Rifle choice

[Halo]

btw I appreciate every comment you guys have sent, great forum really nice vibe which is kinda refreshing .  I’m a straight talker and can take it coming to me, respect it more even but some places are really toxic I’ve found for some reason 

 

[concretesnail]

Kwa used to have the last round stop function and recoil but they drooped the cutoff feature to free up the space to put the electronic triggers and mosfets into their gearbox design.

The g&g has the stop function but it is only in the tr16 g2 models, which off the top of my head, are the 308 variants and the knights sr series. They don't have the recoil function though in those ranges.

If recoil is a must have then I'd look at adding the stop function to the kwa, it's not the hardest thing to do but would require patience and opening up the gearbox; fitting a leviathan mosfet, setting it up, possibly an external control if you wanted that or having somebody do it for you. It would be something a few hundred quid to do.

 

[Halo]

Kwa used to have the last round stop function and recoil but they drooped the cutoff feature to free up the space to put the electronic triggers and mosfets into their gearbox design.

The g&g has the stop function but it is only in the tr16 g2 models, which off the top of my head, are the 308 variants and the knights sr series. They don't have the recoil function though in those ranges.

If recoil is a must have then I'd look at adding the stop function to the kwa, it's not the hardest thing to do but would require patience and opening up the gearbox; fitting a leviathan mosfet, setting it up, possibly an external control if you wanted that or having somebody do it for you. It would be something a few hundred quid to do.

Awesome working on a T10 deal as we speak! 

 

[Rogerborg]

btw I appreciate every comment you guys have sent, great forum really nice vibe which is kinda refreshing .  I’m a straight talker and can take it coming to me, respect it more even but some places are really toxic I’ve found for some reason 

We're quite friendly here, and where we disagree, it's generally respectfully, understanding that there's no single right answers.

And there are few wrong answers or dumb choices either, because spending even three figures on any toy gun for playing pretend soldiers is such a daft thing to do in the first place.  Whatever puts the biggest smile on your face is the right choice for you, that's the only criteria that really matters at the end of the day.

I would steer clear of VFC, though. The sweary tech in that video up-thread, Luke at Negative Airsoft, seems to spend half his time sorting shagged-from-new VFCs.  Lovely externals, but the internals seem to be either peaches or lemons.

 

[concretesnail]

"Smile on your face...." that's right in the money as tonwhat counts.

I'd so second the steering clear of vfc unless you want to git something and start again internally.

 

[Halo]

Tech guy at my local shops been at it 30 years and kinda recommended the T10…..sounds like it ticks all the boxes.

He did warn me off Tokya Murai though saying there are some reliability issues, I guess both camps could probably share experiences, I’ll defo not get the VFS samurai, shame as it only weighs 2.6kg and I like how they stripped some stuff back.

Ps sorry if I don’t reply again tonight, the forum has said I’ve reached my limit for today! All of 5 posts or something lol ?

Pss if anyone is selling anything decent or knows someone and near to Leeds send me a DM cheers 

 

[Rogerborg]

Tech guy at my local shops been at it 30 years

And the 2nd half of Negative Airsoft's workload are guns that have been worked on by other "tech guys".

One thing about the KWA T10, I've spotted some sellers saying that they come in at "~380 - ~400 fps", which (rant about fps vs Joules aside) means they'll need to be down-sprung for UK use.  Not just to come down to site limits of 1.1 - 1.2J, but legally as well, since anything capable of auto and over 1.3J ("375fps" in old money) is a Section 5 prohibited firearm, not an airsoft gun.  If I were paying that much for one, I'd want to be sure that I wouldn't have to pay even more to have it re-sprung.

The only reliability issues I've heard of with Tokyo Marui guns are when folk (owners or techs) meddle with them in some way, or (for the GBBs) run them on higher pressure gas than they're made for.

That's not to say that you can't get a great VFC or a stinker of a TM, but TMs are Japanese made for the Japanese market, and have traditionally been the yardstick for reliability - if left alone.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Tech guy at my local shops been at it 30 years and kinda recommended the T10…..sounds like it ticks all the boxes.

