Will I get PME?

[Sitting Duck]

Part II

The Lonex tappet plate is similar to some f*cking poxy CYMA M4's

they have slight cut-outs up front of box where they are thinner

and it is a f*cking pain but here some SHS tappets to go in

The original clear tappet clears the sector gear area no problem in pic 1:

OK but gotta mod other tappets up front - before/after in pic 2:

and in fitting the fin needed a slight trim to avoid hitting the outer collar of axle (brass/copper sleeve):

Now also the fin might hit a shim on top of sector but hmmm doubt it but worth a check

can always slightly angle the outer edge of fin to assist it slipping past shim/bushing/bearing if risk of catching

I have had to do that a few times if I felt the edges of fin snagging

I'M NOT SAYING TEAR UP THE FIN - nope

BUT CHECK some stuff out

and only if you are 101% certain do you reach for fine needle files and stuff like that

It is a f*cking pain all round and I'd much rather not feel the urge to pi$$ball about with stuff if I felt it don't need it

I'm hoping some of this might give you a few ideas of crap to check next time you open the box

BUT BUT BUT BUT

BEFORE you go nutz let's check some crap out first without ripping box open just yet

Box in lower receiver with motor blah blah blah

get box just ready to fire - piston 75% retracted & tappet/nozzle fully forward 

NOW try with 3 hands to load a bb into barrel/hop

holding the hop/barrel up against the front of box

you should feel slight resistance if nozzle fully forward as it presses against bucking lips

try with the extra hand you don't have to steady the sods together and fire the gun

See how that shoots - would say chrono's but you might not have one

This is tricky bitch of a thing to do and may take a few attempts to get it to work/fire with it all held together

BUT the point of this should show if box issue inside

OR

An alignment issue of hop & box not sealing correctly or fully back etc....

You need to try to check & narrow down just where the heck the wheels started to loosen

and now they not quite rolling correctly no more

if the box still fires crap when you try to hold the box/hop together by hand after a few attempts

then yeah very likely it is tappet nozzle or something related not allowing stuff to seal properly

if the gun fires eventually holding it by hand then it might be an alignment issue

it is probably the tappet plate and or the fin catching on shim/sector gear/sector's axle

but need to check all crap out just in case than just dive in & jump to conclusions

hope some of this helps

 

[Katana]

Thanks for the info man I really do appreciate it because I had no idea so much could affect the tappet plate timing. I shortened a new spring because I installed a fresh tappet spring after the last one that was also shortened became really weak which must mean that the last person who I gave it to must have used some sh*tty spring for the job. Another reason why I insist on working on my gun myself from now on instead of giving it to local shops unless I hear some seriously good things about a certain tech. I don't know if this fixed it or switching the delayer around but it is that metal one you put up and I believe it was round the wrong way after looking at some installs online of delay chips but I had no idea as I had never installed one.

I have no idea what spring he used but upon shortening the new spring, I also checked to see if the tappet snagged up on the sector at the fully forward position which it did not and so threw it all back together and BOOM!

She works...No idea of the fps but it's consistent which is what I'm looking for and as long as she shoots above 310 and below 350, I won't touch anything else.

I can take my gun apart to the gearbox and put it back together in like 15-20 minutes now which is crazy considering the first time I ever had it apart, it took me 3 hours. Shimming didn't take half the time as well and I feel like I'm just generally getting better at working sh*t out around the gearbox but there is still a lot I don't know. 

Just a quick question though for future purchasing, how do the Lonex 16:1's stack up against the SHS 16:1's? Aside from quality control, are they more durable? Have you had any experience with them?

Other than that, thanks for helping me out yet again with le pew sticks. I can speak for everyone when I say that I honestly really do appreciate you taking the time to help me and others out around the forum. 

 

[Sitting Duck]

Part III - or a follow up bit....

I know you have assembled Lonex this & Lonex that with more Lonex bits n bobs...

AND yes in theory these Lonex bits in a Lonex box with a Lonex Hop unit "should" work 101%

BUT sometimes that doesn't mean it will always be the case or the level of detailed checking can be forgotten

The Lonex nozzle is according to AirLabs 

Nozzle Lengths:

19.63mm -  AK Series
20.40mm - MP5-A4/A5/SD5/SD6 Series
20.73mm - P90 Series
20.77mm - M16A1 VN/XM177E2/CAR-15 Series
20.96mm - LMG Series
21.05mm - MP5-K/PDW Series
21.13mm - PSG-1 Series
21.20mm - G3-A3/A4/SG-1/MC51 Series
21.22mm - M16A2/M4A1/SR16 Series
22.26mm - SIG 550/551/552 Series 
24.27mm - G36 Series 
24.60mm - AUG Series 
24.61mm - M14 Series

presume you have got the 21.22mm one

BUT that is still about 0.20 or 0.25mm shorter than a SHS Red M4 one @ 21.50mm

(think these were too long and feel they have shortened their nozzles to 21.45mm lately)

