Whats the best way to stop your goggles from Fogging?

[Suzuki Yamamoto]

Buy a pair of these from Proairsoftsupplies as they don't fog, apparently. Can't go wrong for £9.99 either.

 

[Ian_Gere]

^^They are not appropriate eyepro for airsoft. You will see people wearing all sorts of stuff, some of it that could withstand buckshot - that doesn't make it appropriate for airsoft. The only eyepro you should consider are types which seal against your face, so that no matter what angle a ricochet can come from, it cannot get between the frame and your face, because once a BB is inside your eyepro, even if it is not initially heading towards your eye, it could bounce off the interior. It has happened recently at Skirmish Airsoft Mansfield.

Compare that risk with the risk that a fragment of BB could make it through mesh to hit your eye with sufficient energy to harm it -

bear in mind that if a 0.2g BB has 1 Joule of energy and has Volume

or 1.333 x 3.142 x (2.975mm)³ = 110.3mm³

then so long as the speed remains constant, the energy retained by a fragment is the same fraction as its volume compared to the whole BB, thus half the BB has 0.5J, a quarter 0.25J and so on...

Most mesh has holes around 1.5-2mm, but Hero Sharks (strangely enough, in this topsy turvy world of risk assessment done by emotion rather than logic, considered some of the safest mesh goggles) have holes 2.97mm across - but of course you can't end up with a BB fragment shaped like a sphere of 2.97mm diameter / approx 1/2 a BB in volume...

...actually this is where it gets much more complex, so maybe I'll start a new thread at some point to get to the bottom of it, but basically you need to imagine the BB 1st in the horizontal plane, then the vertical - if no part can be longer than 2.97mm, then discounting the infinitesimally unlikely possibility that fragments could be shattered off the outside all over, leaving a central chunk of approx 2.97mm diameter, then the biggest piece will have part of the original BB surface will be an equilateral triangle -ish shape, from above and also from the side, with each side of length 2.97mm where one side of the triangle is the shortest line between 2 points on the arc of the BB circumference, like this:

...which works out roughly at 18 tetrahedrons:

...or 1/18th of the Volume and Energy = 0.056J​

(If you're wondering about the volume, you may be interested to know that you're not the only one feeling slightly...​

...challenged, shall we say?​

The centre of a tetrahedron is called the Mong[e] Point! :lol:​

The curved face which would be present on a BB fragment is missing anyway and that would be proper calculus so fuck it, it's about 6.11mm³.)​

​

But as I said above, that is to assume that the pieces continue to travel at the same speed as the whole, but of course they don't. When the BB hits whatever it shatters against, some energy is transferred to the object and some, although conserved as heat and sound, is lost from momentum (Mass x Velocity), so actually the amount of energy left able to hit your eye is even less than the Volume proportion, and this remember is the largest piece that could theoretically fit through the biggest holed mesh in airsoft: no wonder then that the one time I had a fragment of BB hit me in the eye through my Hero Shark Daggernose, it felt just like a bit of sand blown into my eye from a beach - irritating, but not damaging (because I didn't rub it).

But if you can't be doing with 100% fog proof mesh, Revision Bullet Ant goggles are appropriately safe and, once you remove the foam dust filter, perform well at resisting fogging (but you will need anti-fog wipes as well).

 

[NickM]

Well Ian someone certainly had their weetabix this morning.

As for the glasses simply read the article that turned up in Airsoft Action this month (MAY 2014 issue) page 71, "READ AND TAKE NOTE" if you haven't seen it or can't then the main thrust of the article describes a player from the Shadow Stalkers who was shot with an AEG from 15 to 20ft away, a round hit the rim of his mask and ricocheted up under his glasses hitting the underside of his eye and then eyebrow, his eyebrow was bruised by the impact. The impact to the eye caused a bleed into his vitreous humour (liquid filling they eye) and damage to his retina, this led to being completely blind in that eye almost instantly. With proper medical care (luckily his nearest hospital had a specialist eye casualty unit, he is regaining sight but it has taken over a year and he cannot do any physical activity at the moment because he may detach the retina. He will require yearly eye tests as there is now an increased risk of eye damage.

Moral for me, I will probably invest in some better eye pro, I have a set of ESS V12 goggles but they fog badly on me, my main set are cheap goggles from Hong Kong and realistically I'm now not convinced they are up to the job.

 

[BrightCandle]

My very first Airsoft game I was renting a full face mesh mask. At some point in the second game of the night a small broken particle of a BB got lodge right in front my one of my eyes. I noticed once I got back to the safe zone and what was concerning is that it was small enough to be pushed right through. I got lucky because it must have hit at an angle that stopped it heading towards my eye, but right there within 45 minutes of my first airsoft game I had seen all the evidence I needed that a mesh mask is a bit of a risky proposition.

I combined that knowledge with an eye consultant telling me about exploding eyes from BB impacts and well I have since spent a small fortune on high quality googles. They are going to fog and that is a given problem, but not seeing temporarily in the middle of a game is better than never seeing again.

 

[cropzy]

I can vouch for cat crap as I tried it today and it worked a treat.