He did warn me off Tokya Murai though saying there are some reliability issues 

Tech guy is an fucking idiot then.

He is pushing you towards the kwa as they probably get a better mark up them than they do the TM (if they sell the the TM at all)

Haven't had my hands on the newer kwa's but the old ones regularly had problems, nice guns but not as reliable as most TM guns.

 

[heroshark]

Early vfc aks where not bad apart from the self shimming gb's but that was easily remedied. Loved my old 74u.

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

maybe I'm a seriously odd dude. 

As a purveyor of airsoft tuning bits that actually knows what the fuck you're on about, I would say 'almost uniquely odd' at the very least.  ?  

 

[heroshark]

As a purveyor of airsoft tuning bits that actually knows what the fuck you're on about, I would say 'almost uniquely odd' at the very least.  ?  

I'll wear that badge with pride

 

[Halo]

Tech guy is an fucking idiot then.

He is pushing you towards the kwa as they probably get a better mark up them than they do the TM (if they sell the the TM at all)

Haven't had my hands on the newer kwa's but the old ones regularly had problems, nice guns but not as reliable as most TM guns.

He has TM in stock, doesn’t have KWA so not sure about that one….

Guys which TM’s compare to the Ronin T10 just so I have more options?  Seems some to buy the KWA but prefer the feel of the TM, I’ve never held a KWA as nowhere has them

 

[Rogerborg]

I'll wear that badge with pride

 

[concretesnail]

He has TM in stock, doesn’t have KWA so not sure about that one….

Guys which TM’s compare to the Ronin T10 just so I have more options?  Seems some to buy the KWA but prefer the feel of the TM, I’ve never held a KWA as nowhere has them

Visually the delta recon is the most similar but if you want an m4 opposed to 416, the mk18.

The kwa has harder kick than the tm, and will have higher power out of the box, though it might still need a rubber change for our climate.

The tm has the stop on empty function whe using the correct magazines.

 

[Halo]

Thanks guys so far, I’ve lost lots of sleep desperately trying to get a fun ready for tomorrow (once I’m set on a mission that’s it!), I did have one sorted for a T10 but they guys gone AWOL all of sudden, maybe that may change today although I’ve been looking at other guns now…

Have to say guys are Fubar Bundy are epic, really helpful shame they don’t have the T10 in or I’d have snapped that up.

Ive bought some clothes from a local surplus military place, incidentally it was right next to a place called Foundry in leeds, grabbed goretex set and a a wind stopper set them of all things some black German boots, initially I took one look and was like yeah right lol but then I put them on and thought oh, these are nice plus reduced ankle breaking, bonus

The choices I’ve been looking for are

1. KWA T10

2. TM MK18 Mod 1

3. TM 416 Delta Custom

In this case, buying a new T10 is practical, maybe the special is the best value for the upgrades given the trigger and gate install, the TM’s they sound like they need the £250 upgrade option to bring up the FPS and a few other things and then people claim this is what causes them to break at times later on….it’s bonkers that you pay £550 and then need £250 more on top then another £250 for basic attachment.

Trouble is I can’t give money away to procure the TM10, the other ones are a little easier, some shops do have them.

I don’t know what is better between the TM stuff, I know the 416 is heavier and the MK18 is labelled a CQC weapon.

All that said another tech at a different shop said not to chase FPS all that much, some rifles shoot equally as well as bigger ones.

Atm there are some interesting used TM upgrades options, I’m seeing some selling for 50% RRP overall and some trying to get close to original price….what’s a typical % off RRP would you say (just wondering for when I put offers in)

And lastly, is it worth buying a used or for a first weapon should I just hold my water and order a T10 and wait a few weeks?

 

[concretesnail]

Used guide is two thirds of retail, ish. some things hold more value than others and condition plays a significant part.

The tech who mentioned not chasing fps is on the right track.

I've seen stock TMs perform better than cheaper rifs with all but the kitchen sink thrown at them.

