The GBBR Thread

[Airsoft-Ed]

If this is a general gbbr thread, are we good to put up pictures of our own?

Yeah, that's what I was trying to promote with my last paragraph in the OP. ^_^

 

[M_P]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to promote with my last paragraph in the OP. ^_^

Come on, you should all know by now that I'm pretty retarded.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

True dat

 

[dapprman]

A lot of places are now starting to sell GHK, though how much they know to be able to assist/support is a different matter. Proairsoftsupplies are selling them and possibly other GBBRs - Jez from there is a long term GBBR user - only GBBR stuff I've bought in this country though has been from Milspec (bought my G5 in HK and brought it back with me, extra mags from Samoon).

On Milspec Solutions - I've heard similar tales from else where - I agree it does sound like Iain has some anger management issues.

 

[cavninja]

Thank you Ed! for starting this thread! Nirvana!!!

I've been involved in airsoft for less than a year and the whole reason I got involved was because of a GBBR and the level of realism it had. I happened to be looking at a two tone WE H&K 416 in my local store, the owner let me handle it and I couldn't believe how realistic it was! Weight, feel, action and operation, even stripping it down, complete with dummy non functioning gas parts!

I was hooked! I bought my first GBB, a HFC Glock 17, very plastic, but actually very reliable and still used as a back up gun today. A friend shipped me from the states a WE 416, complete with trades! and its awesome!

True, in the summer its hot! in the winter, it needs some lovin'! But when it works, i'm in the CQB zone, with a laser and my tracer unit, the screams and shrieks coming from the opposition followed by "HIT"!!! are awesome!!!

I've never used and AEG, or a Hi Cap or even a Mid Cap, using my GBB is so similar to using the real deal when i was in the Army, i carry 6 mags, 180 rounds, I rarely get through therm all, and if I do, a mid sized speed loader will allow me a full re-bomb, (just like carrying bandoliers). For longer games I carry more ammo and gas in a small days sack. I'm cautious and as accurate as I can be with my fire and my ammo. Blazing away with a 400 round mag was not why I got in to airsoft. Nothing against AEGs and those hwo use them, some of the guns look awesome and the accuracy and reliability is , but when it fires and makes a noise like and asmatic ant coughing up a fur ball, it just kills it for me, sorry.

I'm still learning, as this is my first winter and I'm still experimenting with gas and various mods, but I'm learning all the time and its pretty basic, even for me! I've done hop rubber changes, inner barrel changes and even had a go at shortening the inner barrel! (that went from being a disaster to working pretty good!). I even fitted my NPAS! (Thank you Youtube!!)

I've recently got my son in to airsoft and GBBs and got him a TM MP7, which he loves and I've also got myself a WE L85, it needs some work on it and I've not had a chance to get it up and running, but looking forward to getting it in the field! So any tips on the L85 much appreciated Ed, (yes, I'm a regular on your channel!)

I skirmished and the Sandpit in Kent last summer and saw a father and son team with a pair of stock GHK G5s and they were superb, for range, accuracy and reliability! Personally, I wasn't keen on the polymer feel of the gun, but I'm seriously looking at the GHK M4 as my next project. Though I think it'll set me back a bob or two.

Below is my baby and my side arm, a TM Sig P226 with full Guarder metal kit and springs, below that, the collection!!! So far......

VIVE LA GAS!!!!!

 

[cavninja]

Does anyone have any GBB top tips to share?

I've found with lubrication that dry cleaning and a light spray of silicon oil is better then over doing it or using grease.

And a single layer of electrical tape around a GBB mag, so that it improves the fit in to the mag well, improves the consistency of the seal between the nozzle at the top of the mag and the bottom of the nozzle in the gun, Thanks Youtube!!

 

[sp00n]

One thing people who are moving to GBBRs need to be aware of is, unlike with an AEG, changing barrel length will change the power. The longer the gas can expand in the barrel the more power you get - so reduce the barrel size and you'll get a drop in FPS. Increasing mine by 4" (using the GHK G5 carbine kit) increased my fps by ~25-30 with 0.20g pellets. There is a limit to the increase - if the barrel is long enough for the released gas to completely expand then the pellet will reach maximum velocity before exiting the barrel - not sure how long ti would need to be though, I suspect far too long to be usable.

it is exactly the same with AEG's, as in AEG's as its a compressed air charge vrs barrel length vrs barrel diameter etc.

increasing barrel length = more fps, reducing barrel length = less fps etc etc

fitting a TBB = increased fps .... you get the picture :lol:

ill admit i was/am majorly put off buy the cost of gas ... and i was/am a major advocate of AEG/AEP's ....... but i am looking at a WE MP5A3 B)

 

[M_P]

ill admit i was/am majorly put off buy the cost of gas ... and i was/am a major advocate of AEG/AEP's ....... but i am looking at a WE MP5A3 B)

It's not that much more when you factor in that you're firing a few hundred rounds as opposed to the odd thousand each time. With gbbrs I can make a 3000 rd bottle last about 7+ game days- Most aeg users will struggle to get 3 so the savings work out quite well, especially if you're running propane rather than green or other 'airsoft' gas.

