Trying to sell a RIF but am I doing it wrong?

[Tommikka]

Correct fella a toy gun which under British law is illegal.

Illegal in my world is not good. 

As above, it’s not illegal, but it’s also not a toy. 

There is a clue on the side of the most airsoft guns with the words “This is not a toy”

The legislation under the VCRA provides restrictions on IFs and RIFs, airsoft skirmising is in the additional provisions that the act permits.

If the IF / RIF exceeds force levels then I could be illegal, but airsoft guns are not illegal in the UK

You as a seller need to satisfy yourself that a sale is legal for either an IF or RIF (buyer is aged 18+) and if selling a RIF that you are reasonably satisfied that the buyer is purchasing for permitted uses.

How you satisfy yourself is up to you, but in answer to your original question - yes you are overdoing it and are asking for information that people can feel is too personal

You can stick to what you want until a potential buyer is willing to satisfy you or you can change your requests to increase the odds of a potential buyer 

 

[Countryman]

As above, it’s not illegal, but it’s also not a toy. 

There is a clue on the side of the most airsoft guns with the words “This is not a toy”

The legislation under the VCRA provides restrictions on IFs and RIFs, airsoft skirmising is in the additional provisions that the act permits.

If the IF / RIF exceeds force levels then I could be illegal, but airsoft guns are not illegal in the UK

You as a seller need to satisfy yourself that a sale is legal for either an IF or RIF (buyer is aged 18+) and if selling a RIF that you are reasonably satisfied that the buyer is purchasing for permitted uses.

How you satisfy yourself is up to you, but in answer to your original question - yes you are overdoing it and are asking for information that people can feel is too personal

You can stick to what you want until a potential buyer is willing to satisfy you or you can change your requests to increase the odds of a potential buyer 

Tommikka dont get hung up on this but as these guns really are toys. Yes you can hurt with them, blind with them but they aren’t really leathal. Ultimately you can upgrade these to the levels of an Airgun. Realistically it would be simpler if they were treated legally as airguns!

Its the appearance of them that dragged them into the VCRA, not the power, That came from successive Governments that have bred a culture of fear regarding anything firearms since 1919.

I regularly buy and sell Firearms and frankly there is less angst evident dealing in these than transactions over a RIF.

 

[Duff]

Tommikka dont get hung up on this but as these guns really are toys. Yes you can hurt with them, blind with them but they aren’t really leathal. Ultimately you can upgrade these to the levels of an Airgun. Realistically it would be simpler if they were treated legally as airguns!

Its the appearance of them that dragged them into the VCRA, not the power, That came from successive Governments that have bred a culture of fear regarding anything firearms since 1919.

I regularly buy and sell Firearms and frankly there is less angst evident dealing in these than transactions over a RIF.

Tell that to the Swede sniper who walked off a two storey building trying to get a vantage point. 

 

[Gepard]

Tell that to the Swede sniper who walked off a two storey building trying to get a vantage point. 

I haven't seen that video in a while. Ouch.

 

[Countryman]

Financially, the hobby is lethal!

 

[Apoch]

Well, not illegal... Unless all of us on here are in some sort of underground cabal... Just restricted, like alcohol and sweet, sweet solvents... 

I'll revise my statement it is an offense to sell or manufacture a RIF, toy or not. I'm not willing to be the first bloke who gets fried as the test case.

 If people want to be blase about selling a "toy" because they will never be the one who it bites in the arse than that's their decision. Please don't mock those of us who take the very real potential of the vcra shafting us seriously. 

As I said early all it will take is for someone to sell an imitation weapon to a lunatic who goes on to hold up a school and the full force of the vcra will be used. You can bet the person who supplied the weapon will be screwed. Especially in this current global mindset of fear of terrorism. 

 

[Dentonboy]

I'll revise my statement it is an offense to sell or manufacture a RIF, toy or not. I'm not willing to be the first bloke who gets fried as the test case.

 If people want to be blase about selling a "toy" because they will never be the one who it bites in the arse than that's their decision. Please don't mock those of us who take the very real potential of the vcra shafting us seriously. 

As I said early all it will take is for someone to sell an imitation weapon to a lunatic who goes on to hold up a school and the full force of the vcra will be used. You can bet the person who supplied the weapon will be screwed. Especially in this current global mindset of fear of terrorism. 

Am fully aware of what is and isn't an offence with RiFs thanks Skipper. My point was the use of the word 'illegal' was erroneously used. 

Due diligence when selling is absolutely fine and absolutely encouraged, but I think realistic requests for personal information is the key here. 

