Why we chrono

[Rogerborg]

Air rifles in England tend to be tested by the police using super heavy magnum pellets thus creating the maximum possible joule figure.

As they should be, since the intent of the law is to deter the ownership of weapons that could be used for nefarious purposes, regardless of whether that's how they're currently being used.

Same applies to airsoft guns, although I doubt that the State is going to be that bothered about anything but the HP'est of HPA toys.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

As they should be, since the intent of the law is to deter the ownership of weapons that could be used for nefarious purposes, regardless of whether that's how they're currently being used.

Same applies to airsoft guns, although I doubt that the State is going to be that bothered about anything but the HP'est of HPA toys.

it is a worrying notion, the hpa you use at say 75psi with .3g's gets tested at 160psi with .48's and you get told it's not kosher, which of course it wouldn't be, but then that's not how it's actually being used.

of course i suppose if they're being that pernickety then you've already done something to attract their attention.

i think the problem is we have a distinct lack of case studies in airsoft, we don't know for sure exactly what's going to happen in these kinds of situations, if you interpret it strictly enough then literally anything bar aeg's wouldn't be allowed.

 

[Rogerborg]

gets tested at 160psi with .48's

Or with 0.86g steel ball bearings.  Again: "any missile".  The question is what it's capable of doing in the hands of someone who doesn't care whether they wreck the hop or barrel.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Or with 0.86g steel ball bearings.  Again: "any missile".  The question is what it's capable of doing in the hands of someone who doesn't care whether they wreck the hop or barrel.

and herein lies the problem, how far do we take it? if an aeg is capable of pulling an m200 spring does that count even if what's actually in there is an m95?

 

[Tommikka]

I really don’t understand joule creep

I understand what it means/is ...... (or what I think is meant by those who use it)

In Paintball we would look at airweapon legislation which gave us 12ft lbs for air rifles and 6ft lbs for air pistols.  Which immeadiately makes  paintball pistols into firearms.

There is also the fact that a paintball gun does not qualify as a rifle so every single one would be well over 6ft lbs and then a firearm.

12 ftlbs on a ‘standard’ .68” Paintball equates to 300+something FPS

But there is caselaw that set 300fps

(we have a few get our clauses under firearms legislation due to frangibility)

In practice in UK Paintball we set at 300fps for tournaments, 280fps for the woods and most games, 250fps for close up/night etc, and if the organiser remembers 250fps for co2 based guns (it will spike up, so chrono at 250 to allow for spiking)

With one gun I could just change barrel.  I knew that my preferred optimum barrel would shoot at approx 280fps and that my short 3” barrel was inefficient and lost 30fps

I could keep the normal barrel and chrono down and save air, but as I had enough air to shoot the balls I was carrying I had no need

We are therefore within the legal limit (as long as you chrono) and anyone but an idiot will chrono players, no matter how well you trust them 

Everyone trusts me ..... but I’ve turned up and fired over the chrono hot. That could be illegal, but as long as I’m finding that on the range then things are good rather than shooting people 

 (I had 390 out of a pistol on its first use)

We have non standard paintballs:

  .43” .50” which could have their velocity increased to remain legal in joules, but the norm is to keep within 280fps. 

First strike shaped projectiles caused concerns as its a different beast.  Half paintball at the front, fins at the back .... similar to an airgun pellet

But these have been subject to official testing and remain within the legal impact, frangibility etc 

They can be used at the normal FPS, so just chrono to 280fps.  But they perform differently:

1) they hit harder as they maintain their energy further in flight then drop fast.  So people think you are shooting hot

2) for a given amount of air coming down the barrel they fly faster with regard to muzzle velocity.  No problem if you just have first strike, but if you mix and match standard and first strike then you must be chronoed with FS, and will shoot standard at about 10fps less

3) many other things but not relevant here

Joules are not ‘creeping’ in airsoft.  You shoot two different BBs with different mass from the same gun with no adjustment then the joules will be different 

At a given velocity the heavier BB will have more joules

Chrono with x BB at y velocity will give you a ‘known’ level of joules

Then change BB, change barrel, change settings and you’re doing something different 

Personnaly if joule creep meant that using co2 can spike then I would be happy with the term, as its ‘shoot something different and have different joules’ then in my opinion it doesn’t exist.  

The chrono process is wrong - whether it is or isn’t a problem is a different matter, if it means you are exceeding a given amount of energy (intentionally or not) then its a problem, if it means Fred is shooting further than Bob then that’s just specifics

 

[Albiscuit]

Again, this is where I see AP(Airsoft Plantation) as a step ahead. 

They operate a trust system. It’s your responsibility to get your gun chronoed. No tags, no Marshall to check.

