My thoughts have turned to the dark side (HPA)... any good M4's or should I go Scorpion?

[RostokMcSpoons]

This has been prompted by the perfect storm of me trying a couple of HPA guns at the weekend (and being impressed, natch), an advert for a used Scorpion appearing, a better-paid job on the immediate horizon, and my natural desire to be one of the cool kids a total w*nker with an accurate-at-long-range, high-ish RoF pew pew.  That I won't need to / be tempted to break / upgrade.

I think it's acknowledged the Scorpion is a pretty damned good gun, whether it's HPA or AEG, and I like 'compact', but it will mean different mag pouches etc (so likely a second webbing setup) whereas if I go with M4 then my current stuff works (apart from somewhere to stash the bottle). 
Oh, and a divorce if my wife finds out the price ?

Are there any good HPA M4s that work out-of-the-box, and have the same reliability, range etc that I should look for?

Also, an ecumenical matter.   I bought a gun last week.  And now I'm thinking of spending *lots* this week.  Is this how it's going to be?  Is this how bankruptcy starts?

 

[Hunka1988]

I have an upgraded aeg version of the Scorpion and I love it but...I have a 7" Wolverine mtw which is now my favourite. 

The advantage of the M4 platform is mag variety with some really high capacity mid caps epm1's etc.

The best thing about the mtw is it's ready to go out of the box. Everything aligned perfectly, lovely and light, with excellent build quality.

It's a little more than the Evo but I would say it is worth it.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Thanks very much Hunka, I've looked at some text reviews of the Wolverine and indeed it seems to be the very thing.   Quite expensive though, especially as I'd want the Milspec version. 

I'm comparing the cost of that versus the ~£500 cost of the all in bundle for the scorpion, and it makes it a tricky decision. 

How often do the MTWs turn up on the used market?  

 

[zwez]

I've seen the Tippmann HPA M4 floating around my local field, but never tried it. It isn't one of those "BB hose" type things but the RoF seems ok.

Other than that I personally would say go have a look at High Pressure Airsoft? They fit engines and you can buy a Line / Tank / Regulator all together I believe.

Or just buy an engine yourself and get the job done DIY-Dad style. Dunno..

Personally never tried any of the scorpion-type guns ever, the M4 has everything you could need in the aftermarket so I never saw the point in changing things up.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

I've been comparing the Tippmann vs Wolverine vs Scorpion last night...   
I'm not so tempted with a DIY approach, as my "bedroom tech-ing" is still at the "hit and miss" stage.   I wouldn't want to mess up a decent gun.

Bear with me while I think out aloud here...

There's already a number of advantages for the Tippmann:
1) Obviously I get to carry on with my existing mag pouches 

2) I can use my existing high cap mags (I like laying down suppressing fire)

3) It's metal 

4) It has recoil.  

5) It's relatively cheap to buy new (£470 with tank, line, regulator)

And the disadvantages

1) Relatively limited RoF (no more than my DE M906, at 15rps)

2) Unsure of max range

With the Scorpion the advantages are

1) Long range even with super-compact gun (65m on video I've seen)

2) Lightweight (polymer)

3) Price... the used one I'm looking at is at a reasonable discount from new

Disadvantages
1) New pouches required, maybe a whole separate belt rig for ease of swapping when changing guns

2) Polymer.  Yeah I know the real gun is too

3) Mid cap mags.   I'll probably need to buy an Odin, I guess? (If I can find one)

The Wolverine I know a bit less about but it can be summed up I think as 
1) Bestest 

2) Mostest expensivest

I like the metal construction of my DE so I'd like more of that feel please.  Yeah the scorpion might be realistic and very solidly made (except for the stock when extended, that is a tad loose), but steel > polymer unless there's a good reason (pistol gas cooldown, weight)

The recoil on the Tippmann is actually a big advantage.  Perhaps the worst thing about HPA is that without the physicality of the piston slamming around, the two I tried are impressively smooth, but feel very much like devices for throwing BBs rather than pew-pew guns.  It's perhaps a tiny psychological difference, but it was there for me.

The mid caps are an issue.  What's the point of having a gun firing at 20+ rps if you've only got 300 rounds to fire across several mags?  
I've been tempted with the idea of mid caps because I don't like winding, and I don't like rattles, but I've got somewhat used to the winding (might buy a Lonex flashmag to try that out), and the rattles can be mostly avoided by either having mags totally brimmed or completely empty.   And I try to move slow-and-smooth most of the time anyway.  (It suits my age and fitness!)


