Starter gun

[Gregatron]

Hey guys & gals,

I'm looking for opinions and advice on a starter gun. 

I'm thinking about this http://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-m4-m15-m16-variants/asg-armalite-m15-series-m15-operator-black.htm#.Wbk5wLJ96Uk

I like the M4 format, RIS rails are good, Mosfet is better.

Does anyone know of anything better that will fit the bill?

I've already looked at the G&G raider btw, and I think the ASG is better.

 

[EDcase]

I have this very similar CQB version and very happy with it so far.  Shoots well and has good weight even with poly receiver.

No mosfet tho.  (I rather spend less to start and then upgrade to a better overall system)

 

[AshOnSnow]

Starter gun wouldn't usually have a mosfet.

That's like saying "I'm looking for something for a first car like a fiesta or clio, preferably with a V8 and a carbon fibre chassis."

Airsoft is expensive, make sure you're happy with the game for a few months first with hire guns, or buy a starter gun like a Raider. Then worry about upgrades.

Oh and whatever you do, please don't buy a two-tone unless it's something like a good pistol that you can change the slide on later.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Ask Rock-climby-Dave for more info

If anybody should know he should, I think they have revamped their range to include a mosfet

Think the internals should be quite sound, the actual mosfet may not be an ultra-high stress mosfet

BUT if it is wired for a mosfet that will be a bonus for somebody not wishing to open up their gun straight away

Can't be no worse than G&G's mosfets and should be compatible with most GATE or even 3034 mosfets

so that is good news if the std mosfet ever craps out at some point.

(Fancy G&G ETU - you are stuck with it or partial rebuild to rip out poxy ETU)

I think some cheapo china mosfets crapped out under higher load due to cheap mosfet

(Had a cheapy Big Dragon mosfet board that just fried very quickly due to cheap china mosfet)

BUT I don't know how robust the mosfet module is though should be fine for regular gun

HENCE - ask Rock-climby-Dave or patrol base for more info

(a detailed review would great somebody please - I'm done buying guns for now)

Think I would be more tempted to go for this over a Nuprol if I'm honest

Sure the Nuprol has a quick change spring but the Nuprol with micro switch needs a mosfet more imho

(micro switches do burn out quicker than regular trigger switches)

If this gun has a basic mosfet out of box then if everything is alright I think I'd choose this ASG

Not sure if it beats a G&G Raider completely - think their receivers are still the best

But could be a worthy consideration imho due to mosfet for any non-techy new players

Could be easy to upgrade to a GATE ASR perhaps but unsure as I can't much info on wiring

Ask - Rock-climby-Dave (sorry if he now gets bombarded)

Maybe Patrol Base could do a review and tear down of this coz I'm kinda interested too ???

 

[Rogerborg]

Airsoft is expensive, make sure you're happy with the game for a few months first with hire guns, or buy a starter gun like a Raider.

Agreed, but rather than splashing out a princely £130+ on a Raider (or ASG or Nuprol or...), I've just bought the cheapest CYMA M.516 M4 for the pauperish sum of £75.  I imagine the G&G (or...) will be better, but not so much that I'd be able to take much advantage of it doing CQB, and everything in the CYMA should be upgradable if I stick with it.

At £20 gun-and-goggles hire per session every 2 weeks I'd have flushed that much before I had my UKARA ticket anyway.

On that...

Oh and whatever you do, please don't buy a two-tone

... eh, bit of isopropanol and a scrubbing brush.  The defence for transporting any gun (RIF or IF) to a skirmish serves as the defence for turning an IF into a RIF.

All that said, if we had any sense, would we be running around shooting each other with toy guns?  If you're grinning, you're winning.

 

[AshOnSnow]

Agreed, but rather than splashing out a princely £130+ on a Raider, I've just bought the cheapest CYMA M.516 M4 for the pauperish sum of £75.  I imagine the G&G will be better, but not so much that I'd be able to take much advantage of it doing CQB, and everything in the CYMA should be upgradable if I stick with it.

At £20 gun-and-goggles hire per session every 2 weeks I'd have flushed that much before I had my UKARA ticket anyway.

On that...

... eh, bit of isopronanol and a scrubbing brush.  The defence for transporting any gun (RIF or IF) to a skirmish serves as the defence for turning an IF into a RIF.

All that said, if we had any sense, would we be running around shooting each other with toy guns?  If you're grinning, you're winning.

I'm nobody to knock a CYMA - my main primary was a CYMA after I sold my R8-L. It was the cheapest metal body M4 that I could get my hands on, then I replaced some of the internals and did some work on the fixings to turn it into a full metal solid powerhouse. And it served me really well! For a first gun though, I think the G&G is the better option for 3 reasons: They're tried and tested and don't really require any maintenance, they're the best value-for-money, and they hold their value fairly well.

