starting hpa with some questions

[ghostwalker]

So for background. Many moons ago (2004-2008) i used to play that other sport of paintball and to be exact super air paintball. So i have a basic understanding of the tanks.

But after much fettling, swearing, sulking and a few 'dont throw it at the wall' moments. I have given up on figuring out the gearbox issues on my Tm G3. A bunch of friends of have all just got into hpa systems with the Polstar Kythera and i was thinking of following a similar line.

Looking about it seems the Kythera is popular as its sold out everywhere i look in the uk.

But that got me wondering about the Fusion engines or Wolverine engines. As i understand it. They take a little less bedding in as they are not purely mechanical. But the flip side is they require a mini lipo power source and wouldnt be considered 'waterproof' like the kythera (i don't plan any underwater skirmishes).

Installation seems to be fairly straight forward and it seems like wolverine offer a few more 'how to videos' from the hour or so i spent on youtube.

From a stockist point of view wolverine seem better supported in the uk or is it just a case of 'that new popular thing' with them?

Outside of that im guessing tank wise its the usual carbon fibre is lighter over aluminium is more 'robust'. Regulators seem to be a case of most shops fitting a ballystic as standard (assuming this is almost the default go to for a starter).

Airlines are much of a muchness it seems and its down to fashion and length.

I was thinking of getting a pcp airgun compressor like they have on airsmiths as a filling option. A for simplicity, B i live 25 miles from the nearest dive shop and dont drive and finally C a pump would be cheap and simple but appears to be a heck of a lot of work though portable if the need arose.

Am i missing much or is that in essence the jist of things and would the £150 difference between a Kythera and the Inferno/Fusion systems be a good £150 or bad £150 investment.

For clarity and ease. The tm g3 is a version 2 gearbox.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Waterproofness will be no better or worse than an aeg with a fancy mosfet.

For installation etc have a little read here, it's mostly focused on polaratar but has some details on the tuning:







As a starter engine i'd lean towards reccommending the f2 over the fusion, less shenanigans to get dialed in and can be taken to a wider range of platforms in the future.

 

[Tommikka]

So for background. Many moons ago (2004-2008) i used to play that other sport of paintball and to be exact super air paintball. So i have a basic understanding of the tanks.

…..

Outside of that im guessing tank wise its the usual carbon fibre is lighter over aluminium is more 'robust'. Regulators seem to be a case of most shops fitting a ballystic as standard (assuming this is almost the default go to for a starter).

Airlines are much of a muchness it seems and its down to fashion and length.

I was thinking of getting a pcp airgun compressor like they have on airsmiths as a filling option. A for simplicity, B i live 25 miles from the nearest dive shop and dont drive and finally C a pump would be cheap and simple but appears to be a heck of a lot of work though portable if the need arose.

Am i missing much or is that in essence the jist of things and would the £150 difference between a Kythera and the Inferno/Fusion systems be a good £150 or bad £150 investment.

I can’t help on the modification side, but can with general air.

Cylinders - Correct.  It’s all the same thing.
On a like for like basis 3000psi aluminium is heavier than a 4500psi fibre.  But a standard aluminium 48ci is a similar weight to a standard fibre 68ci - the true difference being larger physical capacity of 20ci plus greater pressure potential.

A 48ci aluminium is heavier than a stubby 48ci fibre

But reality comes down to efficiency and capacity.  An HPA airsoft gun shooting 6mm BBs ought to be more efficient than a 0.68” paintball at up to 16 joules / 12 foot pounds / 280 to 300fps

You ought to be able to play a game with a 13ci 3000psi aluminium which renders it even lighter 

(Ultra lite fibre cylinders are lighter - but at more cost)
 

A 3000psi aluminium at £30 to £40 is valid for use in the UK for 10 years (and then can be retested on a 5 year cycle forever  - but you could generally buy a new one)

A fibre at £150 lasts 5 years between tests and either a maximum of 15 years (lifetime cost of approx £200 depending on where you test) or the newest standard can last forever - but many manufacturers still mark for a maximum 15 years

48ci of 3000psi for 10 years at £30 beats 68ci of 4500psi for 5 or 15 at £150 to £200 (with a rough 50% increase from air pressure that’s about 100ci of 3000psi - double the air for an up front of 5 times the cost 

The true benefit of fibre 4500s is the range of sizes which allow for fine tuning the ergonomics of a paintball gun/marker.

As soon as you run a remote line and carry in a pouch then you’ve thrown away that benefit

A 13ci 3000psi cylinder is the most compact option 

Airsoft does need regulating down to lower pressures than paintball.  In paintball we can happily attach any cylinder to any (modern) paintball gun/marker, with an integral regulator as factory standard

In airsoft a further inline regulator is typically required, but there are some airsoft guns that can be directly fed by a cylinder.

I generally advise against self fill solutions - if the site you play at can’t provide air then it becomes a pain to provide it yourself.

