready for the game...

SCENARIO 2 you make everyone chrono on a heavy weight BB:

Virtually very single gbbr has failed and they all ask for their walk on fees back. Well set up, high end AEG’s fail and do the same. Little Johnny and his combat machine looks around at an empty site and nobody to shoot. airsoft in the UK takes a massive hit and sites/stores shut down.

might be a touch dramatic, but you get my point ? 

you don't need to change the chrono reading every time (although one site i go to just has a bunch of chrono's set to the common bb weights), just have a conversion chart up to consult what the fps should be for a given joule limit and bb weight, it wouldn't even be a particularly complex chart given you're only looking at 1 energy level and there's not that many common bb weights:




bb weight


Fps




0.12


450




0.20


349




0.23


325




0.25


312




0.28


295




0.30


285




0.38


253




0.40


247




0.45


233




0.48


225




0.50


221





players lying about their bb weight is the same as any other way of cheating the chrono, be it twiddling with the expansion chamber on your gas sniper or knocking the regulator on your hpa up a couple of dozen psi. you keep a stock of bb's on hand in the common weights and if there's any doubt over a particular player then you test them with the site ammo for the weight they claim the same way it's done currently with .2's.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Lots of great ideas but betting most/none have ever worked a chrono on a site. 

Doing it by weight would not work as too many people would lie. You would have to weigh their ammo to check their claims. This still wouldn't work though as everybody would come through to chrono with 0.2s then load up with heavier ammo for the game. People will always try and find a way to cheat. 

There is also the fact that people wouldn't be happy at losing the hour or two of game time thst this would add to chrono.

If you chrono everything on a heavier weight then some people who are genuinely using light ammo would fail. 

Personally I think the current system works well enough. While joule creep does exist it is not as hugely common as some people seem to think. Probably less common than people chronoing on 144a then using a high power gas for the game.

 

[Gtech]

Because you can always use a heavier BB you can’t really go down from a .20. It’s not having it both ways. I can guarantee you that you can take ANY gbbr and put a really heavy BB in it and it will fail your joule limit. So on the basis of what you said, all GBBR’s must be banned from your site.

Now if you’d have said a gun fires at say 400 FPS on a .20 so just put a .30 in it then it will be under 350 I would have understood, but that would be cheating in the eyes of a site that measures FPS on a set weight. 

I want to point out I understand how and why your sites use joules to measure ‘hotness’ I just prefer how my sites do it, because it means upgrading your gun is more worthwhile and possible engagement distances are further. It works, everyone is happy with it and it’s convenient. While joule readings between all guns on the field will be slightly off, it’s not enough to have ever caused any noticeable negative effect or health and safety issue with the thousands of players that visit. It’s just allowed people who have set up their guns well to get that extra few meters and get the games going quicker. 

Just 2 things here, GBBRs can easily stay within Joule Limits. You use the nozzle or npas and chrono on the weight you're using to ensure you are at the appropriate limit. This means they won't ever be able to go over that joule limit no matter if they drop to a lower weight BB. It's one of the things UKAPU set out to discuss and resolve during the Police & Crime Act.

Secondly, if you get 350fps on .2 but joule creep over 1.3Joules (with a fully-automatic airsoft rif), you are now classed as having a Section 5 Firearm. Possession of a Section 5 Firearm without correct documentation/licence comes with a mandatory 5 year prison sentence. 

I don't care if a site measures in FPS, the law measures you on Joules. Blaming the site if a situation occurred won't help your case.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/policing-and-crime-bill

 

[Gtech]

One thing that makes me giggle is the amount of 'now we have to trust the players being truthful about their bb weight'.

Every site I go to already asks your weight when you chrono on FPS. I could use .4s and  just tell them .2s - it's the same situation now, hardly an excuse not to do it accurately.

@ImTriggerHappy, my local site in Kent measures in Joules and it's just as fast. They ask the player what weight BB, see the results in FPS and cross-reference it to the Joule Limit for that BB weight. They also have a variety of weights available if the player isn't sure.

Section 8 in Scotland only uses Joules and they've been just fine pulling in 150+ each game day. That said, Scotland had this power limit 2 years before it has been legalised in the UK (the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015) 

 

[clumpyedge]

any site that uses "x fps at y bb weight" is using joules, even if they don't realise that's what they're doing, hence the point of this discussion that it's possible to get significant gains if this is how it's measured that in real terms amount to an equivalent of what the site's definition of a "hot" gun is if it were to be measured properly.

to take sonsofammo's example:

chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph

now we chuck in some .4's and it's 293fps for a total of 1.6j, a 50% increase, but because he passed the chrono this is fine.

someone else comes along and chrono's 415fps on a .2, well he's just failed the site chrono hasn't he, but it's still 1.6j

the energy is the same, the effect on target is the same, and yet one is acceptable and the other is not.

now wether or not the 1.6j is deemed acceptable by players being hit is irrelevant, if that's the case then the site can change it's limits to reflect this (by allowing the 400fps gun to run .2's as well as the 293fps gun running .4's). the point is that it's the same thing being acheived only by some creative physics.

there's a reason why countries that have laws limiting the acceptable energy to constitute an airsoft gun do so in joules not fps because that's the proper definition of the attribute of a projectile that defines it's ability to cause harm.

This is by far the best explanation I've read so far while trying to understand jule creep. My only issue is that if someone runs a gun that "chrono's at 350fps on a .2, for a total of 1.13j, so lets assume the site limit is 350fps on a .2 and this measurement is fine to "pass" the chronograph" could you then say well if you "did" put .40's through its a hot gun so you cant use it?

Again everything seems to be on trust, sites are trusting people to keep to their word on what weight bb they will be using to stay in limits, can you imagine a site doing three chrono tests a day on everyone just to try and catch people out that may or may not have put heavier ammo weight in their guns? We do spot checks but you cant get round everyone.