the great airsoft robbery, or how much would you pay?

Pragmatically, the only way to compete against that is to offer more value to your customers, all the way through the ownership process, soup to nuts.  That means better marketing, easier purchasing, ready parts supply, no-quibble support, and most of all backing your own brand by owning the entire supply chain.


Agreed, and come to think of it I cannot think of a single big time manufacturer who has been easy to get in touch with.. and I've had to get in touch with quite a few of them over the years (KWA, G&G, CA, G&P); disservice to themselves as well as their customers.

 
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I'm not seeing the distinction you're drawing here. TM spent $1m of their R&D budget to develop NGRS, and recouped that by amortising the development cost over the NGRS it sold. They might not be saying "exactly $67 per rifle" but I assure you with absolute certainty that their budgeting includes amortising overheads in the cost of their products. Products that were more expensive to develop are sold at a higher price than ones that weren't. The price of every TM product will be part raw materials, part development budget, part operating costs, part worker salaries etc. just like the price of every other product from every other manufacturer.

Can you elaborate on what the difference you're seeing is?


It's pretty simple really: 

Big company product cycle = make product A - sell product A at a profit - take 10% of overall profit and return it to R&D department - develop product B - sell products A and B at a profit - etc

Small company product cycle - develop product A - raise capital from external investment/remortgaging your life - calculate cost of product as total cost of development and investment payback and divide by the number your business plan says you can achieve - sell product A at that price - hopefully sell enough to turn a profit then plough as much of what's left after you pay the investors off back into product development. 

The difference is that a large company with an established product portfolio will make profit from its existing sales that can then be spent on developing new products, effectively the old stuff will subsidise the new stuff. A small startup company doesn't have that catalogue to draw on so either they sell at a realistic price that will provide turnover and cash flow or they try and recoup the entire project cost by jacking up the product price. The latter will always run the risk of alienating the customer base unless the product really is just THAT GOOD.

Personally I think that TM are taking the piss with the price of the NGRS but the market lets them get away with it because it's TM, just like Apple does.

As far as Odin go, they have continued to develop their product, to the best of my knowledge nobody else has copied the rubber silencer insert as yet, plus they have got more models at least to the prototype stage so they've not actually "died". By partnering/ licensing with Tippmann and EMG they have done exactly what I suggested earlier which is to get in bed with someone with an established product range that allows them to subsidise production and sell at a more sensible price point.

You are absolutely correct that we should support small companies and shop local and everything else but as with all things, budget restrictions (and in some cases ITAR restrictions) stop us doing that.

Full disclosure - I bought a cheap knock off Sidewinder and it was shit. The winder fell apart, the mag latch fell out but it still worked. At the time the original Odin was still in the £65-70 price bracket which for me (and clearly a lot of people) that was just too much. I have now caved and a genuine Odin M12 in (appropriately enough) "drama-free blue" is on it's way to me now.

 
One could view the knock offs as being marketing for the genuine ones.

 
I'm about to order a bunch of upgrade parts from Japan! I can't believe how much gearbox parts have gone up since I last upgraded my gearbox. With EMS factored in I will still be saving 1/3 on UK dealer prices... unless that is customs get hold of the package! 

Going back to Odin's speeloader the cheapest I've seen it in the UK is about £50 but it was some god damn awful tan colour. None of my kit is tan! Actually I think that was on ebay I saw it... so it may have been a knock-off! I'll see if my mate in HK can find one and post one to me! 

 
Going back to Odin's speeloader the cheapest I've seen it in the UK is about £50 but it was some god damn awful tan colour. None of my kit is tan!
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't wear my speedloader on me.  It stays in my bag.  It could be neon yellow for all I care as long as it does it's job.

 
I can't believe how much gearbox parts have gone up since I last upgraded my gearbox. 


Yeah I was pretty shocked when I started on my ongoing upgrade and repair projects to my current collection - I used to be able to build a decent V2 from scratch with new and old parts for around 50 quid, sometimes less...   Most V2 shells alone start at around the 30-40 quid mark now!  

 
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't wear my speedloader on me.  It stays in my bag.  It could be neon yellow for all I care as long as it does it's job.


LOL.... OCD mate!

Yeah I was pretty shocked when I started on my ongoing upgrade and repair projects to my current collection - I used to be able to build a decent V2 from scratch with new and old parts for around 50 quid, sometimes less...   Most V2 shells alone start at around the 30-40 quid mark now!  