 

[sp00n]

i should also note ... i work for a company that manufactures aerosols .... :lol: h34r:

(if anyone could email me a COSHH sheet for current gas that would be epic)

 

[Josh95]

As far as AKs go - GHK is the only choice really, the standard WE offering isn't upto much OOTB and requires upgrading. For roughly the same price a GHK will run beautifully out of the box. Best gun I ever bought

tempted to buy a gas gun in the summer, might look into a GHK

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

it is exactly the same with AEG's, as in AEG's as its a compressed air charge vrs barrel length vrs barrel diameter etc.

increasing barrel length = more fps, reducing barrel length = less fps etc etc

fitting a TBB = increased fps .... you get the picture :lol:

ill admit i was/am majorly put off buy the cost of gas ... and i was/am a major advocate of AEG/AEP's ....... but i am looking at a WE MP5A3 B)

As Marcus said, I use hella expensive ammo, costs me £12 a bag for only 2000, but it lasts me about 3 game days, so £4 per game day on ammo, and about £7 on gas based on a £9 propane canister lasting me a little over one game day = about £11 per game day on gas and ammo.

That's only slightly worse than an AEG user buying a single pot of 3000 .25s per game day for £10. Most people will buy cheaper ammo than me so their running costs will probably be directly in line with most AEG users.

Also, going back to the whole, barrel length alters fps thing, it's actually pretty dangerous with gas guns in some cases because of Joule creep.

My L85 shipped with a 509mm long, 6.01mm tight bore and it was almost impossible to chrono safe using my ammo of choice - .28s.

I initially chrono'd using .20s to set the NPAS for 350fps, which was the site limit. Conversion charts state that firing .28s through a rifle shooting .20s at 350 ought to lower the power to around 295, but when I re-chrono'd with .28s, it was doing 335... 40fps over the limit for that weight.

So adding heavier ammo actually increased the joule output by the equivalent of 40fps...

It happens because gas guns fire significantly more gas down the barrel than needed for each shot, the mechanism sends gas forwards until the pressure closes a valve, then that valve redirects the rest of it to the back, which knocks the bolt over the hammer, knocking the hammer off the valve on the mag, which shuts off the gas supply.

Lighter ammo doesn't take as much energy to send out of the barrel, .20s probably use up around 20% of the total gas volume being sent down the barrel. So when you add heavier ammo, it takes more energy to push them out of the gun, but gas guns have that extra energy in spades! So the power just increases instead of staying the same with most AEGs.

In AEGs it doesn't happen as much because generally cylinders are ported so that the air volume of the cylinder matches that of the barrel, so it takes all the air the gun can muster just to fire a .2 out, so when you add heavier weights, the power remains the same because there's more barrel than air, the shot stops accelerating before it leaves the gun, whereas in gas guns the shot is still accelerating until it's free of the barrel.

It's a pretty hard thing to explain... So I hope that explanation makes sense...

Basically though, it means that if you don't chrono on the weight you intend to use, you will more than likely be firing hot once you load heavier ammo if you're using a gas gun.

 

[cavninja]

It's a pretty hard thing to explain... So I hope that explanation makes sense...

Basically though, it means that if you don't chrono on the weight you intend to use, you will more than likely be firing hot once you load heavier ammo if you're using a gas gun.

I think that's a pretty good explanation Ed, cheers, I'm still baffled why sites insist on chrono-ing on 0.2s, surely it would make sense to chrono on what you intend to use and adjust the chrono for the weigh of the BB?

I know what you mean about running hot, my 416 was over 400 out of the box, the NPAS is a must! There's also a great vid on Youtube of some Japanese guy doing a power point on how an NPAS works, that makes using it a lot clearer!! lol

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I think that's a pretty good explanation Ed, cheers, I'm still baffled why sites insist on chrono-ing on 0.2s, surely it would make sense to chrono on what you intend to use and adjust the chrono for the weigh of the BB?