 

[Rogerborg]

Please don't mock those of us who take the very real potential of the vcra shafting us seriously.

Well, you can always ask.

For what it's worth, I think you're right to satisfy yourself that you're actually selling to a skirmisher.  It's just that there are easier and more direct ways to check that.  For example, asking them where they skirmish, then asking that site if they can kindly confirm that they've been there at least once, and ideally that they're booked in there again.  I believe that's closest to what the letter of the law requires.

 

[Tommikka]

The key point is that @Apoch has to be satisfied that any potential buyers of a RIF are valid under the VCRA, plus any other legal issues such as being under age.

Should anything happen then they could have to justify the sale

Whats being asked is probably overkill and the majority of us wouldn’t want to provide that information, let alone to a private seller and it will make it more difficult to sell.

Apoch can change strategy or stick to it.  It’s their choice

On a similarish but also unrelated matter I’ve just sold a special edition Paintball gun which was well over £1000 retail, I paid less on sponsorship support, and have hardly used it because of the size of my armoury.  It’s under 4 years old and in the last 3 years it has only been used by others  and is a waste of a special edition.  It does pain me to let go of a piece of my armoury but it was going to waste

I vaguely put it up for sale last year, hoping to have a last play with it myself in July, but injured myself and didn’t play with it 

Over the year I’ve had a lot of enquiries, at least 3 sales which were agreed but fell through

I offered it for sale at x, but open to offer and was willing to let it go for y

I had endless conversations with people offering me well below (one offfer at £100) and then had them arguing that it was old, second hand, not so special etc and I was expecting too much

Trying to stay polite I’ve given my rock bottom price (whether cash face to face or properly delivered & with fees, insurance etc)

Many people could not seem to understand my position that I wasn’t selling because I needed the money, but that it’s a waste of good money doing nothing.  Low ball offers and telling me I’m overpricing were not going to convince me to sell, if it didn’t put a decent wedge in my pocket then I’d happily keep the gun in my collection

One ‘buyer’ corrected my ‘error’ that it’s not no longer available in the UK with a listing of it on one retailer new now just over £1000.

Fine - spend £1000 on that one, I held back from pointing out that they list what they don’t have.  It either didn’t exist or they really did have an original on the shelf for 4 years

Alternatively buy one of the other second hand standard ones ..... and see if those sellers will drop their prices to what they were offering ! 

After all of that I finally sold at my asking price

Patience prevailed - I sold on my terms to a buyer happy to pay what I was asking

Second hand sales are a market of what price & how  the seller is willing to sell at and what a buyer is willing to pay

The quicker a sale you want to sell at the more flexible a seller may need to be

 

[Countryman]

The simple question remains how far is too far. Taking the earlier worst case scenario, no let’s add that the armed attacker gets shot dead by police and they are then motivated to jump the hoops of the guys internet history. What covers you?

You have sought to check his age?

You have sought to check he wants it as part of his regular skirmishing hobby?

You have sought reference to his UKARA number?

You have a copy of his passport?

You have a copy of his Drivers Licence?

 

[snuff]

Apart from all that what does it for me is making the buyer pay the paypal fees...no way..some sites will remove your classified for such actions,your offer the service you pay the fees IMHO..I'd skip straight over that personaly,just a thing...

 

[Tommikka]

Apart from all that what does it for me is making the buyer pay the paypal fees...no way..some sites will remove your classified for such actions,your offer the service you pay the fees IMHO..I'd skip straight over that personaly,just a thing...

It’s the rules under PayPal and the rules on almost every forum, Facebook group etc to comply with PayPal rules

Fees are deducted from the amount the seller receives, simple

A seller should ask for the amount of the sale, and an agreed amount negotiated should be the sale price

Unless it’s a face to face sale then it’s pretty obvious that if a sale is agreed at £100 then the buyer pays £100

Not agree on £100 then say it’s actually £125 because you now have to pay for me to post it to you and addon another random 4% etc for fees (even though its 3.4% and 20p but people just say 4%)

If you want £100 in your pocket then check the size and weight, check out the postage, chuck on about 4% and pick the nearest round number 

(Remember the fee is charged on the whole transaction so make sure the postage charged covers the deduction that will be taken)

Top tip on postage - if you use Royal Mail online and print your own label then the cost can be less than at the counter.  

When i sell online I generally buy the postage straight away, even just on my phone then the buyer gets the details straight away, I can then print when at home or work and stick it on the parcel and get it posted.