You don't HAVE to use ALL LONEX PARTS

But the point I'm try to make is that there is still quite a fine line of $hit working and not working

Now nozzle lengths vary - an M4 can be like a little over 21mm to say 21.5mm

may not seem much but half a mm can be difference on sealing or lips blowing

Use a nozzle too long and the nozzle won't fully clear the feed tube to chamber a bb at speed

it isn't such a thing of just holding the nozzle back a little longer if she doesn't just clear to chamber a 5.95mm bb

Now the SHS Tappets retract a little more than other tappet plates - this is a fact

The round delay clip I use if you look very very carefully there is a whisker more material covering the pin

So again this round delay clip will retract the tappet plate a whisker further back

Combine the SHS Tappet & the Copper delay clip and you can retract the nozzle about 1mm further back

Meaning it will feed better as nozzle will clear hop feed tube

HOWEVER.....

Combining the SHS tappet & the round delayer the tappet/nozzle can very likely get retracted TOO FAR BACK

It can bottom out on the piston head or edge of cylinder !!!!

So before people rush out and copy everything like for like - you need to check stuff out and further mods perhaps

I strongly advise checking the sector & tappet in top half of gearbox

(it is a bit wobbly doing this close checking in with all the gears but see how the retraction varies....)

Original tappet and sector gear - pin was fat so couldn't fit the delay on a chubby tappet pin:

Now SHS tappet - filed at front only, delay clip see the retraction difference:

NOW THIS WILL GET WRECKED so don't just slap this together but showing the retraction difference

(you need to space cylinder head and grind cylinder to clear this further retraction)

REALLY DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE DETAIL SO MUCH IN PICTURES - it was just an example of $hit varying

Now Nozzle lengths vary - quite a bit

a longer nozzle will seal on bucking lips better - but might not clear to chamber bb

BUT we can get the nozzle to shift forward a smidge more by sanding front of tappet plate

SHS's are 2.55mm and have sanded mine to about 2.05mm meaning nozzle should push 0.5mm further forward

All this bollocks means little on its own but slight variations and exact nozzles or slightly short nozzles

or come to that a bit of crap in front of tappet or hop not fully pushed very firmly back

 All of the above will contribute to a looser seal of nozzle to bucking

So we try to give a bit of help to ensure it seals as best as poissible

PLEASE - ignore the details on retraction to be honest at this moment in time

they were just examples to show the variations on retraction

retraction wasn't your problem - it was likely the forward return position effecting seals

We can sand or file the front of tappet to effectively push the nozzle forward a smidge

But there is a chance - slight chance the center of some tappet fins may hit the axle

So though the tappet got sanded down and it should push nozzle forward

it might not move forward if the fin is hitting the axle - jeeez

So sometimes a little material may need to be filed with a tiny needle file

(most of the tappet's retraction takes place up at the base of the fin - so no biggy)

I shortened the fin in case I decided to remove a tooth on release side

(probably won't tbh but just me going nutz while I was messing with SHS tappet)

So no need to copy everything I do and stuff - just a bit of overthinking or OCD I guess

V2's are a bit of a pain as I feel the total tappet movement is less in a V2 than a V3

A V2 gearbox usually has about 7.5mm to 8mm if you are lucky tappet retraction

(distance front of tappet travels from inside front of gearbox rest position)

A V3 often has more about 9.5mm so you can get a bigger window to play with

Meaning less finer tolerances of nozzle sealing & feeding/chambering a bb

(well unless you really did stuff badly or really got wrong nozzle in there)

To me a V2 has less room or tolerance for tappet nozzle window

So a bit more crap needs checking/modding if needed

Not all boxes are THIS bad - but there is deffo less margin of error imho

If a slightly short nozzle or bit of crap is in there or fin catches on shim/axle it won't seal 101%

If fin wears or too long nozzle used then feed issues may arise

Certain hops differ and the bucking lips or feed tube can sit a whisker forward/backwards

So you can see that one or two ever so slight variations can cause feed/seal issues

(especially with finer tolerances in tappet window or room for margins of error/wear)

Phew - well gone off on a bender I know....

