Would Airsoft be bigger in the UK without ukara?

[STORMZOMBIES]

Bogus premise is indeed bogus.  The issue is VCRA 2006, not any of the ways around it that allow retailers, importers and airsoft to exist.

You didn't have to.

If you were stopped going to or from a skirmish in possession of a RIF, or an IF, and required to provide a reasonable excuse for purposes of Firearms Act 1968 S19 (the proof whereof lies on you) what would you say?  "Because UKARA," is not sufficient as an excuse for possession in public, and neither is it necessary as a defence to modifying an IF into a RIF.

And as you've pointed out (although I suspect most folk missed the reference to Just Cos) there are ways to get a retailer to sell you a RIF without ever playing airsoft.

Actually, I've just spotted the delicious irony there.  The one retailer that I know accepts Just Cos as their defence is https://www.airsoftworld.net

Guess who runs the UKARA scheme?

i know airsoftworld takes justcos as i have used it to buy my RIF 

Na, it is just advertised wayyyyyyy better than airsoft. Another big selling point to casuals is the kill confirmation that paintball naturally possesses. Whereas, in airsoft, you have to use this perplexing, baffling term called "honestly".

Paintball is pushed very hard into the public with stalls everywhere asking you to sign up. Even in my high school and university had peeps who were assertive into giving you their leaflet as if their lives depended on it.

yeah I was in college and there was a group outside handing leaflets to everyone outside and even down by Kingston station seems to be paintball guys regularly trying to get more guys into the hobby would be nice if some sites tried doing this

 

[TheFull9]

Na, it is just advertised wayyyyyyy better than airsoft. Another big selling point to casuals is the kill confirmation that paintball naturally possesses. Whereas, in airsoft, you have to use this perplexing, baffling term called "honestly".

Paintball is pushed very hard into the public with stalls everywhere asking you to sign up. Even in my high school and university had peeps who were assertive into giving you their leaflet as if their lives depended on it.

I think that last point might well be because paintball is seemingly dying off whereas airsoft has grown hugely.  I've seen airsoft societies at absolutely tons of unis, thriving ones at that.

I'm not aware of any statistics on paintball player numbers or numbers of active paintball retailers vs the same numbers for airsoft, but the CoD generation (which is now the PUBG/Fortnite generation) is, I would imagine, going to be far more taken in by airsoft when you've got social media behemoths like LadBible sharing Novritsch videos.  I thoroughly dislike both of those entities, but I think the fact remains.

 

[Guest]

I qualified for my UKARA by doing practical pistol evenings and using my local range, never skirmished in my life ?

 

[jcheeseright]

Good luck Jason and enjoy.

It may be a hurdle to the sport but that is far preferable to the chaos which would ensue if anyone could buy a RIF.

After all, its not so difficult to play the three games and get registered with UKARA.

Really? Before 2006 anyone could buy a RIF and I don’t remember there being chaos on the streets! 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Honestly don't think it makes a huge difference or at least not to me.

I would play with a two tone if needed as it is just a bb flinger and I don't see them as anything to do with real weapons.

I play for the game and the camaraderie  nothing else.  If anybody didn't get into airsoft because of having to use a two tone and not being oper8tor? enough then to be honest that might not be a bad thing as it's one less delusional fucker to deal with.

Ukara is just an easy answer to keep the hippies happy.

 

[EvilMonkee]

Bogus premise is indeed bogus.  The issue is VCRA 2006, not any of the ways around it that allow retailers, importers and airsoft to exist.

You didn't have to.

If you were stopped going to or from a skirmish in possession of a RIF, or an IF, and required to provide a reasonable excuse for purposes of Firearms Act 1968 S19 (the proof whereof lies on you) what would you say?  "Because UKARA," or in your case "Just Cos", is not sufficient as an excuse for possession in public, and neither is it necessary as a defence to modifying an IF into a RIF.

And as you've pointed out yourself, there are ways to get a retailer to sell you a RIF independently of ever having played airsoft.

Actually, I've just spotted the delicious irony there.  The one retailer that I know accepts Just Cos as their defence is https://www.airsoftworld.net

Guess who runs the UKARA scheme?

UKARA is ran by Frank Bothamly at Fire Support not Airsoft World AFAIK

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

UKARA is ran by Frank Bothamly at Fire Support not Airsoft World AFAIK

Yep

 

[Tommikka]

I think that last point might well be because paintball is seemingly dying off whereas airsoft has grown hugely.  I've seen airsoft societies at absolutely tons of unis, thriving ones at that.

