Starting a company

[Sgt_Cyrus]

Hey guys,

Me and some friends are starting our own events site which will be used as a CQB airsoft site as well as other activities and our own media department. We will also have a fabrication department that manufactures holsters, chest rigs, gun cases, etc. We will be doing custom work to guns.

I just want to make sure that my understanding of the VCRA is correct:

1) As we will have a valid defence, running our own site and using them for our media endeavours, we would'nt be breaking the law in regards to modifying guns that we import.

2) As we have a valid defence we would also be okay legally if we built our own RIF from scratch rather than importing.

3) As we have a valid defence for manufacturing said RIF, we could sell them as long as we covered ourselves by ensuring we captured the customers UKARA at the time of selling.

If my understanding of this is incorrect then please correct me. We are not looking to break the law or bring the sport into disrepute but we have some really cool ideas that we'd like to push forward with.

 

[RR01]

Can't see anything wrong with any of your points, other than as a site you would not have a UKARA registration, unless you join UKARA as a site operator / retailer, so would not be able to get any whole RIFs through customs without it. Not sure of the requirements for joining, but no doubt others on here will be able to assist. If not, try giving them a call.

As to setting up the company, you would probably be advised to register for VAT, as even if you do not gross enough in the first year to be required to register (about £80K these days I think), you could still voluntarily register, which means you can offset the VAT you pay on imports and anything you buy in the EU against the sales / charges to make in the business. The other problems will be with the various legislation, other than VCRA, that you need to comply with as a business. You would do well to consult a solicitor and accountant before you decide to go ahead and spend any real money on setting this up, just to make sure you are fully aware of all the likely problems you might encounter.

Once you are satisfied that you are going ahead with your eyes open then consider setting up a Limited Company as a little bit of protection for your personal assets. You could either buy one "off the shelf" or have one set up specifically tailored to your needs (they tend to cost a bit more) but £500 ought to be enough to get you up and running (I set up companies all the time, but for clients of a firm of solicitors, so cannot help directly).

Other than that, good luck with your new venture.

 

[Sgt_Cyrus]

Can't see anything wrong with any of your points, other than as a site you would not have a UKARA registration, unless you join UKARA as a site operator / retailer, so would not be able to get any whole RIFs through customs without it. Not sure of the requirements for joining, but no doubt others on here will be able to assist. If not, try giving them a call.

As to setting up the company, you would probably be advised to register for VAT, as even if you do not gross enough in the first year to be required to register (about £80K these days I think), you could still voluntarily register, which means you can offset the VAT you pay on imports and anything you buy in the EU against the sales / charges to make in the business. The other problems will be with the various legislation, other than VCRA, that you need to comply with as a business. You would do well to consult a solicitor and accountant before you decide to go ahead and spend any real money on setting this up, just to make sure you are fully aware of all the likely problems you might encounter.

Once you are satisfied that you are going ahead with your eyes open then consider setting up a Limited Company as a little bit of protection for your personal assets. You could either buy one "off the shelf" or have one set up specifically tailored to your needs (they tend to cost a bit more) but £500 ought to be enough to get you up and running (I set up companies all the time, but for clients of a firm of solicitors, so cannot help directly).

Other than that, good luck with your new venture.

Thanks for the input, we've already covered all the other aspects of the business and know what we're doing there, just the manufacturing and sale of RIF I was a bit unsure on, we'll be registering with UKARA as a site operator and a retailer. Thanks again and hope to see you at one of our event/sites when we're up and running.

 

[Tad]

To run a site, you also need to have Third party insurance i believe.

 

[RILiON]

To run a site, you also need to have Third party insurance i believe.

I may be wrong but as far as i knew airsoft sites aren't insured as in the eyes of the law an airsoft welt is an injury because it leaves a mark. That's why they make you sign in as a waver because they can't insure you. At least that's what we are told in the safety briefing.

 

[Tad]

More for civilian injuries occuring from the game if they walk onto it and such actually.

 

[Mack]

I may be wrong but as far as i knew airsoft sites aren't insured as in the eyes of the law an airsoft welt is an injury because it leaves a mark. That's why they make you sign in as a waver because they can't insure you. At least that's what we are told in the safety briefing.

Not 100% sure if sites definitly need insurance but without Insurance there is no defence against VCRA.

Defences to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act

3.—(1) It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a)the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;

(b)the purposes of display at a permitted event.