 

[Esoterick]

My very first Airsoft game I was renting a full face mesh mask. At some point in the second game of the night a small broken particle of a BB got lodge right in front my one of my eyes. I noticed once I got back to the safe zone and what was concerning is that it was small enough to be pushed right through. I got lucky because it must have hit at an angle that stopped it heading towards my eye, but right there within 45 minutes of my first airsoft game I had seen all the evidence I needed that a mesh mask is a bit of a risky proposition.

I combined that knowledge with an eye consultant telling me about exploding eyes from BB impacts and well I have since spent a small fortune on high quality googles. They are going to fog and that is a given problem, but not seeing temporarily in the middle of a game is better than never seeing again.

Whilst I've never seen any reports of lasting eye damage from wearing mesh, it is arguably still a risk. More concerning is the very really prospect of getting a ricochet from shooting glasses hit your eye, or at best the surrounding area. After the blog post from the chap at Shadow Stalkers I saw a few marshals posting things along the lines of "oh yeah i've seen that happen a couple of times" which is pretty concerning to say the least. It could go into a whole debate about sites enforcing specific eyepro, but more to the point: it isn't as uncommon as you would think.

Personally I'd wear sealed glasses/goggles over mesh which i'd wear over shooting glasses. However if I ended up having real problems with fogging to the point it became dangerous, well then I'd definitely use mesh. Basically what Ian says is a good point, although when I read physics based discussions I feel like this:

 

[Ian_Gere]

My very first Airsoft game I was renting a full face mesh mask. At some point in the second game of the night a small broken particle of a BB got lodge right in front my one of my eyes. I noticed once I got back to the safe zone and what was concerning is that it was small enough to be pushed right through. I got lucky because it must have hit at an angle that stopped it heading towards my eye, but right there within 45 minutes of my first airsoft game I had seen all the evidence I needed that a mesh mask is a bit of a risky proposition.

I combined that knowledge with an eye consultant telling me about exploding eyes from BB impacts and well I have since spent a small fortune on high quality googles. They are going to fog and that is a given problem, but not seeing temporarily in the middle of a game is better than never seeing again.

As I said, emotion vs logic. If you feel that the risk of tripping over something because you can't see properly and being injured by falling onto something sharp is less important than the risk that 1/18th of a BB could hit your eye and somehow do so with sufficient force to hurt you (and think about how much energy the whole BB would have to have if 1/18th of it can hurt you), then that is your choice to make. My main point here is that shooting glasses and mountain biking eyepro are not suitable for airsoft.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Basically what Ian says is a good point, although when I read physics based discussions I feel like this:

I know what you mean, but if you think about it in more familiar terms, it's easier to understand. If 1 apple fell on your head Newton-stylee, you would bloody know about it; half an apple would impact less; a quarter even less, and 1/18th would be barely noticeable, if you were skirmishing or doing something else which required a bit of concentration.

 

[Richie Boyle]

i had to drop out of a game today due to fogging. i literally couldnt see a team mate 5 feet away from me so i borrowed a set of mesh goggles to try on the next game. i wasnt comfortable with them for reasons already stated in this thread plus visibility is seriously reduced compared to the wide angle revision lens

has anyone considered trying something like rain x? it is designed to prevent water sticking to a glass surface so presumably it would work on the materials used to make goggles

 

[BrightCandle]

The problem with fogging is the physics of the whole situation. You have a hot surface (your face) heating an area of air that is constrained due to the googles and moisture from your sweat producing a hot humid area separated by glass/plastic from a cooler less humid area. That will eventually produce condensation to appear no matter what you do. You can delay it with a spray/coating that dissuades the condensation from appearing, but that will only last so long before its overwhelmed. A variety of ways to do that including washing up liquid buffed into the lens or a variety of sold produces that basically all do the same thing.

About the only way to stop it is to exchange that hot humid air with the cooler air from outside the googles. ESS have some with an active fan for example and that is meant to be very effective. The problem of course is then you have a battery pack powering a fan attached to your head band and the fan isn't exactly quiet so there wont be any sneaking up using it. The Bolle lopro regulators are googles which have a strip that can be pushed exposing a number of small holes well above the eye line that aren't big enough for a BB (although fragments are certainly going to fit through them) and that is meant to be relatively effective at cooling the internal area as well.

The delta force guys still have this issue with their googles so there isn't a perfect solution yet. You have to trade some amount of safety to remove fogging in its entirety(or noise) and even then they still might fog. Mesh darkens the view and allows fragments through but it doesn't fog. Right now your only options are to pick which side of that safety/vision trade off you want.

 

[Lozart]

I use plastic lensed glasses/goggles because I struggle using mesh in the dark corridors of the Malls. Tried it, hated it, end of.

This weekend I used a pair of the new Bolle Cobra full seal safety glasses with their new Platinum anto fog coating and I must say it worked exceptionally well. As previously mentioned I sweat like Jimmy Saville in a childrens ward so fogging IS an issue. Normal people would fine them utterly fog free.

