UKARA Alternative

[fivezerothree]

^ I only ask because my understanding is that there was a law made (VCRA 2006) that effectively made selling RIFs completely illegal. The air soft community, led by the retailers whose businesses were at stake, then argued that selling RIFs should have some form of defence against prosecution. This was then granted in the Commencement to the Act number 3, which says:

"The regulations provide for two new defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to “permitted activities” and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities."

Part of the reason for this being granted was that the leading retailers formed as the UKARA and told the Home Office that they make most of the sales and that they would be coming up with a way to ensure they had their defence covered. This is just written into the Commencement as:

"For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

- new players must play at least three times in a period of not less than two months the two months before being offered membership

- membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers

- a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser’s details

- a member’s entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months."

That, to my knowledge, is the only place that mentions he 3 games/2 months rule, and it's just a description of what UKARA proposed they would do (then proceeded not to fully do), not a legal requirement.

Cool. I've always said 'recommendation' and I agree with it too, as do most others – lets not derail here!

 

[Longshot]

Cool. I've always said 'recommendation' and I agree with it too, as do most others – lets not derail here!

But Luther are looking to take that 'recommendation' and turn it into a necessity for their scheme.

UKARA made it a necessity to join their database (though they seemed to ditch some of the other requirements they came up with for the Home Office) so I'm wondering why Luther are just taking on the same requirement as UKARA without (seemingly) any need to.

 

[fivezerothree]

Sounds good.

I don't see why it can't just use a Phone App as well as a dedicated barcode scanner.

Phone Apps are more useful 'in the field'

As well as the cost of cards, readers and software development you have to factor in the cost of your database hosting and bandwidth.

Someone is going to have to spec and supply a server and it's connection.

A 'standard' PC won't be enough. You will need either hosting or a proper server. Raided and backed up.

If I had a penny for everytime people underestimated the team!!!

We do this stuff for a day job so we know what's best Swoop, we're not using someone's PC for christs sakes! I will get Dave to talk about server tech, if you like – you'll regret it!

Everyone is banging on about how useful a phone application will be but forgetting about downfalls. An 'app' is not the way forward, not for a system as complex as this. Using the camera on a phone like that is also a huge battery drain.

However they can use a spreadsheet application and use a barcode scanner in tandem which will work beautifully. All's you need do is upload the spreadsheet and done. A camera is not an efficient method of recording/interpreting data quickly, otherwise they'd be using them at the likes of Tesco would they not?

Signal strength is also an issue as it's guaranteed.. However as I mentioned above the spreadsheet plus the bluetooth barcode scanner will work perfectly.

 

[fivezerothree]

But Luther are looking to take that 'recommendation' and turn it into a necessity for their scheme.

UKARA made it a necessity to join their database (though they seemed to ditch some of the other requirements they came up with for the Home Office) so I'm wondering why Luther are just taking on the same requirement as UKARA without (seemingly) any need to.

You've got this all a little twisted buddy.

It's a good recommendation. It tests authenticity of new Airsoft players – more so than without it.

We will use it because it's responsible, unless you can think of something better.

 

[jcheeseright]

Hey guys thanks for all the feedback!

The one thing I will not shortlist as a possibility unfortunately, is QR codes. It's a failed system, a gimmick in my personal opinion and experience. And never, ever reliable. Relying on someones camera phone is not acceptable. The actual time it takes to register and read the QR code is also a factor. Unless the lighting is perfect and the angle correct it takes longer.

I think you've been doing it wrong, or scanning massive codes with hundreds of characters in them. I've scanned QR codes in bright sunlight, dirty engine rooms with oil smeared all over them, in the dark using a key fob torch. Have done it with a variety of devices too, there's a reason the military have replaced normal bar codes with QR codes so quickly to document the location of sensitive items (like weapons), it's because they're more reliable and can contain more information.

 

[fivezerothree]

I think you've been doing it wrong, or scanning massive codes with hundreds of characters in them. I've scanned QR codes in bright sunlight, dirty engine rooms with oil smeared all over them, in the dark using a key fob torch. Have done it with a variety of devices too, there's a reason the military have replaced normal bar codes with QR codes so quickly to document the location of sensitive items (like weapons), it's because they're more reliable and can contain more information.

Doing it wrong? lol Perhaps its the QR code being data intensive, yeah.

It's still the wrong way round though. Sites scan, players stand there. There's no current advantage to switching to QR codes as the tech to read barcodes is currently more efficient – speed is key and not something achieved with a QR code reader on a phone.

QR codes might be more applicable for the military to mess around with in their situation, but I don't see the point in spending more time creating an app that reads QR codes when it's simply not needed.

Askyourself, why do supermarkets not use QR codes instead of barcodes?