With the TM you know all the parts go together well and you should be able to lift a .28g bb consistently, though you time to target will be a little longer, although that matters less at closer ranges. the higher fps does mean faster but it doesn't mean control.

in terms of what to go for I'd suggest you try and get hands on with rifs you fancy and go from there. If you like the feel TM recoil and function then rails, grips, stocks etc can be changed without performance changes.

 

[Rogerborg]

.it’s bonkers that you pay £550 and then need £250 more on top then another £250 for basic attachment

You don't need to spend more than the base price.  I'm going against my own principles here, as I consider stock TMs to be piss-weak at about 0.72J ("280fps") and wouldn't be satisfied with that. But plenty of owners have convinced themselves that's they're sufficient for woodland.  And it is true that shot-to-shot consistency is critical for effective range.

However, I'll re-iterate the (quite serious) point of that video I posted earlier, and its part 2, that a cheap CYMA, cleaned and fed 0.28g BBs, will shoot pretty much as well any other airsoft gun, and a lot better than some that cost many times more, "upgraded" or otherwise.

Everything beyond that is down to how it makes you feel based on its construction and features, and that's highly subjective.  If you need recoil and bolt lock, you need them, but you're sharply limiting your choice.

On where to buy and how much to pay, as you've found, stocking (and re-stocking) is dire in the UK at the moment.  I wouldn't trust any promises about future availability, and I certainly wouldn't put a penny down in advance.  Right now, I'd only buy new from stock, and at the first hint of trouble from a retailer, I'd fire in with a chargeback.

That also means that used prices are all over the place.  Typically it has been 2/3rd of new, with "upgrades" and extras generally adding little extra value.  But when it's a used gun or nothing, that puts more power in the hands of sellers.

Buying used is fraught with hazards.  "Upgrades" might mean "meddled with it, wrecked it, gave up".  And there are some rogue sellers out there flipping boneyard junk, or outright scamming.  Approach with considerable caution and if at all possible buy face to face and after trying it out.

I'm aware this is all coming across as a bit negative, but I'd hate to see you get taken for a ride on your first purchase.  What I'd actually stress is that you can have a great day with just about anything that shoots BBs vaguely downrange, as long as it does so reliably, so I'd urge not over-thinking it, or trying to get the perfect forever-gun first time out.

 

[Halo]

You don't need to spend more than the base price.  I'm going against my own principles here, as I consider stock TMs to be piss-weak at about 0.72J ("280fps") and wouldn't be satisfied with that. But plenty of owners have convinced themselves that's they're sufficient for woodland.  And it is true that shot-to-shot consistency is critical for effective range.

However, I'll re-iterate the (quite serious) point of that video I posted earlier, and its part 2, that a cheap CYMA, cleaned and fed 0.28g BBs, will shoot pretty much as well any other airsoft gun, and a lot better than some that cost many times more, "upgraded" or otherwise.

Everything beyond that is down to how it makes you feel based on its construction and features, and that's highly subjective.  If you need recoil and bolt lock, you need them, but you're sharply limiting your choice.

On where to buy and how much to pay, as you've found, stocking (and re-stocking) is dire in the UK at the moment.  I wouldn't trust any promises about future availability, and I certainly wouldn't put a penny down in advance.  Right now, I'd only buy new from stock, and at the first hint of trouble from a retailer, I'd fire in with a chargeback.

That also means that used prices are all over the place.  Typically it has been 2/3rd of new, with "upgrades" and extras generally adding little extra value.  But when it's a used gun or nothing, that puts more power in the hands of sellers.

Buying used is fraught with hazards.  "Upgrades" might mean "meddled with it, wrecked it, gave up".  And there are some rogue sellers out there flipping boneyard junk, or outright scamming.  Approach with considerable caution and if at all possible buy face to face and after trying it out.

I'm aware this is all coming across as a bit negative, but I'd hate to see you get taken for a ride on your first purchase.  What I'd actually stress is that you can have a great day with just about anything that shoots BBs vaguely downrange, as long as it does so reliably, so I'd urge not over-thinking it, or trying to get the perfect forever-gun first time out.

