Selling RIFs - VCRA Defence/UKARA Checks?

[Kha0s]

Hi! Apologies if this has been answered previously, but I've had a look through a bunch of threads, read the classifieds banner, done some google searches and had a look through some of the legislation, but couldn't find a definitive answer. My understanding is that anyone selling airsoft weapons is personally responsible for verifying that whoever they are selling to has a VCRA defense, whether that be through UKARA registration or otherwise. I just wanted some guidance on how people generally achieve this? From what I gather, it's not possible to search the UKARA database as an individual - only registered retailers have access. Do I need to ask for details of where people regularly play and then verify that with the site operators? Could I be held liable for just accepting a UKARA registration number from someone if I don't have any way to confirm if it's valid?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

everyone kinda has their own standard.

what i typically would have done was asked for ukara, then seen if the site code exists on the ukara site listing.

if i'm feeling a little sus i at least see if it's in the same general region (eg a mainlander isn't giving me an ni site code).

otherwise i just slap the number on the box and call it good.

i've also had folk give me re-enactor id (afaik re-enactor id is only good for relevant pews, ie you can't sell an m4 to a ww2 re-enactor, although in my case that didn't apply), and once dispatched a pew via a local shop we both knew. in buying i have had folk either not ask or even accept my forum presence as a player, although ironically my forum presence would now be a tad deceiving as i'm not playing these days.

end of the day the requirement is that you're satisfied the person your selling your gun-shaped-object to is going to use it for airsoft pewing or other permitted activity, and afaik there isn't any real definition/precedent as to how much effort needs to be put into verification.

 

[Tommikka]

You are correct that it is the seller who is legally liable under the VCRA with regard to a defence for a RIF sale

But this does not mean that you must explicitly verify against the UKARA or other scheme, there have been verification services, but probably due to a combination of cost, resources and ensuring confidentiality there isn’t a UKARA public/self validation service

(A secure process that doesn’t over expose content would be GDPR compliant as the purpose is validation - but there could still be a consent issue on public validation rather than controlled access etc - and retailer members of the UKARA may also prefer that there isn’t a public option)

You just need to apply some common sense due diligence, which is also likely to minimise you getting to the point of needing to back up your decision to sell

Does the buyer act old enough to buy an airsoft gun (RIF or IF) and for RIFs do they appear to be buying for a valid use?

Be extra cautious in the school holidays, if on this forum do they have a posting history (don’t sell a RIF to me because I don’t play airsoft and have said so many times - therefore my forum membership content  is evidence of my lack of valid purpose)

You can ask, and their member site may also be happy with validating them

PS if they tell you they have JustCos membership then refuse the sale 

 

[ak2m4]

(A secure process that doesn’t over expose content would be GDPR compliant as the purpose is validation - but there could still be a consent issue on public validation rather than controlled access etc - and retailer members of the UKARA may also prefer that there isn’t a public option)

Yep went down that road, had a nice prototype system knocked up but based on feedback security / gdpr was a big concern and increasing cost to the project.   I agree it's not in the interest of the controlling members of UKARA to encourage sales of 2nd hand rifs.  

 

[Cannonfodder]

I've heard some people ask a local shop to check the ukara database. Alternatively if the sale is through here have a look at the 'how did your airsoft day go' thread, if they've posted there then there's a high chance they're a player. The loadout pictures thread is also a good place to check as pictures there are often taken in game.

In general trust your gut and treat all sales like a packet of meat that's been in the fridge for a while. If it smells even slightly funky don't bother

 

[Rogerborg]

Do I need to ask for details of where people regularly play and then verify that with the site operators?

Good, in principle. But also in principle, they shouldn't be telling you without getting into an affirmative-ongoing-consent three-way with the buyer.

Could I be held liable for just accepting a UKARA registration number from someone if I don't have any way to confirm if it's valid?

You could, and you're right to ask the question and be ready to adduce some form of defence.

In practice, if it's moving inside the UK, it's vanishingly unlikely that it'll ever be an issue.

I'd be more concerned about the courier losing, stealing, breaking, or crushing it without compensation rather than legal consequences.

 

[Kha0s]

Thanks for the advice everyone! Sounds like if I make a genuine effort to check they have some sort of VCRA defence and apply a bit of common sense, that should be sufficient. As some of you have mentioned, it's (hopefully) very unlikely someone is going to be irresponsible with anything I've sold, so chances of me having to prove my innocence in any way is pretty slim! Really appreciate the help ?