 

[skarra333]

Im no lawyer but understand that if a site lies to me and knowingly places me in danger (like telling me an area is as safe as can be, even though a day before they assessed a tree as mega-dangerous and about to fall), and I get hurt, insurance might come into it... Waivers don't excuse sites of all responsibilities-I don't think...?

 

[Sgt_Cyrus]

There is a specific insurance that you can get as a airsoft/paintball site, we've got that side of things covered as we ran a site previously for a different company. It's more the manufacturing and modification of RIF we were concerned about.

 

[Deek]

I may be wrong but as far as i knew airsoft sites aren't insured as in the eyes of the law an airsoft welt is an injury because it leaves a mark. That's why they make you sign in as a waver because they can't insure you. At least that's what we are told in the safety briefing.

Ouch... in that case find another site to skirmish at!

Even though airsoft can result in small injuries there should still be at least public liability insurance in place.

You basically sign a waiver to say that you accept certain risks, etc.

This is as ludicrous as sites who don't provide adequate first aid cover, and I have even heard of sites suggesting teams have their own first aiders...

 

[two_zero]

Starting a company

slightly off topic but... You got a business plan?

 

[RILiON]

Ouch... in that case find another site to skirmish at!

Even though airsoft can result in small injuries there should still be at least public liability insurance in place.

You basically sign a waiver to say that you accept certain risks, etc.

This is as ludicrous as sites who don't provide adequate first aid cover, and I have even heard of sites suggesting teams have their own first aiders...

Well in the eyes of the law airsoft is an extreme sport There for you accept the risks as you enter and sign in much in the same way and indoor skate park doesn't insure you as they know the things you are doing are too dangerous and no one would insure them for the sport they are participating in.

 

[Sacarathe]

Well in the eyes of the law airsoft is an extreme sport. There for you accept the risks as you enter and sign in much in the same way and indoor skate park doesn't insure you as they know the things you are doing are too dangerous and no one would insure them for the sport they are participating in.

Funny you should say, that, my family laughed at me when I told them it was considered this - though note I was not trying to impress them anyway.

 

[Sgt_Cyrus]

slightly off topic but... You got a business plan?

yeah, we were researching that part of the plan when I decided to clarify my understanding with the OP, but everything else we'll be doing is sorted. We're a registered company, and have our first event - https://www.facebook.com/events/591655387641176/ - coming up, with a permanent CQB site being negotiated.

 

[Deek]

Well in the eyes of the law airsoft is an extreme sport There for you accept the risks as you enter and sign in much in the same way and indoor skate park doesn't insure you as they know the things you are doing are too dangerous and no one would insure them for the sport they are participating in.

But that doesn't automatically exempt the site operators from any sort of liability.

For instance; the site (probably) won't be liable for a player sustaining an injury from a bb, but they will be liable for a play sustaining an injury from say part of the safe zone collapsing or a player sustains an injury from unsafe structures.

Yes, there are risks in this sport, but there are risks in other sports and organisers will have to have public liability insurance. A quick Google search for 'paintball public liability insurance' brings up lots of insurers that are willing to offer public liability for paintball as well as airsoft.

I think site operators might be getting confused with the classification as a 'extreme' sport. Lots of personal injury insurances don't cover in the even of an injury sustained during an extreme sport, but companies do offer personal injury insurance for such occasions. This does not mean that a site operator doesn't need public liability insurance as a minimum (as there are lots of other insurance products that a site may need).

 

[two_zero]

yeah, we were researching that part of the plan when I decided to clarify my understanding with the OP, but everything else we'll be doing is sorted. We're a registered company, and have our first event - https://www.facebook.com/events/591655387641176/ - coming up, with a permanent CQB site being negotiated.

Never mind if you're a registered company with a facebook page.. so long as you have a proper business plan so you wont go bust

well if the site is near London we might bump into each other some day^^

 

[Samurai]

As far as I know it's not the player who is insured. The site is insured. If you get injured you still won't get anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[skarra333]

If I rent safety goggles from a site that are defective, or get hurt because a Marshall was a pillock and the site is deemed liable, that's where insurance may come into it for the individual, not just the site - as I understand it.

 

[Deek]

As far as I know it's not the player who is insured. The site is insured. If you get injured you still won't get anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The site will need Public Liability Insurance. Even if you sign a waiver you can still claim against the operator's insurance if you injury yourself, especially if the injury is life altering.

Public liability is a bit of a minefield, which is why it is always recommended that businesses ALWAYS have at least Public Liability cover.

It will always be advisable that a site operator seek legal advice, especially in regard to injury waivers or acceptance or risk documents to ensure they are valid and enforceable.