Just check $hitloads is the answer - check everything andit will help reduce furtherissues

SHS Gears are lovely, not had Lonex gears but tbh they seem pretty decent

Most sets are fine unless they have been made pi$$ poorly

SHS's are quite chunky though, with thick chunky bushings there is little room to shim

The main issue in a gear set is how it runs - which should be fine but you can get the odd one

The Bevel gear is what matters, SHS and decent sets have 10 nice thick teeth on bevel

Plus they mesh nicely with SHS pinions and motors - this is important

Look at this crap thin teeth on the right - one bit of stress and all of them will fly off:

(NOT A SHS BEVEL  but a defective cheapo Big Dragon set - the sector's spindle was pi$$ed)

The stock bevel - only 4 latches has much more robust teeth to mesh with spur gear

Now I know these may or may not be tempered or treated BUT

At first glance I'd rather use the old stock 4 latch bevel anyday than chance the other bevel 

Gears are gears - it is what rolls best and what you feel is ok or will work best

Various people will prefer to use or stick certain brands they feel has worked fine for them

What matters most is how the stuff all fits together

I really don't think one size or one make/brand of parts suits all or never needs tweaking

Use what you feel will work best, examine & compare any replacement parts blah x 3

We are all still learning - screwing up and stuff like that

Each box is different but often builds are taking a little longer than previous ones

coz we are paying a little more attention to each detail than before

Yup, maybe getting better but doing stuff as best as possible rarely goes quickly 

hope some of this helps - though probably confused you and others way way more

 

[Katana]

Wow that actually makes a lot of sense and ties on to my next new problem FFS .....

My gun will shoot on a 7.4 perfectly but won't shoot correctly on an 11.1 and I'm guessing that this is because the tappet plate is still not being held back for long enough even with the sector delay chip installed? Strange how it would work fine before with 35rps+ but switching to slower 16:1 gears and a nicer motor and putting out 30ish rps now will change so much. 

Every bb is feeding so that would mean that it isn't to do with the nozzle retracting back far enough to load the next bb and as you said that I didn't have a retraction problem but it's that it is being released too early? It can't be an air seal problem as it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be a timing issue.

Does the tappet plate on lower rps builds only need to retract far enough for the air nozzle to clear the feed tube for the next bb and on higher rps builds, the tappet plate needs to come back further so that it is released later? Although, if it was being held back for too long, would that also be an issue as the feeding would be fine but it would miss its chance to seal against the bucking as air is being cycled through the cylinder head?.

Ignoring the fact that it worked fine before the gear and motor changes, it can't be the nozzle length or how far it is going inside of the hop up to meet the bucking as again, it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be timing.

You mentioned that an SHS tappet plate retracts back for a longer period of time and I have a spare so is this worth trying because the nozzle being delayed slightly more would make the release slightly later which is maybe what I need? So long as what you posted doesn't happen like the tappet plate rubbing on the sector gear and such. I'm really tired right now so I may have to read what you posted again in the morning because I feel like I'm typing in circles I may give the shs tappet a go in the morning pending your input.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Ouch - feel a migraine coming along........

Wow that actually makes a lot of sense and ties on to my next new problem FFS .....

My gun will shoot on a 7.4 perfectly but won't shoot correctly on an 11.1 and I'm guessing that this is because the tappet plate is still not being held back for long enough even with the sector delay chip installed? Strange how it would work fine before with 35rps+ but switching to slower 16:1 gears and a nicer motor and putting out 30ish rps now will change so much. 

Every bb is feeding so that would mean that it isn't to do with the nozzle retracting back far enough to load the next bb and as you said that I didn't have a retraction problem but it's that it is being released too early? It can't be an air seal problem as it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be a timing issue.

The tappet plate is being held back enough or it couldn't chamber a bb

If you have taken the teeth off the sector at beginning and not the end then basic tappet timing could not be altered

The fitting of a delay clip like this:

would of only delayed the tappet a smidge past its initial release point and released tappet

with about 4.5 teeth to go on piston retraction even if SS a couple of teeth coz the SS wouldn't of altered the tappet release

Add to this the newer spring and 30rps is not insane either

There is a very slim chance the delayer could be pulling the nozzle as last bits of air expel under compression

so the nozzle could just be getting pulled away or retracted for the next cycle as last bit of air is being expelled

But I doubt it tbh, think this timing shouldn't get very critical until 40 or more rps

Yes the delayer seems to start retraction a little earlier but well within tolerance I would of thought

BUT if push comes to shove you can remove the delayer to be sure....

Yes you can use the SHS Tappet but it will need modding - PITA

The sides at front are best done with a fine dremel cutting disc touching briefly at front to start to thin the tappet front

file the rest of it nicely about 1.25mm inwards and about 16.5mm back aprox to end up with a tapered SHS v2 tappet

Next reduce it from 2.5mm to nearly 2.0mm - file/sand the front of tappet plate

SERIOUSLY - you should do this for most instances using a v2 SHS tappet (probably v3 too)

If you look very very carefully at the locating ridge that the nozzle sits on.....

You will notice the ridge inside the U of the yoke/fork where tappet holds the nozzle

that ridge is slightly off center towards the back or cylinder head

(it might not show up clearly coz hard to focus very close up)

the groove is deffo offset so you should sand tappet front on SHS

So there is more material on the front of tappet plate yoke/fork

So file it down about 0.5mm sand on emery/sand paper in circular motion on worktop etc....