I know what you mean about running hot, my 416 was over 400 out of the box, the NPAS is a must! There's also a great vid on Youtube of some Japanese guy doing a power point on how an NPAS works, that makes using it a lot clearer!! lol

It's just a valve with a screw through it so you can alter the overall length. The valves can move forwards and backwards and are sat under spring tension. When gas flows through it the pressure naturally closes the valve against the force of the spring, compressing it, then once the valve is closed it redirects the gas to the rear, cycling the action.

The longer the valve, the less it has to move to block off flow down the barrel, so the faster it travels the distance, so the less time gas has to squeeze through the opening, so the lower the fps. If you shorten it then it takes the valve longer to move into position to block off the flow, so the fps is higher.

The time it takes to move into position and block off flow to the barrel is referred to as "dwell" time, and once the action cycling cuts off the gas supply, the pressure drops allowing the spring to return the valve to its original position.

It's kinda weird to think that you have the main bolt, which moves back and forth, then inside that is the nozzle, which moves back and forth, and then inside that you have the valve which also moves back and forth and one moving sets off the next, so it's like a Mexican wave effect.

Valve moves forwards, which sets off the nozzle moving forwards relative to the bolt which moves backwards away from it. Then the bolt shuts off the gas flow, returning the valve to its original position, as well as the nozzle via the nozzle return spring, and then the bolt itself via the recoil spring. And it all happens in like, less than half a second. It's seriously awesome lol.

I really wish I could make some 3D animations showing how it all works, 'cos I think it'd be amazing to watch happen in slow motion, but obviously the parts can't all be made transparent and I'm shit at 3D modelling... To the point where I wouldn't even know where to start =[

I find it mind bogglingly fascinating in its simplicity though, and it makes me wonder why you can't have an NPAS for all gas weapons, including pistols... I mean, it's just a valve that you alter the length of with a screw... Surely to god that can be produced to allow pistols to alter their fps too? Hell, why not just produce myriad valves of different lengths for the fps required? Smaller = more fps. They could label with with the fps they produce so you could get like "Sniper valves" or "CQB valves" or whatever. I'm amazed manufacturers aren't trying to milk us dry by doing it that way instead of providing us with one thing that can be adjusted by the user. It's like capitalism was asleep and missed an opportunity lol.

 

[cavninja]

It is complicated and simple all at the same time?! lol, that's why I found this guys explanation a real help in getting my head round what I was trying to do with my NPAS!!

I'm sure i once saw something that was billed as an FPS reducer, kind of like a set of spacers that fitted on or behind a muzzle flash, they were colour coded for differing amounts of reduction? Or maybe i'm getting confused with something for AEGs?

 

[sp00n]

your welcome

bo11o..s was beaten to it

 

[sp00n]

As Marcus said, I use hella expensive ammo, costs me £12 a bag for only 2000, but it lasts me about 3 game days, so £4 per game day on ammo, and about £7 on gas based on a £9 propane canister lasting me a little over one game day = about £11 per game day on gas and ammo.

That's only slightly worse than an AEG user buying a single pot of 3000 .25s per game day for £10. Most people will buy cheaper ammo than me so their running costs will probably be directly in line with most AEG users.

Also, going back to the whole, barrel length alters fps thing, it's actually pretty dangerous with gas guns in some cases because of Joule creep.

My L85 shipped with a 509mm long, 6.01mm tight bore and it was almost impossible to chrono safe using my ammo of choice - .28s.

I initially chrono'd using .20s to set the NPAS for 350fps, which was the site limit. Conversion charts state that firing .28s through a rifle shooting .20s at 350 ought to lower the power to around 295, but when I re-chrono'd with .28s, it was doing 335... 40fps over the limit for that weight.

So adding heavier ammo actually increased the joule output by the equivalent of 40fps...

It happens because gas guns fire significantly more gas down the barrel than needed for each shot, the mechanism sends gas forwards until the pressure closes a valve, then that valve redirects the rest of it to the back, which knocks the bolt over the hammer, knocking the hammer off the valve on the mag, which shuts off the gas supply.

Lighter ammo doesn't take as much energy to send out of the barrel, .20s probably use up around 20% of the total gas volume being sent down the barrel. So when you add heavier ammo, it takes more energy to push them out of the gun, but gas guns have that extra energy in spades! So the power just increases instead of staying the same with most AEGs.

In AEGs it doesn't happen as much because generally cylinders are ported so that the air volume of the cylinder matches that of the barrel, so it takes all the air the gun can muster just to fire a .2 out, so when you add heavier weights, the power remains the same because there's more barrel than air, the shot stops accelerating before it leaves the gun, whereas in gas guns the shot is still accelerating until it's free of the barrel.

