armysurplusandtoys
Members
- Jan 12, 2013
- 299
- 26
the problem seems to be that these new schemes will only work if everyone gets behind it otherwise players will be forced to choose
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UKARA Alternative
- Thread starter Kaza66
- Start date
Someone may have already put thiz but no way am I reading through all these threds to che k.....
The BAC have had some good reviews lately, I was talming to a guy who recieved his card today and said its much more simple as you can do everything yourself and I think its got a code on it so I guess you can use it like a oyster card and just scan as you go? Im not to sure how it works tbh.
This luther seems ok but I havent seen enough info on it to make a judgement yet
The BAC have had some good reviews lately, I was talming to a guy who recieved his card today and said its much more simple as you can do everything yourself and I think its got a code on it so I guess you can use it like a oyster card and just scan as you go? Im not to sure how it works tbh.
This luther seems ok but I havent seen enough info on it to make a judgement yet
M_P
Supporters
- Feb 27, 2011
- 7,272
- 1,404
That's because BAC have pretty much copied Luther's ideas and got the project up and running sooner
Pretty much yeah, though they still didn't think it through properly before they launched. ID cards are pretty expensive especially with an individual barcode and photo. Having to print a new one very year when you already have an unique identifier printed (The Barcode) is just daft but obviously they didn't know that because we didn't tell them not to! Also Special Airsoft Supplies :/
GiantKiwi
Members
- Dec 7, 2012
- 1,130
- 671
Can't see the point really. There is a minor convenience to being able to obtain and/or maintain your membership at multiple sites but how hard is it really to go to your own (usually local) site once a year or even to transfer? Glad the silly wristbands seem to have been dropped - bit childish for me.
As for retailers having to pay £300 for UKARA - hardly a problem. Some people seem to think that the downside to this is that it keeps smaller retailers out but I think one of the upsides to this is it keeps small retailers out. Implement a 'free' or 'cheap' system for the smaller retailers (not actually free or cheap at all: you just want me to cover some of the retailers overheads rather than their customers doing it via a slightly higher price) and you will, of course, increase the number of shops able to sell RIFs. Would this lead to more second hand shops, indoor markets, etc selling to people with or without a defense? I don't know but I suspect the answer is "yes".
Finally, why would I want to pay even a nominal fee to some self appointed quango when I am already able to take advantage of a free system that does everything I need?
As for retailers having to pay £300 for UKARA - hardly a problem. Some people seem to think that the downside to this is that it keeps smaller retailers out but I think one of the upsides to this is it keeps small retailers out. Implement a 'free' or 'cheap' system for the smaller retailers (not actually free or cheap at all: you just want me to cover some of the retailers overheads rather than their customers doing it via a slightly higher price) and you will, of course, increase the number of shops able to sell RIFs. Would this lead to more second hand shops, indoor markets, etc selling to people with or without a defense? I don't know but I suspect the answer is "yes".
Finally, why would I want to pay even a nominal fee to some self appointed quango when I am already able to take advantage of a free system that does everything I need?
I must admit one thing i've been thinking about is when people have discussed that the retailers controlling the system proving/providing our defense being a bad thing, considering it's the retailers potentially breaking the law and having the risk i personally think it's fair that they have the control.
Airsoft-Ed
Retired Moderator
- Nov 7, 2010
- 4,164
- 941
Why?
The DVLA don't sell cars...
Whoever issues firearms certificates don't sell guns...
The association that provide pilot licenses don't sell planes...
Having the people in charge of controlling the market also providing goods to that market is the most ass-backwards system there has ever been for anything, they have a near total monopoly on pretty much everything airsoft in the UK. The other shops even have to pay them, it's ludicrous.
If there were more shops, there'd be a lot more variation in price, places would have to start offering longer warranties with better cover, and sticking to them in order to justify a higher price, you'd actually start to get your money's worth from your purchases and there'd be a lot more competition and places to buy from, there'd be less reason to look abroad for affordable prices.
Plus, the £5 you give Luther/BASA to get your membership gets put straight back into the community - monthly raffles, free game days, maybe a free weekender or even a free site.
People moaning that it's not free are just refusing to take the benefits into account for the sake of a measly fiver; you could pay for it with the loose coppers you collect through the year. £5 really isn't a lot and the benefits could see you getting more than £5 worth of goodies in return, if you win a Systema or something you've made like £1000 of profit. You could even sell it and become a member forever, the profit you made from your free gift have made it possible for you to pay £5 a year for 200 years.
Maybe once it's really off the ground there could be a one off payment of something like £30 making you a member for life? Who knows, we have to let it bloom first, it's still in the budding stage.
The DVLA don't sell cars...
Whoever issues firearms certificates don't sell guns...
The association that provide pilot licenses don't sell planes...
Having the people in charge of controlling the market also providing goods to that market is the most ass-backwards system there has ever been for anything, they have a near total monopoly on pretty much everything airsoft in the UK. The other shops even have to pay them, it's ludicrous.
If there were more shops, there'd be a lot more variation in price, places would have to start offering longer warranties with better cover, and sticking to them in order to justify a higher price, you'd actually start to get your money's worth from your purchases and there'd be a lot more competition and places to buy from, there'd be less reason to look abroad for affordable prices.