Maybe I need to slow down a little.  The scorpion is local and good, but not my only option, even at its reduced price point.
But I'm going to test shoot it later, we'll have to see if the money in my pocket is fully on fire...
 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

afaik aren't the current tippmanns semi-only? i recall something about only the early versions being auto capable, but slap a big citation needed on that. that said the owners i've talked to all seem to like them.

one thing to bear in mind with conversions is what engine is being used, as that will define a lot about the ability to dial it in to good performance. eg open bolt systems like the polarstar jack/f1 have fundamental problems with getting good consistency compared to closed bolt systems like the f2/fusion- worth checking what's in the evo you're looking at. the wolverine systems claim closed bolt, but i've not used them enough to comment fairly on how they perform.

i wouldn't be too worried about conversion, it's a relatively easy process (compared to aeg teching anyway) and for the most part nozzle alignment isn't too bad if the gearbox used is correct for the bodyshell (ie you started with a complete donor gun). normally nozzle alignment gets talked about with regards to the likes of the fusion engine, which as a total gearbox replacement has the same "compatible ish" fitment problems that you'd get with an aftermarket aeg gearbox.

the mid cap problem is easy to solve- get an odin

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Thanks Adolf. 

I looked at the Scorpion again yesterday.  It wouldn't shoot.  He plugged in the air and it kept coming out of the gun on the first attempt.  Pulling out the line and reattaching it, nothing came out.  It was a borrowed tank with its own regulator, could that have caused the issue? 

The battery was charged, could hear the solenoid clicking when the trigger was pulled.

It's probably something simple but I think that's rather killed that option!

Anyway the result of that is I found my heart says I want the Tippmann or the Wolverine.  And the Wolverines are sold out everywhere. 

I may be looking at a used Tippmann v2 today, it comes with a few bits and pieces and minor upgrades: tight bore barrel and bucking. And a big secondary air cylinder to keep in the car...

Problem is I'll only be able to shoot it at short range, so I'll get no idea if it will really outshoot my DE enough to justify the outlay

 

[Tackle]

Be prepared ?

View attachment 87198

 

[MAX DICKER]

Oh, and a divorce if my wife finds out the price ?

It's "twenty quid off a mate", it ALWAYS just "twenty quid off a mate".

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Thanks Adolf. 

I looked at the Scorpion again yesterday.  It wouldn't shoot.  He plugged in the air and it kept coming out of the gun on the first attempt.  Pulling out the line and reattaching it, nothing came out.  It was a borrowed tank with its own regulator, could that have caused the issue? 

some regs need to be turned on as well as adjusted to pressure, or perhaps it was low on air. did you find out what engine it had?

I may be looking at a used Tippmann v2 today, it comes with a few bits and pieces and minor upgrades: tight bore barrel and bucking. And a big secondary air cylinder to keep in the car...

a scuba cylinder is a damn handy thing to have, but be sure to check that it's all up to date on inspection/safety testing, 3000psi is not joking around pressure.

Problem is I'll only be able to shoot it at short range, so I'll get no idea if it will really outshoot my DE enough to justify the outlay

that's a tricky one to gauge. you get a well setup system with the right supporting elements (barrel, hop, ammo) then it'll be great, but as i mentioned before certain setups can struggle to match what a decent aeg can do. i'm not familiar enough with the mechanics of the tippmann system to really comment what the ceiling is for them.

if your goal is range/accuracy then i'd suggest looking at the polarstar f2, it's pricey but it's pretty adaptable (in terms of what guns you can/can't put it in) and if you get it dialled in right (with the right supporting elements) it's not far, possibly even right on the limit of what an airsoft pew can do. only reason i sold mine was because i was quitting the whole hpa ecosystem.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

some regs need to be turned on as well as adjusted to pressure, or perhaps it was low on air. did you find out what engine it had?

.... <snip>

The engine in the asg scorpion is a custom factory fit thing.  It'd be fine.  

It's moot now, I bought the Tippmann! 

Wow that thing is fun to shoot.  I had in the back of my mind to one day get a gbbr, this is going to scratch the itch with its dramatic noise and recoil. 

I just hope the range can exceed my DE. 

Yes the scuba tank has plenty of time before the next inspection due. 

Small problem is I need to smuggle the gun into the house as the wife doesn't know.  What the hell can I say if she spots the scuba tank ??? it'll have to live in the boot of the car ?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

The engine in the asg scorpion is a custom factory fit thing.  It'd be fine

Aye the issue isnt the fitting, its the mechanics of how the engine runs.

It's moot now, I bought the Tippmann! 

Wow that thing is fun to shoot.  I had in the back of my mind to one day get a gbbr, this is going to scratch the itch with its dramatic noise and recoil. 

I just hope the range can exceed my DE

Yeah every tippmann owner i've talked to has good things to say, and what little trigger time i have on them was pretty decent.

Yes the scuba tank has plenty of time before the next inspection due. 

Good good, not worth risking an out of date tank.

Small problem is I need to smuggle the gun into the house as the wife doesn't know.  What the hell can I say if she spots the scuba tank ??? it'll have to live in the boot of the car ?

Yeah you're on your own there

 

[zwez]

It's moot now, I bought the Tippmann! 

I feel honoured knowing i contributed to a dude on a forum vomiting his money into a hpa gun now. 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Vomiting may be the correct word to use, the darned thing shoots fantastically "PEW PEW PEW" but it has no accuracy, everything curves off to the right at 15m.
For a gun with a TDC hop unit, I was not expecting any problems there.

