Would Airsoft be bigger in the UK without ukara?

[Nick G]

The Home Office set out a minimum of 3 games in OVER 2 months. That's in the VCRA.

That's what I thought.

UKARA set out the requirement that it must be at the same site, and that the site must have proper liability business insurance for airsoft skirmishing.

This seems sensible 

 

[Gtech]

This seems sensible 

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

i guess the same location thing is just a practical matter of how are different unaffiliated sites going to track a player going to different places.

it would have made more sense to have the ukara as a system where each person gets logged for every site attendance, that way we'd have a database of just how many active players there are in the uk.

 

[Tommikka]

Originally it was over 6 months (10games if I recall), so yes - we got a better deal.

I don't like the fact it's at the same location, and it's something I'm working on in private - but that's for another time on another thread.

It doesn’t absolutely have to be on the same site, UKARA recognised Southampton Airsoft Society and permitted them to track members attendance across events hosted by the society  on multiple sites 

 

[Gtech]

It doesn’t absolutely have to be on the same site, UKARA recognised Southampton Airsoft Society and permitted them to track members attendance across events hosted by the society  on multiple sites 

I presume you have insurance as a society? Have you got your own ID number, sounds like they've set you up as a site owner?

it would have made more sense to have the ukara as a system where each person gets logged for every site attendance, that way we'd have a database of just how many active players there are in the uk.

+10 points to the man with the German Officer cap! ?

Considering they rebuilt the system in August-October last year, it's crazy to see it follow the same system just on a updated but equally shit codebase ?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Considering they rebuilt the system in August-October last year, it's crazy to see it follow the same system just on a updated but equally shit codebase ?

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

 

[Gtech]

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

  

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

  

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

I'll speak with the admins in the future when I've got stuff to show, but yes - there are better methods that could be used to make the entire process simpler, way quicker and ultimately could provide more options out there. 

With that said, this isn't to knock off UKARA - but they have no interest in developing the other aspects I'm working on. We've already had that discussion, they've seen the presentation and had the opportunity (and did) ask questions during the meeting.

 

[BigStew]

indeed, it does strike me as odd given the amount of techy types you see in this game that they couldn't find somebody to whip up a fancier system.

all they'd need is a "game day" form where a site owner can simply jot down the name/age/walk-on status of each player (as some sites already do anyway for their own records) and add it to the record.

better yet just issue everyone who wants to join up with ukara with a number and enter that at each site then it'll keep track of you as a player, how many games you've done etc.

if we had some proper data on how many skirmishers there are it'd be a great tool for legitimising the sport even more and gathering a bit more public awareness.

That requires cooperation and money. Not exactly in a sites best interest 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

I'll speak with the admins in the future when I've got stuff to show, but yes - there are better methods that could be used to make the entire process simpler, way quicker and ultimately could provide more options out there. 

With that said, this isn't to knock off UKARA - but they have no interest in developing the other aspects I'm working on. We've already had that discussion, they've seen the presentation and had the opportunity (and did) ask questions during the meeting.

it's nice to see someone's putting the effort in, i know it's going to have running costs, but split that over all the airsofters in the uk i think we can find a fiver in our back pockets that can go towards letting us spend money on kit.

it's the chicken and egg problem- a popular system would be cheap to the end user because of a large user base, but to get there it needs investment.

 

[ak2m4]

Without derailing this thread, or promoting my own stuff - I'm working on something that I hope helps improves the systems and offers an alternative to UKARA. It's still WIP but it's been very well received when presented to a handful of sites and approved by retailers who have seen it develop over the months.

Good job.  Whilst UKARA did it's job back in 2007 it just hasn't progressed much further.  I think the sport would have grown further had the numerous sites around the country formed a collective to create their own system where players / playing time could be tracked.   Very interested to see what's coming

 

[Tommikka]

I presume you have insurance as a society? Have you got your own ID number, sounds like they've set you up as a site owner?