(clockwise then counterclockwise etc... to try and ensure is is sanded fairly evenly)

Get it down to a thickness of 2.05mm or 2.1mm then check if she needs the fin slightly modded on sector's axle

Then try the damn thing WITHOUT a delay clip !!!!

The SHS tappet should retract the nozzle a smidge more imho

and if you sand the tappet plate front as described it should seal better

The fin could be chopped slightly but perhaps try it as is for now

The center part of the fin  "might"  need slight modding to clear the axle

but the thing is these SHS or RA tappets do retract a smidge more I have found and are about £3 from Pete/ak2m4

So you can mess about with experimenting with stuff without costing an arm & leg and get hold of them easily

Lot of people like SHS tappets BUT they can sometimes retract a bit too far on some boxes

But I like to use them as my first choice if I feel the need to replace original one if I'm not content

Please check the operation etc.... in both halves of the gearbox - especially the other half

you may not see the actual fin/cam in operation coz they are facing away/downwards from you

but you should see clearly the front of tappet plate retraction results if you understand

It is difficult to put into words where or what I would do 

but I think you are kind of getting the idea of what I mean and how I go about modding the SHS for Cyma/Lonex use

Hopefully bit of dremel on SHS to convert to Lonex tappet then sand the front and you should see slightly better results

There is a slight little edge on tappet plate front - roughly aim to sand that off = half a mm

if SHS tappet looks a bit bent up or warped/crooked you can dump it in a cup of hot water

then 5 mins later you should be able to shape it straighter blah blah blah....

Need asprin or beer i think - my head is a bit fried too

 

[Katana]

I started shaving the front of the shs, the groove where the nozzle sits is now in the middle.

Went to put it into the gearbox and noticed that it just would not shut no matter what I did. I then realised that you have to take a massive chunk out of the bottom portion of each side of the tappet otherwise it won't properly sit in the groove. Using this as a last resort I tried something else...again. 

Put the lonex tappet in, spring on, sector delay chip OFF. And there we go, I went through a whole mag of 0.28's in semi and full auto on the 7.4 and the results were terrible but then I thought that I was using pts epm mags that are prone to have overfiling problems and whilst I didn't have the issues beforehand, the cycling speed of the gun has changed slightly so I released a quick spray of bb's onto the floor and tried again...cleared the mag perfectly. 

Next up the 11.1, reload about 2/3rd's of the mag, mag in and boom, semi-auto is looking good and finally the ring stinger of fully auto.....oh shieet it works. 

So how is it that I tried the lonex tappet and no sector delay chip and it didn't work and yet with the sector delay clip it worked on semi making things even weirder? THE ******* MAG

Are you kidding me?!?! :lol:

After all of this, the mag was the bastarding culprit. Bought one of those fancy winding wheel speedloaders and didn't realise how much I had been filling the mags. 

So now, hopefully the fps is about right and at least I know for sure that the gun is now working. I'll still ease off of full auto on an 11.1v even though I don't use it that often but when someone is cheating...  h34r:

Got a spare brand new SHS 14.5 tooth piston so if the piston I have craps out, I have a spare although I think I'll need to grind down the 3rd tooth a bit to get dat smooth flowing AOE. Comes pre-glued and lightened from ak2m4 which is pretty sweet. Saves me having to do it anyway.

Another thanks to you Mr Duck for helping me out with the gat. Much appreciated  ^_^

 

[Sitting Duck]

Tell me about the F*cking mags...

Had exact same issue with ASG Armalite one - feed issues

and stripped gun messing with stuff - mid caps feed better - right ???

WRONG -  2 bb's now and then were getting wedged tight side by side like pistol mags but they stuck just now n then

(or they got caught at the snakey curved bit in mid-cap)

Thing is I should of known this - always try other mags etc....

BUT when you remove mag couple of bb's drop out & it looks all pushing upwards so the mag appears full & feeding ok

plus it is a mid cap - mid caps are better right ???

WRONG - not iffy mid-cap

Tried a high cap - streams of white flew out of gun

Though after that the air turned a dark royal navy blue

So I feel your WTF !!!!!

Something wasn't quite right though - the bit where bb's were dropping way short wasn't a mag related issue

plus presume you was using exact same mags as was a few days prior so couldn't be mags ???

Ergh yeah maybe - rule #1 = don't rule nothing out !!!

No worries, you have a bit more understanding than before

The "fun" we have trying to fix these stupid piles of crap

All of this adds up and I know I'm still learning as I go too

Especially the bit about not trusting mags completely - be a long while before I make that mistake (hopefully)

Yup think we have all been there and steamed in thinking is has to be this or that

Think the new stronger tappet spring might have helped a slightly iffy seal

Ahh well live & learn as they say - live & learn