Used guide is two thirds of retail, ish. some things hold more value than others and condition plays a significant part.

The tech who mentioned not chasing fps is on the right track.

I've seen stock TMs perform better than cheaper rifs with all but the kitchen sink thrown at them.

With the TM you know all the parts go together well and you should be able to lift a .28g bb consistently, though you time to target will be a little longer, although that matters less at closer ranges. the higher fps does mean faster but it doesn't mean control.

in terms of what to go for I'd suggest you try and get hands on with rifs you fancy and go from there. If you like the feel TM recoil and function then rails, grips, stocks etc can be changed without performance changes.

Great points from you guys as usual!  
 

Forever gun is the DAS I think, but I’ll not buy this as I’ll wreck it until muscle memory and experience is built up due to being a baby doing mongy stuff!

Used market is weird, there are guns I like but there always a million miles from me normally ?, I’m guessing Leeds is popular for this sport.  
 

I can’t try all the guns sadly there almost mythical; I am about to visit another shop to see what they have now though.  
 

Interesting to hear stock TM can be better than upgraded, sounds back to front but if it ain’t broke don’t  fix it is probably quite relevant here, it’s not a sniper rifle but I am I’m interested in lots of effective range, the DAS sounds nice for that, nearer 90m instead of around typical 60 (I’m quoting off others!)

The lock stop I can live without, that said Fubar showed me a gun with this working and it was actually quite good, that little click to go again I got some satisfaction from!  I can’t be air firing though so that’s one thing I’ll address if I get a T10.

There are the odd upgraded 416 or Mk18 but after hearing that can be a bad thing might not be an idea, even if it’s a £650 upgrade….this brand sound a complex option.

ps why would this be 280 FPS  

 

[Rogerborg]

Interesting to hear stock TM can be better than upgraded

I mean that stock is better than badly "upgraded".  I keep quoting that because it's what you'll see claimed a lot in adverts, but it doesn't really mean much other than that the owner has spent more money (and might think they can recoup it).  Personally I wouldn't touch a TM recoil because they shoot weak as stock and don't seem to enjoy having even spring changes.  However, they have lots of happy owners, and presumably they aren't all kidding themselves, so please don't pay too much attention to my aversion.

the DAS sounds nice for that, nearer 90m instead of around typical 60 (I’m quoting off others!)

I think this is the third time it's been said, but that's a risible fantasy claim.  There is no magic that can make a 1.1J airsoft gun shoot to 90m, let alone do so effectively, even with heavy BBs and perfect hop.  Honestly, airsoft physics is real physics.

Maximum range is limited by muzzle energy, and 90m needs 2J+.  Effective range will be somewhere less than that, down to getting your hop spot on, and consistency.

A lot of that is luck in what you actually get - Ex-Workmate Eddy's basic and completely stock G&G CM16, for example, is an absolute peach of an example: the shimming sounds spot on, he set the (basic dial) hop about three years ago and it's not budged a micron since, and it still shoots more consistently than any of my guns, stock or upgraded.

ps why would this be 280 FPS  

280fps with a 0.25g BB.  See http://www.coderedairsoftpark.com/pages/park-rules-and-hours/fps-calculator.php - that's about 0.91J, which would be about 310-315fps on a 0.2g, although you generally get some energy variance on different masses of BB.  I'd say that's sufficient for woodland, although I'm a bit of a whore for chasing site limits.

 

[Halo]

Okay cheers guys, my brand new KWA Ronin T10 comes on Tuesday I could only order the tan but the shop will paint it inclusive for me

Any advice on mosfets or other things I need?  I tried the flip out sights but all I could see was ghosting!
 

I also bought a G17 today and some gear such as helmet, mesh (covers the ears but the circular shape isn’t comfy at all) Zulu thermal Goggles, I also bought Helikon training mini rig as I liked it’s compactness although the rear straps could be better for tightening.

Yesterday I also bought goretex milicam trousers/shirt for £40 and some nine waterproof trouser/wind stopper jacket milicam for £30, all ex army issue but new.

probably need to work out fluids next

Im good to go for now pretty much