But what they do do is have a marshal with a chrono out every single game spot checking people, if your caught .01J over(yea they measure In joules), or can’t name the weight BB your using, your off to the safe zone. Then your not allowed back in game until the Marshall comes back and chronos your gun on a bb weight they know, if it’s safe(this is usually a different gun) they will allow you 1 more chance, if it’s not, good luck getting back into a game.

I was caught once with a dodgy mag(literally 1 mag same bbs was producing , I think, a 20fps difference on .25s(was a brand new recoil mag)- the thread with the facts is on this forum somewhere. I proved this to them, they thought it was strange too, and let me straight back out, as long as I kept that mag in the safe zone. 

I feel safer at this site than others because I know they are vigilant.

Im not 100% sold on the its an honour based game so we trust you all to chrono yourselves and be honest angle they use, similar to EAG.

I much prefer being chronoed by a marshal, having a visual sticker/tag on my gun and everyone else's with spot checks too. 

Yes I get the theory, its a game of trust so we trust you to use correct FPS weapons, but what about those as mentioned here. Didnt realise their pistol was shooting at 430+ or had changed something and all of a sudden had a 80 fps spike in their gun, or those that just dont know! Not even talking about those that WILL cheat. 

I have played at AP probably 5 times now and have never been spot checked. Plus with chronos that are just set up and left I personally have no idea how to set them up, I would assume its easy, but what if the twat before me was changing settings, pressing buttons etc and had knocked everyone elses readings out?

The extra time it takes to be vigilant and for a site to know 100% guns have been checked and to keep on it during the day is a safety aspect that is worth the time in my opinion.

That being said the long ass line if you didnt get chronoed early at the mall was annoying   but you got talking to others which was ok i guess!

 

[Tackle]

lol, cracking on for 20 years of playing & I remember some cheats getting caught out at my very first game, nothings changed, cheaters be a cheatin, irrespective of the technology then or now, so for some sites to leave it to "trust" is at the very least naïve, definitely lazy, & might even be considered criminal if someone gets seriously injured & its pulled through the courts, the argument being that 95% (?) of sites use an enforced chrono system at the start, & often throughout the day, that may set a legal precedent/benchmark that the remaining 5% (?) can be judged by, & therefore criminally negligent.

wonder what a sites insurers would make of it if the shit were to hit the fan, I think we know the answer ?

 

[Nick G]

I 

Joules are not ‘creeping’ in airsoft.  You shoot two different BBs with different mass from the same gun with no adjustment then the joules will be different 

At a given velocity the heavier BB will have more joules

Chrono with x BB at y velocity will give you a ‘known’ level of joules

Then change BB, change barrel, change settings and you’re doing something different 

Personnaly if joule creep meant that using co2 can spike then I would be happy with the term, as its ‘shoot something different and have different joules’ then in my opinion it doesn’t exist.  

The chrono process is wrong - whether it is or isn’t a problem is a different matter, if it means you are exceeding a given amount of energy (intentionally or not) then its a problem, if it means Fred is shooting further than Bob then that’s just specifics

I think you are missing the point slightly, yes a heavier BB at the same velocity will have more Joules than a light one. However in reality , velocity is different. My sniper will fire a .20 at pretty much bang on 500 fps, the .36's that I use in it obviously have a lower velocity because everything in the gun is the same no stronger springs etc. BUT the .36's don't fly that much slower so the energy that they carry starts to 'creep' up , on .2's my 500 fps springer is fireing at 2.3 Joules however on .36 it chronos at 2.4 joules that's Joule creep, anything heavier and I am over the site limit of 2.5 Joules

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Would it be simplistic of me to say that HPA is far easier to adjust?

 

[Tackle]

altering fps isn't just the domain of hpa users, some aeg users have been at it for years, long before hpa was a thing.

 

[Albiscuit]

altering fps isn't just the domain of hpa users, some aeg users have been at it for years, long before hpa was a thing.

As you said cheaters will cheat.

You can change the FPS of most guns easily after chrono, quick change springs, swapping out bits, barrel extensions, even changing the gas you use to name a few.

I suppose HPA is the easiest to ensure everything is running right and everyone can be on the same playing field as you can easily set and lock the FPS. And I believe the locks can be adjusted and unless the site insists everyone use their HPA locked guns then its all a pointless rhetoric anyway!

 

[Rogerborg]

and herein lies the problem, how far do we take it? if an aeg is capable of pulling an m200 spring does that count even if what's actually in there is an m95?

The only way to find out is for Dibble to seize it and alter it.  I can't see the CPS touching that with a bargepole.

"Any missile" is explicitly in the legislation.