But the number of people there are trying to sell their two tone guns after they've got their UKARA, it's mad.

Apart from weapons though, the most I spent on gear was my eye pro and my comms - Bolle Raiders which were about £90, and Motorola T80 Extremes which were £80. Just to think, for that price I could have bought a whole new M4

 

[Sitting Duck]

The Cyma's are brilliant bang for your buck if you can get them for £70-£80

maybe up to £100 they are one of best cheapo guns to buy imho

When you go over that then a G&G at about £130 is superior

The ASG - if it has a basic mosfet and if it comes with the ASG/Ultimate gearbox is a big contender to the G&G

(note the tappet plate on the ASG/Ultimate may be shaved or have cut-outs like the Cyma v2 but no biggy)

You would probably pay a tech say £40 to supply n fit a basic basic mosfet to a gun most likely

and if the ASG gearbox is in there I'd rate it over the qwirky CYMA one

at least with ASG could take 13:1 gears without the modding on the re-enforced cyma gearbox

I mean you could get 2 x cm517's from TWG for this ASG

but the cyma is more plasticy, push on flash hider and plastic buffer tube - corners are cut

The ASG "could" be worth a look but can't give it a SD seal of approval coz not got one

Or play safe and go with G&G Raider

End of the day they are all just toy guns - most of us are no way as good as we think we are

So really it matters little as long as we have fun as big kids refusing to grow up I guess

 

[Rogerborg]

The Cyma's are brilliant bang for your buck if you can get them for £70-£80

Patrolbase are out of the real cheapies, but Taiwangun have them.

That way I figured it was that I could get a CYMA plus everything else I needed to get started for the price of a G&G plus battery and charger.  I might regret it later, but then again, how much can you lose on a £75 gun?

End of the day they are all just toy guns - most of us are no way as good as we think we are

So really it matters little as long as we have fun as big kids refusing to grow up I guess

Amen.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Cyma's are about best cheapo budget gun sub £100

considering the crap I and others have bought from JBBG - cyma's are a wiser investment

As for upgrading vs buying better that is always a toughy....

In hindsight unless you are sad/bored/trying to prove owt - just buy better guns as you go

than waste money/time on upgrades that often don't make it anything like TM or Krytac

but for the money even if the plastic receiver busts further down the line you still got a a few bits left

and deffo get your money's worth imho - not changed my opinion since I first ripped one open

slightly qwirky but if funds are tight then they will do you proud to get started with



If I had the spare cash I would get a ASG just to tear it apart and see how it compares £ for £

Could be a very nice ASG ultimate box with some nice bits inside but doubt if plastic receiver will beat G&G

atm think it could be worth a go and a possible competitor against the G&G starter guns

But then it is way more than Cyma and in the same price as a Raider so it should be

 

[Gregatron]

Thank everyone, this has been great so far.

I'd honestly discounted CYMAs as being "too cheap", you know the second cheapest bottle of wine logic

As to the G&G, i didn't like the fixed foresight on the raider......yes I know it can be changed relatively easily, my thinking with the ASG was it's cheap enough that I can drag it through the dirt while I'm a noob, but has good enough fundamentals that with a few mods it can be an intermediate gun for the future. 

All I've ever shot so far has been real steel or a friends GBB, super high spec M4. So I'm just worried about polymer guns falling apart...........hence the keep it (relatively) cheap to start.

 

[Rogerborg]

I'm not expecting great things from my CYMA, but if it empties a couple of high caps in the general direction that I'm pointing it, that'll do for my purposes.  Bear in mind though that I'm the sort that buys old motorbikes because they go wrong, in order to sort them.

 

[Albiscuit]

Id go for the raider, and mod that one in the future, its also cheap enough to replace after a year for something when you have a healthy budget and tinker with it as a spare....

 

[Sitting Duck]

You two are fortunate that you wasn't really stupid enough to buy a BullDog B500A1 from JBBG

Only a f*cking real idiot would waste his money on that thinking it might do

My son (duck jnr) got an SRC which was just about a starter gun

metal gearbox, but yeah olde two piece hop unit & top receiver with tabs that snap off

Old school TM style stuff but pass-able, in fact leagues above the crappy B500A1 waste of money

The Cyma's are better than the SRC & cost less - hence why I rate them as good cheapo guns

The G&G's have a sort of polymer receiver that flexes slightly than ultra rigid plastic

(I'm not a friggin' chemist or what not that all plastics are polymers or vice versa)

But imho the G&G with some flex may not be so brittle in cold weather it would snap/break so easily

There are other makes like ICS that are imho a very close second to G&G starter guns

(depends on model - some say better than G&G etc....)