I'm not aware of any statistics on paintball player numbers or numbers of active paintball retailers vs the same numbers for airsoft, but the CoD generation (which is now the PUBG/Fortnite generation) is, I would imagine, going to be far more taken in by airsoft when you've got social media behemoths like LadBible sharing Novritsch videos.  I thoroughly dislike both of those entities, but I think the fact remains.

I have seen some Paintball trade stats over the years, I can’t recall the scale of them as I’m currently sat in a field on the cider

I wouldn’t say that you see people marketing people because it’s in decline, but due to the competition

Paintball as an occasional activity for the rentals is the core market.  This is where you see the dominator of Delta Force and their ticket sellers International Paintball Games.  Other sites market themselves and leaflet people to compete against Delta Force 

Regular players are hard to quantify but are in the minority, there are more people playing in the CPPS national tournament then will join the UKPSF as player members as the national body

I see airsoft as being bigger than Paintball in the own gunners / regular players 

But it’s hard to read that some airsoft sites are running with volunteer Marshall’s, this implies that either the site is unsustainable or the owners are rubbing their hands in glee with the volunteers doing it for free

Airsoft fits in well with experience days such as zombie experiences etc, which isn’t playing the game but the average guy off the street paying good money for a fun day out 

 

[MisterG]

Had I known about UKARA before my first skirmish, it might have put me off.  I only found out about it after having played and enjoyed it enough to not be bothered after all.

 

[mattaddiction]

I don't really think UKARA has any bearing on the number of participants in the sport, you want to try it, you go to a site and rent...   (of one of us drags you along and sorts out some loner kit for the 'small' armory most of us have...) where does UKARA come in to it?

UKARA is only an issue if you want to buy toys...  Not if you want to play?!

matt

 

[Gtech]

Actually, I've just spotted the delicious irony there.  The one retailer that I know accepts Just Cos as their defence is https://www.airsoftworld.net

Guess who runs the UKARA scheme?

It's not AW  But he was the chairman of UKARA a long time ago, if I'm right he was the very first chair.

I also believe he was one of the guys who set up Just-Cos. Ultimately, since the police aren't cracking down on it, it's going to be the wild west - just like UKASA.

Just-Cos has no standing in the VCRA, anyone who's buying it might as well buy without a defence. Airsoft has it's own specific defence. Cosplay is not applied to the VCRA until you get the Home Office to grant a change in law from the 'historical reenactment' statement.

Same way that Practical Pistol Shooting didn't get covered in the VCRA.

If you're purchasing the RIF with the intent to use it for Airsoft, thus you should be using the Airsoft permitted activity exemption. Anything else puts us in a bad position if it's shown that we are not even monitor our own industry.
 

 I really wanna see a massive airsoft superstore like Evike in the UK as well as more fields and field variety. What do other people think about this topic please share your thoughts.

I think it's terrible, Evike have the monopoly and that stops local retailers massively. I'd be quite gutted if we were limited by choice to only 1 big retailer, competition is good in my eyes. Mr. Evike also see the UK Market as far too small. 

Really? Before 2006 anyone could buy a RIF and I don’t remember there being chaos on the streets! 

It was to do with the way the police recorded crime, they changed it prior (2004?). It meant every call of a gun meant it had to be recorded and passed to armed response, rather than the local bobby taking a look to find little Timmy playing with his friends with a plinker.

As soon as those numbers added up, it served the government's purpose to crack down and look like they're taking action.

 

[sonofsammo]

If you were stopped going to or from a skirmish in possession of a RIF, or an IF, and required to provide a reasonable excuse for purposes of Firearms Act 1968 S19 (the proof whereof lies on you) what would you say?  "Because UKARA," or in your case "Just Cos", is not sufficient as an excuse for possession in public, and neither is it necessary as a defence to modifying an IF into a RIF.

Sorry if this has been covered before elsewhere - but what is a reasonable excuse wrt the firearms act?
I'm guessing this differs from valid defence?
TIA
 

 

[Rogerborg]

It's not AW  But he was the chairman of UKARA a long time ago, if I'm right he was the very first chair. 

Aaah, I was going by the whois address of ukara.org.uk which was a residential address in Fife just down the road from AW.  It's been thrown down the memory hole now, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that it was originally registered there and never updated.  The actual hosting server currently appears to be located in Germany (boo, hiss).