Having read Ian's very techy but informative post I thought to myself "I'll go check the numbers on the Bolle stuff, see if I can prove a point". So let's do the math(s):

Let's say you have a gun set right on the site limit for the Mall. 340FPS on a 0.2g BB. This gives you an energy of 1.07 joules

Bolle safety glasses have a maximum impact rating of "F" according to the EN standard of marking which is tested with a 0.86g steel ball at 45m/s. 45m/s is 147.64FPS which then gives you an energy of 0.86 joules.

So as you can see the glasses are insufficiently rated for even a fairly conservative site limit. 0.2 of a joule may not seem like much but if you were unlucky enough to be shot point blank in the face (which DOES happen in CQB) then your eye protection may fail.

Bolle GOGGLES on the other hand are rated "B" which is tested with a 0.86g steel ball at 120m/s (393.7 FPS) with an energy of 6.16 joules.

The moral of this particular tale then is wear goggles, not glasses (from Bolle at least) and make sure you WEAR THEM PROPERLY. You can have the best eye pro in the world but if your face protection doesn't let them fit properly you may as well not bother.

 

[Lozart]

ESS say their entire range is tested to the ANSI Z87.1-2010 standard. For glasses the high velocity impact test is very similar to the EN test in that it is a 6.35mm steel ball but tested at 150FPS. Assuming a marginally higher weight for the slightly larger ball (0.9g typical weight for a steel ball of this size) this still only achieves 0.94 joules.

Again, goggles have a higher rating (1/4" steel ball at 250FPS) at 2.6 joules but not as high as the EN rated Bolle Goggles.

As an aside the new standard for marking according to ANSI is that Z87 is NON impact rated Z87+ IS impact rated.

So it's worth checking the markings on everything!

 

[Lozart]

Had a dig through the details on Revision Sawflys as there seems to be quite a few ex-issue ones kicking about. Revision state that the Sawfly exceeds the ANSI and EN impact standard by a factor of 3 which gives at least 2.58 joules so it would seem that if you really want glasses not goggles then Sawflys are the way to go...

 

[BrightCandle]

This is about the best guide I have seen to the various standards for eye wear: http://www.airsoftnews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/EN-Safety-Standards-and-Protective-Eyewear.pdf

As far as I know all of the Bolle tactical glasses are V50 STANAG 2920 around 180m/s. For airsoft purposes that is around 12 joules, but it has a 50% chance of penetration. As far as I know that is about as safe as you can get with googles/glasses. Bolle's googles do stop a much higher speed BB under the same standard but I don't think its right to say the tactical glasses aren't good enough for airsoft games, they definitely are and one of the gold standards.

 

[Lozart]

This is about the best guide I have seen to the various standards for eye wear: http://www.airsoftnews.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/EN-Safety-Standards-and-Protective-Eyewear.pdf

As far as I know all of the Bolle tactical glasses are V50 STANAG 2920 around 180m/s. For airsoft purposes that is around 12 joules, but it has a 50% chance of penetration. As far as I know that is about as safe as you can get with googles/glasses. Bolle's googles do stop a much higher speed BB under the same standard but I don't think its right to say the tactical glasses aren't good enough for airsoft games, they definitely are and one of the gold standards.

I was only looking at the Bolle safety range to be fair. Having looked again you are right, specifically the Tactical range are tested to STANAG 4296.

 

[BrightCandle]

I was only looking at the Bolle safety range to be fair. Having looked again you are right, specifically the Tactical range are tested to STANAG 4296.

Its a mix between 180 m/s STANAG 2920 ranging up to about 250 m/s STANAG 2920 and a few models that also do STANAG 4296. Having looked through the entire tactical range I think all of them are more than suitable for airsoft. However I would still prefer complete seal over glasses for the safety factor. They also do prescription carriers for a lot of their models as well so you can even get glasses fitted for them (which is why I initially bought them).

 

[cropzy]

Just purchased some cat crap as I used it yesterday and it had good results.

When it arrives and I use it more intensively I will let you guys know what it is like.

 

[Lozart]

Its a mix between 180 m/s STANAG 2920 ranging up to about 250 m/s STANAG 2920 and a few models that also do STANAG 4296. Having looked through the entire tactical range I think all of them are more than suitable for airsoft. However I would still prefer complete seal over glasses for the safety factor. They also do prescription carriers for a lot of their models as well so you can even get glasses fitted for them (which is why I initially bought them).

STANAG 4296 incorporates 2920. 2920 is the ballistic impact testing standard, 4296 is the overall standard for military eye wear and as such has a wider scope (such as fit and finish etc). So if it says STANAG 4296 you can rest assured it is tested to the same standard as STANAG 2920.

 

[remus]

ive been thinking, what if the lense was heated itself so that air didnt condense on it? something similar to the defog on rear car windows. course the heated thing infront of your eyes might be uncomfortable but at the same time, chances of this being workable?

 

[NickM]

Have had a little thinking about the glasses business and bbs getting under them, twice in 3 years I've ended up with BB's rolling around in my safety glasses when I used them. I'm thinking wire mesh goggles is my next move. Just need to find a reputable source.