 

[CaptainSwoop]

If I had a penny for everytime people underestimated the team!!!

We do this stuff for a day job so we know what's best Swoop, we're not using someone's PC for christs sakes! I will get Dave to talk about server tech, if you like – you'll regret it!

Everyone is banging on about how useful a phone application will be but forgetting about downfalls. An 'app' is not the way forward, not for a system as complex as this. Using the camera on a phone like that is also a huge battery drain.

However they can use a spreadsheet application and use a barcode scanner in tandem which will work beautifully. All's you need do is upload the spreadsheet and done. A camera is not an efficient method of recording/interpreting data quickly, otherwise they'd be using them at the likes of Tesco would they not?

Signal strength is also an issue as it's guaranteed.. However as I mentioned above the spreadsheet plus the bluetooth barcode scanner will work perfectly.

I don't underestimate your team as I know nothing about them.. I do know servers and infrastructure though.

You will have estimates of the peak load you are going to get on a Saturday and Sunday evening when all the Skirmish sites start uploading their dat+a at the end of the day?

 

[fivezerothree]

I don't underestimate your team as I know nothing about them.. I do know servers and infrastructure though.

You will have estimates of the peak load you are going to get on a Saturday and Sunday evening when all the Skirmish sites start uploading their dat+a at the end of the day?

Estimates at this point? Nah. With the utmost of respect, this actually isn't an issue or something that can be improved upon so I'm not sure where this is going.. :/

Fifty sites uploading a 12 kb spreadsheet at the same time won't be an issue. The database updates will be queued.

 

[typefish]

Sounds good.

I don't see why it can't just use a Phone App as well as a dedicated barcode scanner.

Phone Apps are more useful 'in the field'

As well as the cost of cards, readers and software development you have to factor in the cost of your database hosting and bandwidth.

Someone is going to have to spec and supply a server and it's connection.

A 'standard' PC won't be enough. You will need either hosting or a proper server. Raided and backed up.

I was going to explain to you what I can get server wise in the UK, but since you said in a later post that you already know about servers and infrastructure, I'm looking at about 300 completed requests per second for data push via AB. It's quite easy to do if nginx/php-fpm/mysql is set up correct and the code is streamlined!

(That's what I'm attempting for data push via an API though - excel import would be slightly different, and as fivezerothree has correctly stated, this will be queued )

 

[Ian_Gere]

It's a rare thing when I agree with Longshot, but ring the bells and blow the whistles, today is that day! I don't have to invent an alternative to the internal combustion engine to be correct when I say it is crap at turning chemical energy into velocity. I hope everyone understands that, in the same way, I don't have to come up with an alternative to the 3 skirmishes in not less than 2 months for my point to have merit when I say that it is crap both for the purposes the VCRA is intended to address and, in light of that, an irritating hoop we have to jump through in order to enjoy a perfectly legal activity.

My understanding of the way these things work leads me to believe that hanging on to stuff intended to satisfy the VCRA which are not even legal requirements lends the Act credibility. Instead the airsoft community ought to be distancing ourselves from the Act and its baby, UKARA.

 

[Mike636]

What he said ^

 

[Longshot]

You've got this all a little twisted buddy.

It's a good recommendation. It tests authenticity of new Airsoft players – more so than without it.

We will use it because it's responsible, unless you can think of something better.

Could you point out what I've got 'twisted?'

UKARA came up with a requirement to join their database (3 games in over 2 months), which is not a legal requirement for anything, and your organisation is just copying the same game and timeframe limits.

 

[Longshot]

It's a rare thing when I agree with Longshot...

That's because you're a nice, understanding person in real life and on the Internet, whereas I'm a nice, understanding person in real life and a dick on the Internet.

 

[Ian_Gere]

No, I'm an offensive arse irl. I find it easier to consider what i intend the reader to understand from what i say online.

See, told ya we don't agree folks! :lol:

 

[jcheeseright]

Askyourself, why do supermarkets not use QR codes instead of barcodes?

Oh that one's easy; cost.

I really want this project to succeed and be a viable alternative to UKARA, but at the moment if I were a site owner I'd be failing to see the real tangible benefit to my business. £100 isn't much money I agree, but some sites are so cheap they use bin bags for team arm bands (sadly not a joke).

UKARA as a scheme has pitched everything at exactly the right level for sites; stamp a form and let a retailer worry about the admin. Most places I have played at file their waivers by attendance day and never do anything with them, many others just have a book which players sign to record their attendance.

I expect in order for the home office to get on board and accept it as a defence you'll need a LARGE amount of players, retailers and sites signed up and actively participating. For that level of market penetration to happen I honestly believe you need to offer significant benefits above and beyond it being cheaper for retailers and more flexible for players. A lot of sites make money on memberships too, this will be taking that money away from them and you're asking to charge £100 for the privelidge.