Overheard at a local site, 47 retailers pay in excess of £300 per annum each for access to the UKARA database, which brings in about £15K a year.  UKAPU claim that there are 60,000 active airsofters in the UK. If accurate (it sounds... somewhat optimistic), that's 25p per player, which is pretty good value.

Per ukara.org.uk, "The database service is an in house secure system run on UKARA [sic] own dedicated server."  Given that the basic authentication password challenge on a supar-sekrit port can be done over unsecured http, I'd wonder about the "secure" part.  Whether the database itself is simply an Excel spreadsheet (again, as overheard anecdotally) is an exercise for the reader to imagine.

Just-Cos has no standing in the VCRA, anyone who's buying it might as well buy without a defence.

Why would buyers need a defence?  The risk is all on sellers.  If AW wants to argue that cosplay is "theatrical performance", that's on them.  It bothers me only as much as it might let RIFs get into the paws of wrong 'uns, but as previously noted, an IF and a can of shoplifted black paint is cheaper.

Sorry if this has been covered before elsewhere - but what is a reasonable excuse wrt the firearms act?
I'm guessing this differs from valid defence?
TIA

If it's not being on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site (the nebulous "permitted activity" from the 2007 Amendment), then we're all in trouble.

If it is, then that's our defence to modification.

 

[Arwen]

I'm not sure how much difference UKARA makes, but it certainly didn't put me off playing, or buying a RIF. When I went to buy my first RIF, the UKARA database had not been updated yet with my details, so the shop I was buying from simply rang up my local sites shop, who confirmed who I was and that I was a regular player. No problems. 

The only hurdle would have been if I really did not want to hire for 3/4 games. However at my local site, gun hire is included in the walk on fee so it is no added expense. I could see if being annoying if you need to pay a reasonable amount for gun hire on top of a walk on fee. It also gave me time to decide what I wanted and how much I actually wanted to sink into this sport. 

 

[sonofsammo]

If it's not being on the way to or from an airsoft skirmish at an insured site (the nebulous "permitted activity" from the 2007 Amendment), then we're all in trouble.

I'm guessing transporting between retailer and home?
Between home/tech, tech/home?
 

If you're on your way to or from a skirmish, can you leave them locked in the boot if you have to stop and get out? E.g. pee break / go shop / buy fuel etc....

 

[Gtech]

Overheard at a local site, 47 retailers pay in excess of £300 per annum each for access to the UKARA database, which brings in about £15K a year.  UKAPU claim that there are 60,000 active airsofters in the UK. If accurate (it sounds... somewhat optimistic), that's 25p per player, which is pretty good value.

  

Per ukara.org.uk, "The database service is an in house secure system run on UKARA [sic] own dedicated server."  Given that the basic authentication password challenge on a supar-sekrit port can be done over unsecured http, I'd wonder about the "secure" part.  Whether the database itself is simply an Excel spreadsheet (again, as overheard anecdotally) is an exercise for the reader to imagine.

It's less than 47 since the fallout last year - and 60k players was accurate from the conversations we had. However, whether that's 'active' or just on the register is another thing entirely. I'd be interest (but doubt it) whether the statistics could be broken down by Frank and put out there publicly.

I can't say much about the new database, but rest assured you're not wrong ? That's for a different day though.

 

[MisterG]

I think active and on the database are two different things.  I am pretty active (e.g. 3 skirms this month), but not on the UKARA database.

Cheers

G

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I think active and on the database are two different things.  I am pretty active (e.g. 3 skirms this month), but not on the UKARA database.

Cheers

G

they are, the database is just an easy flag to show you're active to retailers that don't know you personally.

 

[Rogerborg]

It's less than 47 since the fallout last year

Still 47 at http://ukara.org.uk/#approved

Is there rebellion afoot?  I know there have been UKian People Airsofters / People Airsofters of UKia rival schemes in the past, but it seems that UKARA has a monopoly on the market at the moment.

 

[Gtech]

Still 47 at http://ukara.org.uk/#approved

Is there rebellion afoot?  I know there have been UKian People Airsofters / People Airsofters of UKia rival schemes in the past, but it seems that UKARA has a monopoly on the market at the moment.

  

Maybe they've rekindled signups since I last checked, it's been a while. Problem was when the database went off for a few months while they were still asking for renewals.

You're right though, there aren't any suitable replacements than UKARA beyond site-defence options. Nothing on the scale that UKARA offers for sure.