 

[GiantKiwi]

Land Warrior used to help with checks if you phoned them, don't know if they still do as its been about 5 years since I last did it.

 

[jaywebbo]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

 

[Tackle]

 it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

Not technically correct, shops, like any seller, are required to be satisfied the buyer has a defence according to the vcra, obviously for shops ukara is the easiest, but not the only "paper" defence, some legitimate, some slightly shady.

When it comes to private sales, some sellers are adamant they'll only accept ukara, but ultimately it's about convincing a seller that you're a legitimate player, something I've been able to do even though I haven't had ukara for more than a decade.

That is of course on the rare occasion a sellers asks for proof of a defence, most just want to see the colour of your money ?

 

[Rogerborg]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

Nobody said it was illegal to buy, or to own, a RIF.

It's an offence to sell, to import (or cause to be imported), or to manufacture a RIF, or to modify an IF into a RIF.  The same offence applies to everyone. The same defences apply to everyone.

In practice it's simply not enforced on anyone, retail or private, anywhere except at point of entry to the UK.

But this isn't Facebook or Reddit where confidence and VOLUME hold sway. In the law section here, we cite and discuss statutes, regulations and case law.

 

[Cannonfodder]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

So confident and yet so wrong.

Private sales are subject to the same laws as shops, whether or not private sellers are as strict as shops is a different matter.

You're right that a defence isn't needed for ownership but that's not what we're discussing here.

UKARA isn't the only defence and nor is it a legal requirement. A seller just has go be satisfied that the buyer is using it to play airsoft hence why on site shops can sell to players without a site membership.

If the vcra was a person it would be old enough to drink in pubs and vote. How are people still getting this wrong?

 

[The_Lord_Poncho]

If the vcra was a person it would be old enough to drink in pubs

Bet he'd be sh*t company though. Absolute zero banter.

 

[Galvatron]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

From recent experience, that claim about selling/buying is inaccurate. With the boot sales at Shift Your RIFTs, the organisers said in no uncertain terms that private sellers have a responsibility to ensure that buyers have a valid defence to buy a RIF as the event was open to any  Tom, Dick or Harry who may have sinister intentions and not just regular airsofters or novices looking to play on a regular basis.

As Tackle & Rogerborg said, while checking a defence with private sales is in the minority of cases in practice and it's seldom enforced at a retail or private level when the RIF is already in the UK, shouting about your claims doesn't make them correct. The litmus test of your claim is that if enforcement of defence checking happened overnight, you'd find a lot of private sellers could be prosecuted no matter how much you shout that a defence is "not needed".

 

[Tommikka]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

Do tell us which section of the VCRA states that it applies to  ‘shops’ only 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

A defence does cover the shops back - it covers the shop against prosecution.  
 

You are correct that possession is not an offence under the VCRA.   But a private

sale is not possession but the transfer of the possessed item in exchange of monetary consideration, AKA sale 

 

[Bnjemann]

UKARA are ONLY needed by shops. If buying or selling a rif privately they are NOT NEEDED. A UKARA OR DEFENCE is only to cover the SHOP'S back simples. At the end of the day it is NOT ILLEGAL to own a rif it's only illegal for a shop to sell one without a UKARA.

Logically where would that make any sense to even have as a law to begin with? Anyone who is parting with a RIF in exchange for money is applicable for potentially committing an offence under section 36 of the Violent Crime reduction act if due diligence outlined in section 37 is not exercised.

It is the sellers responsibility, Established businesses or private sellers alike, to investigate the circumstances of which the RIF they are selling is going to be used under in any and all circumstances where a RIF is sold. Likewise, it is the seller who will be investigated and charged if breaches of the law occur with the RIF you sold them.

Just so we are clear, the seller, be it a shop, or private individual, has the legal duty to:

- Ensure the individual they are selling any sort of imitation firearm to, imitation marked or not, is over 18.

- Ensure the individual they are selling a realistic imitation firearm to has a valid defense, such as, and ONLY those listed in section 37 of the VCRA, or any “Organised activity or event where relevant third party liability insurance is held” (where airsoft skirmishing comes into play, which would be our relevant defense, sadly also the same thing that is being used by cos players insurance).

I would avoid giving legal advice on this matter until you’ve understood the law you’re consulting on, you run the risk of convincing someone into selling a RIF to Dennis the Menace and ruin our fun when the bubble raised legislators find out something vaguely firearm shaped can be owned on our dainty delicate little island.