 

[zwez]

Vomiting may be the correct word to use, the darned thing shoots fantastically "PEW PEW PEW" but it has no accuracy, everything curves off to the right at 15m.
For a gun with a TDC hop unit, I was not expecting any problems there.

Ah, well, this is airsoft, so you'll be able to upgrade / mod / change it somehow..
..After you recover from the ~~£450 financial blow ?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Vomiting may be the correct word to use, the darned thing shoots fantastically "PEW PEW PEW" but it has no accuracy, everything curves off to the right at 15m.
For a gun with a TDC hop unit, I was not expecting any problems there.

consistently curving to the right sounds like the hop isn't sitting square, usual suspects being inner barrel being slightly rotated, the hop arm/nub not being square or the hop rubber not sitting right.

other option could be some damage to the inner barrel or some aspect of the outer barrel (particularly prevalent with suppressors) that the bb is clipping on the way out.

however that should be a fixable issue, worst case maybe a new barrel if it's damaged but more likely just a re-seating of the barrel and hop components.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

As I can't yet work out how to disassemble the gun (beyond splitting the receiver), I've so far only looked down the barrel from the muzzle end, illuminating with my phone's light through the feed tube (with a stick of paper positioned to bounce the light around the corner - it works though)

I can't see any obvious dirt in the barrel.  I can tell I've got the hop all the way off, but when I apply hop it seems to be being applied from the top correctly, and it seems aligned.

There's a thread on another forum which mentions the possibility that the nozzle doesn't align correctly with the barrel until it's forced into the correct position at the last moment as it moves forward, and that therefore some of the air may be thrusting on the bb from the side rather than directly behind.  Unfortunately the thread hasn't been updated since the idea was postulated in 2018, but if it's true I've no idea that would get fixed 

It has (allegedly) been upgraded with a Prommy tight bore.   Maybe it needs a barrel swap.  I guess I could stick in the stock barrel from F2000 or my AR15 to see if that makes any difference... once I figure out how to get to it!
 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I can't see any obvious dirt in the barrel.  I can tell I've got the hop all the way off, but when I apply hop it seems to be being applied from the top correctly, and it seems aligned.

if the barrel seems clean then that's a good sign it's not that, for the hop can sometimes be very subtle, especially with fancy contact patches (eg ml).

There's a thread on another forum which mentions the possibility that the nozzle doesn't align correctly with the barrel until it's forced into the correct position at the last moment as it moves forward, and that therefore some of the air may be thrusting on the bb from the side rather than directly behind.  Unfortunately the thread hasn't been updated since the idea was postulated in 2018, but if it's true I've no idea that would get fixed 

not outside the realm of possibility, that's the nozzle alignment you normally hear talked about with converting aeg's. for example dropping a fusion engine into a reciever that doesn't quite line up right compared to the original gearbox is a common issue.

that said, you wouldn't normally expect it to be an issue on a factory built gun like the tippmanns (or the mtw).

one wonders if perhaps it's a side effect of the barrel swap (ie something not being lined up properly on reassembly), i've never taken a tippmann apart so idk if that's a possibility.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

I'll be taking it apart soon, but I spent a bit more time looking down the barrel from the muzzle end, and the nozzle does look a little high and to the side.
I'm hoping there are some built-in adjusters to fine-tune the nozzle alignment, I need to have a dig through the manuals etc

I've contacted the seller so he knows there's a discussion to be had if this can't be sorted easily.  Hopefully it won't come to that!

Edit: took it apart, I think the hop rubber got pinched and so its impinging on the right side of the barrel... Hopefully that's the problem! 

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Yup, it was (mostly) that pinched hop rubber.  Put in the rubbish-feeling Cybergun rubber and it 90% fixed it.

I've since put in the Guarder Clear that was supposed to go in the AUG High Cycle, and that's improved it further.  

With the gun in bits I could see the nozzle alignment is actually ok.  It's not perfect though.
 

I've dialled in the hop so it's lifting 0.28's on to the aiming point ok.    It's still not as accurate as I'd like, most of the shots are good, but I'm getting a few fliers (some dropping low, some curving slightly left or right)... which might be a combination of the air seals needing lubing / improving, and the hop rubber needing time to bed in.   As an HPA noob I'm very open to suggestions.  I might well buy a small bottle of 0.32's to see if it'll lift those, for a start.

It's great to fire though, a real step-up from AEGs and a world away from the couple of 'normal' HPAs I've fired 
I suspect I might still yearn for some 'laser-beam' accuracy before long though.  Perhaps I'll try a wide-bore barrel in there, to replace the Prommy tight-bore, as I'm not really fussed about efficiency.
 

Edit: Here's a wide-bore I'd seen mentioned in a video last night, and as it happens it's reviewed by a Tippmann user...
https://www.thecageairsoft.co.uk/orga-magnushd-barrel-widebore-6-13mm-aeg/#review