Plus, the £5 you give Luther/BASA to get your membership gets put straight back into the community - monthly raffles, free game days, maybe a free weekender or even a free site.
People moaning that it's not free are just refusing to take the benefits into account for the sake of a measly fiver; you could pay for it with the loose coppers you collect through the year. £5 really isn't a lot and the benefits could see you getting more than £5 worth of goodies in return, if you win a Systema or something you've made like £1000 of profit. You could even sell it and become a member forever, the profit you made from your free gift have made it possible for you to pay £5 a year for 200 years.
Maybe once it's really off the ground there could be a one off payment of something like £30 making you a member for life? Who knows, we have to let it bloom first, it's still in the budding stage.
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Muppetdaze
Members
- Mar 16, 2014
- 12
- 1
So if you are a member of a re-enactment group and carry personally third party liability insurance through membership of your re-enactment group you already have Defence for purchasing building, importing an RIF
So all the Airborne loadouts should just form a club, only need three people
Then get your insurance sorted
Lo and Behold you're legal.
So all the Airborne loadouts should just form a club, only need three people
Then get your insurance sorted
Lo and Behold you're legal.
Ian_Gere
Retired Moderator
- Apr 1, 2012
- 6,417
- 2,050
You can lead a horse to water but, as Stan Laurel wisely pointed out, a pencil must be lead.
I know I'm probably wasting finger effort, but just in case anybody is wavering and wants to understand why de facto monopolies are actually even worse than legally sanctioned ones, I suggest you read "The Future of Ideas" by Laurence Lessig. If you're still wavering or happy with the status quo after that, perhaps you can explain to us why JB Sports et al. should be able to prevent market traders sellent cricket bats. Not the same? I promise you, you can do a lot more damage with a cricket bat than you can with the average AEG and if you think that being threatened with what you think is a real gun is worse than being threatened with a bat, you just don't have much imagination.
Mr_Awol, you don't want small retailers? Have you seen the price of AEG's in the USA or Japan? Never mind. How about people who run an airsoft site. A UKARA registered, insured site with a regular weekly attendance of 50 or more players. They must be responsible enough to only sell to people concerning whom the Defence applies, right? Nobody in their right mind could possibly believe that anyone whom UKARA have deemed ok to rent guns to people could not be ok to also sell them, right?
Perhaps you've guessed where I'm going with this...? That's right. UKARA will not register Skirmish Mansfield as a retailer because they do not have retail premises! Do you get it? It's got fuck all to do with responsibility. It's business, pure and simple.
The thing is, even if every Tom, Dick, and Harriet was selling AEG's, it wouldn't make any difference to crime. Check out the ONS figures - the number of offences involving RIF's is so miniscule that nobody even bothers to break them down into type and that is the same now as before the legislation. I imagine it's got something to do with how criminals were not born yesterday: if you're going to threaten somebody with a gun in the UK, it had best be able to fire at least 1 real bullet, because many people wouldn't believe you had the bottle to pull the trigger...
I know I'm probably wasting finger effort, but just in case anybody is wavering and wants to understand why de facto monopolies are actually even worse than legally sanctioned ones, I suggest you read "The Future of Ideas" by Laurence Lessig. If you're still wavering or happy with the status quo after that, perhaps you can explain to us why JB Sports et al. should be able to prevent market traders sellent cricket bats. Not the same? I promise you, you can do a lot more damage with a cricket bat than you can with the average AEG and if you think that being threatened with what you think is a real gun is worse than being threatened with a bat, you just don't have much imagination.
Mr_Awol, you don't want small retailers? Have you seen the price of AEG's in the USA or Japan? Never mind. How about people who run an airsoft site. A UKARA registered, insured site with a regular weekly attendance of 50 or more players. They must be responsible enough to only sell to people concerning whom the Defence applies, right? Nobody in their right mind could possibly believe that anyone whom UKARA have deemed ok to rent guns to people could not be ok to also sell them, right?
Perhaps you've guessed where I'm going with this...? That's right. UKARA will not register Skirmish Mansfield as a retailer because they do not have retail premises! Do you get it? It's got fuck all to do with responsibility. It's business, pure and simple.
The thing is, even if every Tom, Dick, and Harriet was selling AEG's, it wouldn't make any difference to crime. Check out the ONS figures - the number of offences involving RIF's is so miniscule that nobody even bothers to break them down into type and that is the same now as before the legislation. I imagine it's got something to do with how criminals were not born yesterday: if you're going to threaten somebody with a gun in the UK, it had best be able to fire at least 1 real bullet, because many people wouldn't believe you had the bottle to pull the trigger...
Russe11
Members
- Oct 30, 2013
- 1,424
- 893
I personally have no issue with UKARA. It's run buy the retailers as it's the retailers who need the ability to sell stuff and if they can't prove that the people they sell to have a defence then they can't sell. However when you read about what both BAC and Luther/BASA have come up with, it is clearly a better thought out system. Especially the Luther system. I might not think that the individual airsofter should fund it but in the scheme of things its £5. It may be that at some point once the infrastructure is in place and overheads come down the costs may be met by selling advertising on the back of the card which has the barcode on it. Won't it be nice to have a nice card with all the bright orange and black writing on the back 
I might just build on my airbourne loadout and join http://www.afra.org.uk/
I might just build on my airbourne loadout and join http://www.afra.org.uk/
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