I agree, I remember buying a whole bundle of stuff from HK and thinking that was pretty cheap compared to the mainline UK stores (of which there were only 2 in those days)... ok the fx rate was so much better then especially with the USD but still you can't justify some of the prices...

I wonder what affect Corona will have once the global supply chain start suffering... 

 
It's already happening. Lots of retailers are showing short or no stock, dropshippers aren't shipping either. It's not just airsoft either.


Can confirm.

A couple of eBay sellers already messaged me offering a return, because of the massive delays caused by the China Numba Wuhan flu.

General purpose stuff too.

 
Can confirm.

A couple of eBay sellers already messaged me offering a return, because of the massive delays caused by the China Numba Wuhan flu.

General purpose stuff too.


Just to bring the whole thread round on itself, Odin Innovations have now stated that COVID-19 is having a significant impact on production of the new Transformer loader!

 
Just to bring the whole thread round on itself, Odin Innovations have now stated that COVID-19 is having a significant impact on production of the new Transformer loader!
god damn it I want it! Where you seeing this information? Last info I seen about the Transformer was back in early 2019. 

 
Just to bring the whole thread round on itself, Odin Innovations have now stated that COVID-19 is having a significant impact on production of the new Transformer loader!


Now, to be absolute memers, they should make a virus-shaped speedloader.

 
I don't see anyone has mentioned that the people working in Japan for Marui/tanaka/marushin ect will cost more than it being made in China. Fair wages for fair work. 

You also tend to get less lemons from a qc point of view from Japan than China. QC really doesn't seem to be their strong point at times. 

A similar case would be the Michelin truck tyre remould QC centre that's in Stoke on trent. 

It was outsourced to China, and suddenly they found almost nothing was rejected and Michelin had a higher failure rate. They've since come back to Stoke. 

 
Or the Enola Gaye model, their factory is in China, but they don’t contract a Chinese pyrotechnics factory.  They have built their own factory and employ in China.

This gives them full control over their products from R&D, manufacture, testing, delivery and more testing.

https://enolagaye.com/the-company/

 
Or the Enola Gaye model, their factory is in China, but they don’t contract a Chinese pyrotechnics factory.  They have built their own factory and employ in China.

This gives them full control over their products from R&D, manufacture, testing, delivery and more testing.

https://enolagaye.com/the-company/
But at that point I think it's not really cheaper to manufacture in China.

If you want high quality standards you'll have to invest the same money in training you'd spend in Europe.

Yes, of course you save on salary, but everything else is pretty much the same in terms of cost.

 
We should only buy British made replicas keep the Pound strong! Anyone who doesn't isn't making Great Britain Great! 

I don't see anyone has mentioned that the people working in Japan for Marui/tanaka/marushin ect will cost more than it being made in China. Fair wages for fair work. 

You also tend to get less lemons from a qc point of view from Japan than China. QC really doesn't seem to be their strong point at times. 


Never considered that really good point.  I think it's widely considered accepted that TM pistols are much higher quality than anything else out there and thus worth the extra money for most of us.  But it's very user specific as if you don't use your side arm much or if at all then it's not worth the extra money. 

 
I don't see anyone has mentioned that the people working in Japan for Marui/tanaka/marushin ect will cost more than it being made in China. Fair wages for fair work. 

You also tend to get less lemons from a qc point of view from Japan than China. QC really doesn't seem to be their strong point at times. 

A similar case would be the Michelin truck tyre remould QC centre that's in Stoke on trent. 

It was outsourced to China, and suddenly they found almost nothing was rejected and Michelin had a higher failure rate. They've since come back to Stoke. 


Wage cost is less of a measure on Chinese manufacturing now, Hong Kong is equal top in the world for the cost of living:




The ten most expensive cities in the world




Country


City


WCOL index (New York=100)


Rank


Rank movement




Singapore


Singapore


107


1


0




France


Paris


107


1


1




China


Hong Kong


107


1


3




Switzerland


Zurich


106


4


-2




Switzerland


Geneva


101


5


1




Japan


Osaka


101


5


6




South Korea


Seoul


100


7


-1




Denmark


Copenhagen


100


7


1




US


New York


100


7


6




Israel


Tel Aviv


99


10


-1




US


Los Angeles


99


10


4



Quite often the sheer volume of production that China can muster is the deciding factor on cost!

 
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