It's a pretty hard thing to explain... So I hope that explanation makes sense...

Basically though, it means that if you don't chrono on the weight you intend to use, you will more than likely be firing hot once you load heavier ammo if you're using a gas gun.

to be honest i think there has only been 2 or 3 times when i have used more than 1K bb's (my local site is semi only so usually a hicap very very easily lasts a game or 3 ... i should use my 120rd mid caps ... i am just lazy :lol:

barrel length and joule creep are different issues, that said one can effect another ... if that makes sense :lol:

i feel your pain ed, one day my G&G L85 was fine with 0.25's (310fps) the next week i was shooting at 328 -335fps ... the only thing i had changed was the flash hider to a surefire clone ... :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: i cannot explane that (it should be noted that i have had a lot of issues with the FPS on my L85 ... originally it would only shoot at 404fps no matter what spring i fitted )

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

barrel length and joule creep are different issues, that said one can effect another ... if that makes sense :lol:

They are different, but the longer the barrel, the more power a gas gun can put behind even a low weight shot. So the danger associated with joule creep gets amplified by longer barrels. Longer the barrel, the more gas can be applied to the shot.

Once I get a chrono I'm going to do some proper tests and record it, 'cos I'm really interested to see how powerful I can make my L85 if I really ramp it all up - long tight barrel, heaviest ammo I can buy, NPAS cranked all the way open. I reckon it'll make short work of pretty tough shit, thinking of testing it against tins of beans.

But anyway, I ended up fitting my L85 with a shorter barrel, now there's about 6 inches of outer barrel over the end of the inner barrel, just because I didn't want to risk any freak heat waves from turning my L85 into a hole punch lol

 

[PT247]

If after GHK guns then Samoon are well worth checking out. Fantastc service, free bits and they understand our customs/VAT rules. Fast shipping too and probs cheapest G5 mags you'll find if buying in pairs!

 

[Chock]

Does anyone have any GBB top tips to share?

I've found with lubrication that dry cleaning and a light spray of silicon oil is better then over doing it or using grease.

Just to be clear here, unless you are unbelievably careful about where any oil or grease is going, silicone oil is really the only stuff you should be using to lubricate your gas blowback (or even non blowback) weapons, because other types of oil or grease can attack the rubber and synthetic o-ring valve seals on your mags and weapon internals. So don't be spraying WD-40 or some stuff like that in your GBB, or you may wreck the thing and have to take it apart to replace the seals on it.

You don't need to go to an airsoft store to find silicone lubricant incidentally, you can find aerosol silicone lubricant in most car spares places, and it will cost you maybe a fiver for a can of it, which usually comes with a little straw attached to the can so you can direct the spray onto the working parts properly. Theoretically if you were careful, you could use other lubricants on parts that don't have any rubber or synthetic o-ring gas seals, but if you stick with the silicone lubricant, you can cheerfully spray it all over the internals of the weapon and not worry about it at all.

Another thing to watch out for when it comes to lubricating your GBB (or rather prior to doing so), is to be especially careful if it is an AK74 or AK47 with wooden furniture. In emulating a real AK, the wooden furniture on a lot of airsoft AKs, is not always brilliantly finished, so in fact it is not always properly sealed with varnish. This means that if you start spraying lubricating oil about, and it gets onto unsealed wood, not only will it weaken, distort and swell the wood as it soaks in, but it will also stain it. So, one of the best things you can do with a new GBB AK, is to check the wooden furniture to see if it is sealed with varnish (paying particular attention to the unseen parts of a wooden fore grip, and especially any end grain bits). If it aint thoroughly covered with varnish, give it a quick spray or brush over with some to ensure that it is, and in fact, the crappier a job you make of doing that that, the more authentic it will actually look, given the fact that the average real AK's wooden furniture looks like it was painted by a blind man who was having an epileptic fit at the time, and the average Chinese Type 56 looks like it was painted by that blind man's pet dog.

 

[cavninja]

If after GHK guns then Samoon are well worth checking out. Fantastc service, free bits and they understand our customs/VAT rules. Fast shipping too and probs cheapest G5 mags you'll find if buying in pairs!

Awesome tip! I've now got a serious fire in my pocket!! Have you ever imported from them? any experience on what its like with import tax/duty etc?

I've just compared the prices of a GHK M4 + 5 mags and you can save yourself about £200! but it's no good if the tax man shafts you once it gets here!