Normally we don't say get a carbine coz you only moan about no rails to put your stuff on

(plus its front wired and a bit of care to avoid chaffing wires if you strip gun/hop unit etc...)

So in general a G&G Raider is a good gun to consider/recommend.....

still to this day can't work out why they don't make a medium 297/300mm Raider

Short is 233mm & Long is 357mm - but hey ho

Yes Carbine/Raider has sight cast on outer barrel - but often if you mount a sight/scope

you will find you may need a riser if using a full face mask to get ya face/mask in there

Personally I love the G&G CM18 or the way too loud FireHawk but its more money

So its a case of where do you start & where do you stop so to speak....

Same as "upgrades" - 90% of which you don't really need

AND if you are both sad & stupid  - you end up with gun like Trigger's broom...

 

[Rogerborg]

I was very tempted by the Firehawk for CQB, it looks (and sounds) like a real hoot. But then I remembered that the CYMA is £64 cheaper, which bought me a CM.123 pistol and a hacksaw blade.

 

[Sitting Duck]

FireHawk was my first RIF when I got UKARA'd

but it is a loud bitch - no it does get on your nerves and your team mates all day

especially indoors CQB - jeeez, can also give you position away with it's unique CRACK

Lovely gun - still love it, can get on your nerves a bit but being married you get used to stuff like that

+1 for hacksaw - though think they aren't allowed for knife/melee kills

rubber knives, chickens & bizarre marital toys are usually used

(plus a squeaky pink piggy by Reading's ninja at the Mall - aka ImTriggerHappy)

 

[Rogerborg]

+1 for hacksaw - though think they aren't allowed for knife/melee kills

rubber knives, chickens & bizarre marital toys are usually used

(plus a squeaky pink piggy by Reading's ninja at the Mall - aka ImTriggerHappy)

I've got a rubber wrench bookmarked on eBay for my pending Bob the Builder loadout.  Can we frag it?  Yes we can!

Might have veered a teeny bit off topic here.

 

[Gregatron]

I don't understand the hate for upgrading basic guns. What's the harm in putting a high spec Hop up in a basic gun? Not like you can't take it out again

 

[Sitting Duck]

I don't understand the hate for upgrading basic guns. What's the harm in putting a high spec Hop up in a basic gun? Not like you can't take it out again

I'll answer that with a boy racer car example....

Ya get ya Fiesta 1.1L and you think you are gonna pimp that mother right out....

You spend ages looking at new engines, chips, brakes, suspension, alloys etc....

Then you eventually go and buy a Fiesta ST or Golf GTI or wtf a BMW if ya loaded

Same meat different gravy on a cheapy gun - it will still be a Raider

It will most likely cost you more in the long run if factor in time as well as if you know where to source bits at good price

Will they work - trust me, more often than not TM compatible does not mean TM compatible

if you are lucky it means TM compatible-ISH !!!!

How far do you go, how much you spend, did you REALLY notice the difference and it is still a cheapy gun not a Krytac or TM

Like the boy racer  many (myself included) think we HAVE to upgrade $hit asap

the Kiss FM sticker must be fitted, the tints on windows, the crappy cheap chinese In Car Entertainment is a must

(even though it distorts the crap you are playing but who cares feel that baaaasssssss)

Alas - we have all been there and wouldn't listen, it is just something in the male genes I think

Seriously - use it for a while, if somethings goes tits up THEN replace bits n bobs if you need to

Or if it is a write off or falling to bits - then chuck the Fiesta 1.1L or cheapo gun and buy a better one

Nowt wrong looking to change a few bits, first get the hang of the hop adjustment, clean barrel

ensure nub sits in center than lop sided etc.....

USE DECENT BB'S - even a prommy won't correct $hit bb's in flight

Still not happy, try another bucking/barrel/hop combo

maybe build another barrel/hop first it might be better/worse

(madbull barrels & prowin hops are not the walk on water upgrades many think they are)

You "could" strip the old unit & rebuild

but say you tear the bucking, the cogs/circlips all fly off lost in the carpet

it all shoots crap & 50fps less than the old original barrel/hop - two days before game day

Hence consider build a new complete unit perhaps or leave it if unsure

(not wise to mess with stuff a day or two before a game day)

Like all upgrades it is a question how far do you go

personally I wish all manufactures did a few basics like AoE & deans than small tamiya

But hey ho - I moan about everything

Just DON'T fall into the new player upgrade trap is what most of us are saying - that's all

 

[Sitting Duck]

Small possible update - if anybody is interested.....