If you can’t do the maths then some baby website has been providing a calculator for years

http://www.clothnappytree.com/ppcalculator/

 

[Marc.RG1]

Hi all, I personally agree and follow the vcra act and other shooting rules and regs too, to the letter lol.. And i will not sell a RIF to anyone who can't show me a valid defence or ukara, as a few members on here will know as I have not sold to them, like Lewis for example even though i personally really wanted to and know he is a top bloke.

But what cracks me up and gets my goat somewhat is the slightly flawed system, a defence does not make you a responsible person. 

I belong to a RS firearms club and a lot of my family and friends have their FAC, lol but this is not classed for a defence for RIF airsoft guns which in my eyes is a joke, and to be totally honest I have meet many people or played with people at games that I would class as very irresponsible people, that not only have no gun safety sense but also do things they should not, like shooting in the woods for example, but because they have UKARA people can sell to them but if a fellow member of our firearms club or family that have their FAC wanted a RIF for a gun for some home practicing or even to use at gun club for some cheap fun in the airgun and airsoft range, we can't really sell to them, even though they are some of the most responsible and gun savvy people I have meet, Silly a.. 

That's just my 2 cents lol..

But as I say to people, although our rules, guidelines, regs and laws are not perfect they could be a heck of a lot worse that's for sure.. 

Happy shooting all. 

ATB Marc 

 

[Tommikka]

@Marc.RG1

Thats the thing with the VCRA, it’s not a firearms style piece of legislation and isn’t really about responsible use of an IF or RIF

You can’t sell a RIF to those you mentioned, but you can sell them a two tone

The act is about the look, and to shoot on a range hasn’t got a need for a realistic look.

A local theatre can justify RIFs in performances, and is an original defence

Airsoft didnt have an original defence in the act but got added, it’s not essential to have a RIF in airsoft as everyone is just playing a game, but it helps in the immersion and the UKARA were successful as an association of retailers and obtained an additional defence which protected the business of airsoft and didn’t kill the marketplace

Other real guns such as starting pistols, deacs etc can all be used irresponsibly but are covered in existing legislation, and as they are not imitations are nothing to do with the VCRA.  Occasionally someone pops up who just wants to collect, and RIFs are cheaper then deacs.  But they don’t have a VCRA Defence

Paijtball doesn’t have a VCRA Defence, there was a small true milsim community at the time but it wasn’t a battle the UKPSF could win so they didn’t fight it.

Paintball guns got more realistic and true magfed came, when retailers went back to the UKPSF they raised the issue with the home office, there remains no VCRA defence but there is now a statement from the home office interpreting what would be Paintball RIFs as either VCRA exempt due to other legislation (treating it as a firearm) or that UKPSF membership as a UKARA equivalent.  Those would be subject to a case in court to decide, but though there is no clear ‘defence’ for retailers in the UKARA context the letter from the home office would be a reasonable legal ‘defence’ to a retailer/seller in court

With both RIFs and firearms both the UKARA or a FAC do not prove an individual will be responsible, but the VCRA gives the reasonable steps to a seller thar the intention was there for justifiable use.

We can only sell to those of the appropriate age and the legal responsibility lies with the adult on their actual use

The VCRA isn’t really about legal use and true imitation firearm crime.  It is a child safety and anti chav law to keep realistic guns from kids in the street and avoid the police shooting a young teen on a firearms call out or a chav robbing the local corner shop with a poundland or market plastic gun

 

[Marc.RG1]

@Marc.RG1

Thats the thing with the VCRA, it’s not a firearms style piece of legislation and isn’t really about responsible use of an IF or RIF

You can’t sell a RIF to those you mentioned, but you can sell them a two tone

The act is about the look, and to shoot on a range hasn’t got a need for a realistic look.

A local theatre can justify RIFs in performances, and is an original defence

Airsoft didnt have an original defence in the act but got added, it’s not essential to have a RIF in airsoft as everyone is just playing a game, but it helps in the immersion and the UKARA were successful as an association of retailers and obtained an additional defence which protected the business of airsoft and didn’t kill the marketplace

Other real guns such as starting pistols, deacs etc can all be used irresponsibly but are covered in existing legislation, and as they are not imitations are nothing to do with the VCRA.  Occasionally someone pops up who just wants to collect, and RIFs are cheaper then deacs.  But they don’t have a VCRA Defence

Paijtball doesn’t have a VCRA Defence, there was a small true milsim community at the time but it wasn’t a battle the UKPSF could win so they didn’t fight it.