A PCP stirrup is up to the job.  But must be built well enough for regular use, be filtered, and takes physical effort - the bigger your cylinder the more capacity you need to fill to achieve pressure

Home compression systems are now available, but get expensive to be suitable for any amount of use and need to be maintained.

A better compromise if needing your own solution is a scuba cylinder to cascade to your playing cylinder.

Or instead of spending £150 on a fibre and more on personal fill systems you could have 5 standard aluminium cylinders (ideally filled at a site for free) or an aluminum and a scuba (filled at a dive shop and cascaded to the playing cylinder)

 

[ghostwalker]

So i spoke to the guys at airsmiths and hpa airsoft and after some tooing and froing. Ordered a Wolverine Inferno Premium bundle that comes with the braided line, air hose, 48ci tank and ballystic reg and the mini lipo. Ordered a stirrup pump as a bit of a back up and something that can get chucked in the kit bag for game days incase of emergency refills.

A dive tank is not really an option for me as i dont drive and it would mean carrying half hour to the train station and then another half hour to hour at the other end to the dive shop. Then all the way back again.

I was looking at one of these as a fill at home option...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/12V-Portable-pcp-Compressor-Transformer/dp/B07QRG14B4/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=pcp+compressor&qid=1683721570&refinements=p_85%3A20930949031&rnid=20930948031&rps=1&sr=8-6

As it seems to come with its own built in oil/water filter and doesn't require oil or an external water source when running.  Not sure if thats better than one of the bigger compressors that seems to need a water supply to a pump and regular oil top ups.

 

[Tommikka]

So i spoke to the guys at airsmiths and hpa airsoft and after some tooing and froing. Ordered a Wolverine Inferno Premium bundle that comes with the braided line, air hose, 48ci tank and ballystic reg and the mini lipo. Ordered a stirrup pump as a bit of a back up and something that can get chucked in the kit bag for game days incase of emergency refills.

A dive tank is not really an option for me as i dont drive and it would mean carrying half hour to the train station and then another half hour to hour at the other end to the dive shop. Then all the way back again.

I was looking at one of these as a fill at home option...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/12V-Portable-pcp-Compressor-Transformer/dp/B07QRG14B4/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=pcp+compressor&qid=1683721570&refinements=p_85%3A20930949031&rnid=20930948031&rps=1&sr=8-6

As it seems to come with its own built in oil/water filter and doesn't require oil or an external water source when running.  Not sure if thats better than one of the bigger compressors that seems to need a water supply to a pump and regular oil top ups.

Ensure that you have a filter for the stirrup pump (they can be added aftermarket if necessary)

Clean air is essential.  I’ve seen the aftermath of air system contamination and it’s not pretty…. Some pics in the thread here.

A contaminated cylinder could seem to be fine, but one day could also explode.

The pictures show the result of a flash fill explosion, with the HSE findings that the fill station became contaminated due to someone else’s previous fill from cylinder that had had its nipple oiled (never oil anything around your cylinder)

Back in the day fill procedures had become lacking and unrestricted high speed fills were happening - combine a fast fill, heat generation and oil contamination and you have built a diesel engine in a cylinder.

Slow down the fills and hopefully that risk is reduced  





As you’ve highlighted - scuba is out of the question.

So stirrup is a ‘good’ compromise for you, and will be good for your health.

You will have to work out what works best for you between regular top ups or larger refills:

Regular top ups are better for a few cases, that it doesn’t need as much air per top up and also involves less heat (which means you get more benefit from the pressure generated - a hot air fill will drop before you start play due to cooling)

Make sure all pumps are full and steady rather than fast and half hearted.  This is no problem for me as on the rare occasions the stirrup is used I have peasants to bully into the work / team members to delegate.

I’m going to be biased against the cheaper compressors, but users of then either love or hate them.

They are far from their bigger cousins, but don’t cost the £££s of a professional compressor etc

Home PCP systems aren’t built for regular running (but site systems also don’t get run all day either, they typically get run to fill large holding tanks, then are either automatically off or get turned off and then top off the holding tanks when players have filled)

Do pay attention to the manual and check out YouTube etc for advice.

Specific models may vary but it looks like the one below (at least 3 or 4 years ago) ought to be used with a water source etc

These show a bit of a story with a compressors ‘journey’ in getting it to actually work, but then success once it’s assembled and set up properly:

https://youtu.be/OM-0uE9wdQg

https://youtu.be/Y3IYrI1KvLg

https://youtu.be/UKOsrX0EitU

This next one shows a scuba cylinder after 5 years of PCP compressor fills, and though the camera view of the internal looks a bit scary at points it’s highly impressive on the lack of any moisture:

https://youtu.be/ZM0BukMuLYw

I’d still be reluctant with a personal compressor, but everyone’s needs differ, and they are doable.

PCP airguns use less air than paintball, but airsoft also uses less as well.

Recommendations will be to use it in a safe place, allowing plenty of time so that you can steadily fill and allow for cooling breaks etc and not at midnight keeping the neighbours awake