Not me, but they did register the society as a site, and they negotiated the position to act as an all encompassing UKARA site to cover all venues attended opposed to their original requirement to have the members play their qualifying games in a single site 

As an organiser I have only run airsoft events on an existing site so they do any UKARA / membership work involved 

 

[Gtech]

Not me, but they did register the society as a site, and they negotiated the position to act as an all encompassing UKARA site to cover all venues attended opposed to their original requirement to have the members play their qualifying games in a single site 

  

As an organiser I have only run airsoft events on an existing site so they do any UKARA / membership work involved 

Yeah, exactly - they register as a site, then confirm events and have the chair of the society sign off on the attendance. It's a club membership essentially, the group would likely have insurance to cover them the same way that reenactment societies do.

I've notice UKARA are accepting reenactment societies recently as well, I presume they're in the same situation having issues proving their defence.

It's a solution for sure, my concern is how easy it is to falsify - which in turn reveals another loophole and potential lack of responsibility under the VCRA. Of course, it would be the chair of the society who gets the blame - since they've become the auditor in the paper-trail.

 

[Nick G]

That requires cooperation and money. Not exactly in a sites best interest 

And time, hard to see what the benefit is to the site owners TBH.

 

[BigStew]

Yeah, exactly - they register as a site, then confirm events and have the chair of the society sign off on the attendance. It's a club membership essentially, the group would likely have insurance to cover them the same way that reenactment societies do.

I've notice UKARA are accepting reenactment societies recently as well, I presume they're in the same situation having issues proving their defence.

It's a solution for sure, my concern is how easy it is to falsify - which in turn reveals another loophole and potential lack of responsibility under the VCRA. Of course, it would be the chair of the society who gets the blame - since they've become the auditor in the paper-trail.

Reenactment societies are similar to airsoft sites they need to have public liability insurance to qualify.

 

[Seven]

I wouldn't necessarily say it stops the hobby growing but its, at least for me, a blocker to playing as much as I would like.

I've deliberately not played since my last game so as to space out my 3 games to meet the UKARA requirements and not have to pay extra to hire a weapon I don't want to use, eyepro I don't need and BB's Ill hardly use once I get my own weapon.

So instead of playing 7+ times in the required time period im limiting to 3.

When I finally get my own weapon I'll be at every game day I can drag myself to.

I have the itch to play lots but im being held back.

Short term problem but still a problem nonetheless.

 

[Mathias33]

UKARA didn’t stop me from getting into airsoft, I found a site I liked the look of, bought a two tone (I know to some people this heinous and I could’ve rented) and went and played.

 

[Huxley]

UKARA certainly isn't putting me off playing, and I do appreciate its being there to prevent any kids doing something silly.

It is however holding me from playing more often. I don't want a rental I want my own gun, and I'm feeling a bit left out seeing everyone with lovely RIF's but then we've all had to start at some point.

And on the upside I've done nothing save since I started, so am at the point that I can buy pretty much any gun I fancy.

Actually that might make things worse, so much choice.

 

[BigStew]

Not registered with UKARA, never have been. Honestly don't intend to either. I have played loads, more than enough to qualify for it but I don't see why a random site of my choosing get's to earn a tenner off of registering me on a site that should, in all fairness, be absolutely 100% FREE!

Seen this with a few others on forums Not sure why people take it  as a badge of pride to not having UKARA.

It's no where near a perfect system but with out UKARA there would be no airsoft and with number I can import airsoft from anywhere in the world hassle free.

Also why should it be free? People's time is worth something. My local site owner doesn't charge which is very good of him. He still spends most of the the lunch break dealing with UKARA forms. There is the time he has to spend processing them sometimes it's quick but if there is problem it can take hours of back and forth to sort. 

 

[BigStew]

I’m sure you can do it yourself 

Possibly but you still need site to verify you. Not 100 percent sure on process but my ukara number is linked to my local site. 

Not a badge of pride at all. Just never got around to it and I've been playing at completely dfifferent sites each month.

Not sure why the system isn't automated online with normal verification such as drivers licence or passport. All you're doing is registering into a database so, if for any legal reason your contact details can be attained.

Drivers licence /passport details are held by one governing legitive body. Where as UKARA is a single body but requires input from God knows how many separate organisations.

 

[Keldon]

Drivers licence /passport details are held by one governing legitive body. Where as UKARA is a single body but requires input from God knows how many separate organisations.

This is the same as diving be it padi/bsac governing body with input from dive schools/clubs and it seems to work fine.