Paintball guns got more realistic and true magfed came, when retailers went back to the UKPSF they raised the issue with the home office, there remains no VCRA defence but there is now a statement from the home office interpreting what would be Paintball RIFs as either VCRA exempt due to other legislation (treating it as a firearm) or that UKPSF membership as a UKARA equivalent.  Those would be subject to a case in court to decide, but though there is no clear ‘defence’ for retailers in the UKARA context the letter from the home office would be a reasonable legal ‘defence’ to a retailer/seller in court

With both RIFs and firearms both the UKARA or a FAC do not prove an individual will be responsible, but the VCRA gives the reasonable steps to a seller thar the intention was there for justifiable use.

We can only sell to those of the appropriate age and the legal responsibility lies with the adult on their actual use

The VCRA isn’t really about legal use and true imitation firearm crime.  It is a child safety and anti chav law to keep realistic guns from kids in the street and avoid the police shooting a young teen on a firearms call out or a chav robbing the local corner shop with a poundland or market plastic gun

I rest my case mate, it's flawed,  same as the two-tone rule, I and many other shoot more then a few two tone RS guns.. 

But like I say the rules, guidelines, regs and laws are not perfect but could be a heck of a lot worse.. 

ATB Marc 

 

[L3wisD]

And i will not sell a RIF to anyone who can't show me a valid defence or ukara, as a few members on here will know as I have not sold to them, like Lewis for example even though i personally really wanted

This I can attest to  :lol:

Even though I had a defense through meeting guys from here at games, being a long standing member of AFUK, designing the forum patches and having solid feedback buying and selling RIFs on here (even sold one to him!  :lol: ) he wouldn't have it. 

Even though I was gutted (I really wanted that M9 ) I can respect that he stuck to his guns... literally! 

Did you ever shift that M9 in the end Marc?

 

[Marc.RG1]

This I can attest to  :lol:

Even though I had a defense through meeting guys from here at games, being a long standing member of AFUK, designing the forum patches and having solid feedback buying and selling RIFs on here (even sold one to him!  :lol: ) he wouldn't have it. 

Even though I was gutted (I really wanted that M9 ) I can respect that he stuck to his guns... literally! 

Did you ever shift that M9 in the end Marc?

Hi Lewis, lol core you know how to make me feel bad.   :lol:

yeah you knew I really wanted to sell you it to you too mate and to be honest it was really hard for me to say no to you knowing the kind of person and trusted person you are..

Nope still not sold the M9 yet, had a few people ask, some had no defence, one guy had two stamps on his ticket and is meant to be getting his third on the 21st,  so I said I don't mind holding it for him until he gets the third and can send me his ukara, as my local Rfd sold the gun they was holding for me but have more on order,  but his not an active poster on the forum, he did send me photographic Proof etc of name, age, address, game stamp tickets etc, but if I don't hear back from him I'll either try listing it again or just take it out the box and put it back on my display shelf lol.. 

Still no luck getting yours sorted, first come first served, in your case anyway..

ATB Marc 

 

[Rogerborg]

Hi all, I personally agree and follow the vcra act and other shooting rules and regs too, to the letter lol

You're aware that the "letter" of the VCRA, even as amended, says nothing about airsoft, right?

That's what really cracks me up.  We're reliant on a Home Office circular which indicates that the "permitted activities" pencilled into the act as an afterthought secretly refer to airsoft skirmishing.  But that's not explicit in the original act, nor even the subsequent regulatory amendment.  I'd characterise it as being the opinion of some unnamed individual in the Home Office, published on a web page, and subject to being thrown down the Memory Hole or simply ignored by a judge since it's neither statute nor regulation.

Better yet, even if you know that it's "Home Office circular 031 / 2007", the top Google hit I get for that is this site.  Circular indeed.

 

[Marc.RG1]

Yup.. We could discuss all day about some of the simpletons in the home office that come up with or put forward these guidelines etc, but for many years being an all round sporting shooter I tend not to think about it too much to be honest and just go with the flow or I just get wound up lol, it's true though that the rules, guidelines and so called laws around airsoft are a bit flawed, it's much more straightforward and black and white with a lot less grey areas for firearms then airsoft. But I will admit I shoot everything and enjoy everything as long as we are legally allowed to keep doing that then I'm happy enough.

ATB Marc 

 

[L3wisD]

Lewis, lol core you know how to make me feel bad.   :lol:

Just pulling your plonker mate. 

I should really get my finger out and renew my UKARA at some stage though, so it's my own fault really.