 

[fivezerothree]

Could you point out what I've got 'twisted?'

UKARA came up with a requirement to join their database (3 games in over 2 months), which is not a legal requirement for anything, and your organisation is just copying the same game and timeframe limits.

I dont see the point you're making.

As I have mentioned previously, yes, as it is a good recommendation.

Are you saying we should ride closer to the 'law'? The problem is, is that it's far from perfect and very grey – we wouldn't want to bring unhealthy attention towards us like that. Either way spit out what you mean and then I can begin to understand what you are trying to say. Other than that; I'm devoting a lot of my spare time to airsoft related projects at the moment and as such I respectfully don't have time for playing 'have a go solictor'!

 

[Longshot]

I dont see the point you're making.

As I have mentioned previously, yes, as it is a good recommendation.

Are you saying we should ride closer to the 'law'? The problem is, is that it's far from perfect and very grey – we wouldn't want to bring unhealthy attention towards us like that. Either way spit out what you mean and then I can begin to understand what you are trying to say. Other than that; I'm devoting a lot of my spare time to airsoft related projects at the moment and as such I respectfully don't have time for playing 'have a go solictor'!

Are you purposely being obtuse? I'm asking why you're just taking the same 'recommendation' that UKARA made up for themselves and making it a necessity in what you're labelling a new and better scheme. Have you given any thought as to whether that is indeed the best policy?

 

[fivezerothree]

Oh that one's easy; cost.

I really want this project to succeed and be a viable alternative to UKARA, but at the moment if I were a site owner I'd be failing to see the real tangible benefit to my business. £100 isn't much money I agree, but some sites are so cheap they use bin bags for team arm bands (sadly not a joke).

UKARA as a scheme has pitched everything at exactly the right level for sites; stamp a form and let a retailer worry about the admin. Most places I have played at file their waivers by attendance day and never do anything with them, many others just have a book which players sign to record their attendance.

I expect in order for the home office to get on board and accept it as a defence you'll need a LARGE amount of players, retailers and sites signed up and actively participating. For that level of market penetration to happen I honestly believe you need to offer significant benefits above and beyond it being cheaper for retailers and more flexible for players. A lot of sites make money on memberships too, this will be taking that money away from them and you're asking to charge £100 for the privelidge.

I think most of your points are coming from misunderstanding.The tangible benefit is digitising common processes – it allows for a mostly automatic beginning to end process, saves time and thus money. Sites will also be able to do a lot with this data should they choose to, such as in depth data analysis and interpretation – the foundation of modern business.

UKARA doesn't have everything right, it's an awful system and the UKARA founding members will openly admit that. The fact that some poor sod has to check a piece of paper, stamp it, sign it and post it is frankly a process from the early 90s.

Yeah some sites have gotten very cosy with required memberships, but if UKARA equates to 80% of these defences in the UK or rather holds the majority and forces membership? Comeeee onnnnn, it's not required, that is lazy business of which shouldn't be mixed with sort of proof system. Luckily most sites offer a good incentive to become a member. But this is a player defence and it simply measures your attendances. No other fuss required. Being a member of a particular site means very little given how many sites there are compared to airsofters in the UK. However it's a point I think should put to a vote as soon as more has been done.

Regarding the Home Office, ACPO and all that business – don't worry about it. All covered.

 

[fivezerothree]

Are you purposely being obtuse? I'm asking why you're just taking the same 'recommendation' that UKARA made up for themselves and making it a necessity in what you're labelling a new and better scheme. Have you given any thought as to whether that is indeed the best policy?

No, [redacted], I'm not being obtuse but I am being tested by someone who can't take a bloody straight answer! lol

Yes – we think it is the best recommendation.

We're not having name calling. We will discuss this politely or not at all - Ian_Gere

 

[Longshot]

Right, so you're saying that the UKARA policy that playing 3 games over more than 2 months is what everyone should have to do before being allowed to buy a RIF, AND that this is something everyone at Luther has seriously discussed and agreed upon. I get that now.

That being the case here are some examples I want you to consider:

1, a person plays one game in January, one game in June and one game in December. They CAN buy RIFs with Luther (as long as they remember to sign up before they even play their first game).

2, a person plays one game a week for six weeks. They CAN'T buy RIFs with Luther.

3, a person turns up for a weekender game as their first airsoft experience and pays £100 up front for the whole weekend. They CAN'T buy RIFs with Luther (though one of the founding members of UKARA WILL sell them a RIF when they turn up).

Do you honestly not think there are any issues with sticking someone else's already problematic restrictions in your new and improved scheme?