All that said, I'm not hugely fussed about AEGs putting out or so 1.5J - "cheaters be a cheatin" indeed.

It's up at the top end where it starts to get dicey in terms of dense high energy BBs versus ropey eyepro.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Would it be simplistic of me to say that HPA is far easier to adjust?

yes and no, compared to what gun?

a scorpion evo versus a balystik reg for example you can change springs on the scorpion with less time and without tools.

however for the most part, especially when talking about aeg's then yes hpa is far easier to adjust as you can do it without removing the gearbox.

 

[ProPain87]

The way I see it, is that you should have to chrono your gun in joules on how your planning on playing, ie on the weight bb, gas, psi your using and the hop set to “roughly” where it needs to be. Any major changes to your gun during the day and it should be re chrono’d. Anyone found to be cheating the system should be banned.

sites should be responsible for making sure everyone’s gun is site legal and it’s your personal responsibility to ensure your gun is legal by the law. Obviously all this can be hard to police and there has to be a little trust somewhere. Random chrono checks throughout the day would deter some but others could blatantly lie about bb weights etc.

Maybe a wall of shame would deter people from cheating ? names and photos of all the people banned from that site and the reason 

as for the police chronoing our guns, I’m sure they have better things to do really and Airsoft would be outright banned before this would be a regular occurrence 

 

[Tommikka]

I think you are missing the point slightly, yes a heavier BB at the same velocity will have more Joules than a light one. However in reality , velocity is different. My sniper will fire a .20 at pretty much bang on 500 fps, the .36's that I use in it obviously have a lower velocity because everything in the gun is the same no stronger springs etc. BUT the .36's don't fly that much slower so the energy that they carry starts to 'creep' up , on .2's my 500 fps springer is fireing at 2.3 Joules however on .36 it chronos at 2.4 joules that's Joule creep, anything heavier and I am over the site limit of 2.5 Joules

I still don’t think I’m missing the point 

If I throw a box of feathers and a box of lead differing results are still based on mass and velocity - not joule creep

The gun produces a blast of air behind a BB

That air propels the BB

The efficiency of the power source, air pressure/air volume up against the BBs resistance, and barrel match all affect the balls journey through the barrel 

It will either be accelerating all the way or reaching a peak (either terminal velocity or the power runs out)

A heavier ball is not guaranteed to have a lower velocity on exit as it may take more air pressure to build up before it moves or the peak velocity may occur at different points in the barrel

But it probably will have a lower velocity as per your example

Its the same physics of mass & velocity

Joules are not ‘creeping’.  

 

[Nick G]

No, the power output should remain fixed regardless of weight of BB and in a perfect world it would. However once you start getting into sniper weights you do see measured power output 'creeping' up. It may be that heavier BB's just make better use of the set up, spring power, barrel to bolt volume ratio, barrel length in GBB etc  . Joule creep is a convenient term to describe something that most airsofters don't understand. Lets face it we have all had the ' I'm going to use heavier BB's to bring the fps down' discussion with someone who's gun is shooting hot. An interesting experiment with a sniper is to fire a selection of weights and measure the output, you tend to see the joules peak then drop off significantly which demonstrates what weight gets the most from the particular set up.

 

[gasman]

Ahh the joy's of physics. I just say keep it simple, keep it uniform and constant, test all at every game and cheating stops and safety improves. Test all on .2s for FPS and if you want the ultimate test all sniper rifles on joules. My greatest joy is getting close to snipers inside of minimum engagement and shooting the shit out of them LOL. We have the FPS limits just firmly apply those limits stopping any gun from use that goes over, end of.

 

[Rogerborg]

So I threw a 250mm 6.02mm barrel with a Maple Leaf rubber into the MP5K and it went from 315 to 356 fps.

Oops.

This is why we chrono.

 

[Musica]

So I threw a 250mm 6.02mm barrel with a Maple Leaf rubber into the MP5K and it went from 315 to 356 fps.

Oops.

This is why we chrono.

that's why I didn't see you with it!

I seen 4 guys get told they were too hot while I was in line. Also did you see the remark about the owners gun bein hot so he was banned from playing?

 

[Rogerborg]

Very sadface, much back-in-bagness.  The Maple Leaf + standard nub wasn't putting any hop on at all, so at lunch I tried throwing in the nub from my M4 which looks slightly bigger, but still no luck.  G36 backup-backup gun to the rescue.  There's a bit of eraser rubber in there now which is is producing a visible bulge (fnar) so I'll see how that works out next weekend.

I didn't see those chrono fails, but it's heartening to hear that the site owner got his own gun chronoed.  As it should be, but it's nice to know that it's being done.