From what I can make out the budget ASG will not have an ASG/Ultimate gearbox in

(to be expected as ASG/Ultimate is oem Lonex and that gearbox complete retails @ £100)

Instead they are very very likely using an E&C gearbox EC-MP023 instead

Like the ASG/Lonex it is not re-enforced at the rear (means higher speed gears go straight in)

(Don't know why they make a big deal of rear re-enforcement - the front cracks not the ar$e of a box)

It has a regular tappet plate (good) - Lonex has some cut-outs like the cyma tappet

It uses a nice "non-prong'd" trigger switch (good) & not need a copper plate (unlike cyma/src/lonex etc..)

8mm bearings still used - hmmm think if I was going nutz on hi-speed gears I drop a couple of bushings in

Standard gears - china gears 4 AR latch lugs on bevel - should be ok but depends how they roll

Standard piston with 1 metal tooth, basic cheapy piston head & cheapy spring guide

Unsure what cylinder head is like or if nozzle has o-ring (doubt it as it is a much cheaper box)

Mosfet is wired with two thin signal wires to trigger (supply + signal)

2 main wires run direct to motor - could be a slightly slower torquey one used in Classic Army guns

BUT - at the rear of the mosfet is deans connector, which then has a deans to small tamiya lead on it

(if deans plug is just about long enough then that will be ideal as it is)

Also worth noting that the gun comes with a 8.4v or 9.6v battery & charger (cheapo crap one most likely)

But does get you started, bear in mind with a G&G there is no battery or charger so add £30 onto G&G

So this is like getting a cyma - perhaps slightly slightly less plastic (buffer tube) and fitting a mosfet to it

Thus you arrive at a tarted up Cyma type gun, with the mosfet already installed for you

(which is what I said about the CM515 - if you ain't techy minded get a G&G or perhaps now this ASG)

NB: I do not know all this 101% for sure but from what I have found and been digging it seems to be what's inside

So depending on your budget:

under £100 - get a Cyma

£130 limit - this ASG could work out ok it SEEMS !!!!

£160 or so is what a G&G will cost you if you need charger & battery etc.....

I'm trying to decide if I should buy one to see for sure what they are like and how they run

what you could do with it for upgrades - most likely you can do whatever you want I guess

NOPE - not getting one, my UKARA has expired it seems :mellow:

Well at least I don't need to try & find another hiding place from Mrs Duck 

But remember it is cheapo plastic gun and remember this fact if you are thinking of sinking money into it

(personally I'd still rather sink a little money into a G&G as a G&G is easy to sell on or known make)

Other places are trying to flogg this gun at £150+ - hmmm not sure

but £130 it could be worth a look as a starter due to the mosfet and the included battery from description

(probably crap but it does get you going)

Saying that a CM517 is a Raider clone (cheap plasticy Raider clone) but front sight comes off & a mid 295mm barrel

This CM517 is quite sturdy - no wobbley barrel bits like you sometimes get on a cheap longer carbine M4

Can be made to sing a bit - but Cyma box has a few qwirks but nothing major

G&G - well they sell these by the lorry load and they are nice to work on

perhaps a little more but still a great gun to use, run well with little fuss and easy to sell if you upgrade

Lovely receivers plus a good few variations so you are bound to find a G&G you like if you can stretch to it

 

[Gregatron]

Small possible update - if anybody is interested.....

From what I can make out the budget ASG will not have an ASG/Ultimate gearbox in

(to be expected as ASG/Ultimate is oem Lonex and that gearbox complete retails @ £100)

Instead they are very very likely using an E&C gearbox EC-MP023 instead

Like the ASG/Lonex it is not re-enforced at the rear (means higher speed gears go straight in)

(Don't know why they make a big deal of rear re-enforcement - the front cracks not the ar$e of a box)

It has a regular tappet plate (good) - Lonex has some cut-outs like the cyma tappet

It uses a nice "non-prong'd" trigger switch (good) & not need a copper plate (unlike cyma/src/lonex etc..)

8mm bearings still used - hmmm think if I was going nutz on hi-speed gears I drop a couple of bushings in

Standard gears - china gears 4 AR latch lugs on bevel - should be ok but depends how they roll

Standard piston with 1 metal tooth, basic cheapy piston head & cheapy spring guide

Unsure what cylinder head is like or if nozzle has o-ring (doubt it as it is a much cheaper box)

If I get an ASG I will rip her to bits to confirm my suspicions but tried to shed a little light on what is inside

(lol - just noticed I said a small update - that's funny)




9

This is fantastic, and really answers some of my questions about whether or not to buy this over the G&G...........its all moot til I get ukara anyway.

I should probably mention that my oldest friend is a professional gun smith, and can fix/mod pretty much anything, and will work for beer