POSSIBLE RIF BAN

[K@rl]

Agreed if they were to tighten guns laws then it would most certainly blanket rifs aswell.

And as individuals there would be nothin we could do or no voice to show how responsible 99.9% of us our with our guns.

Who currently "runs" the ukara data base?

Y could this not be extended?

By self regulating we would have control over it otherwise we are goin to be force feed rules. And these kind of issues make great head lines for politicians.

10000 imitation firearms removed buy the current government waahhhoooo (probably via painting but u know how they like to lie)

Would also like to say that if it's ever proven that a rif has been used in a robbery then we are all screwed.

 

[Sacarathe]

Have you ever actually been to skirmish?

The most irresponsible players are usually late 20s to early 30s going through there I wish I was rambo phase. They are closely followed by the mid life life crisis group who are having one last stab at trying to be young.

The youngsters are usually the best behaved.

Anyway as Kurtz said above the whole topics a bust as not once is airsoft or airsoft weapons mentioned in the document.

Haha, I originally wrote 18-30, but editted as I thought I would be criticised for being too inclusive. I used irresponsible incorrectly, I should have said adolescent.

Would also like to say that if it's ever proven that a rif has been used in a robbery then we are all screwed.

Quite a few actually. But for the purposes of the crime its rarely a detail distinguished from use of a real firearm. You can commit armed robbery just by saying you have a gun.

 

[Colonel Kurtz]

The devil as always is in the details.

In Category C, the following points are added:
"5.
Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as
replicas

That tiny parts at the very end is what would essentially screw airsoft as we know it. Under EU law a Cat C firearm is

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration

1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

[SIZE=12pt]4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]You are then almost certainly into serial numbers, shotgun certificate style registration and all the other limitations that buying/selling/owning real firearms places on people[/SIZE]

Fortunately not;

This does indeed add 'replicas' to the list of weapons that can be defined as Cat C, however; there is still the clause at the end of the definition section in the original Annex I to Directive 91/477/EC part II stating;

For the purposes of this Annex objects which correspond to the definition of a 'firearm' shall not be included in that definition if they :

(a ) have been rendered permanently unfit for use by the application of technical procedures which are guaranteed by an official body or recognized by such a body ;

(b ) are designed for alarm, signalling, life-saving, animal slaughter or harpoon fishing or for industrial or technical purposes provided that they can be used for the stated purpose only ;

(c ) are regarded as antique weapons or reproductions of such where these have not been included in the previous categories and are subject to national laws.

So essentially this means that if you have a gun that can be defined under this section, as long as you can verify or have it verified that it cannot be modified/adapted into an actual bullet firing firearm, it's all good. The only point of this intended change is to make sure you can't get something that is capable of being adapted into an actual firearm outside of the procedures in place for attaining such a firearm.

So for airsoft guns, the government would query the manufacturers, or perform their own independent verification that airsoft guns can't be modified into an actual firearm, and then they would be considered exempt. America has already considered this, and airsoft guns are deemed not modifiable into an actual firearm.

 

[Yams]

I hope it is that clear cut.

I'm guessing your focus is on part a, if so then that's a very murky patch that you're getting into. Of course this is all theoretical and a proper investigation may change everything, but for the UK the best we have is the ACPO recommendations on lethality and where an airsoft gun would become a firearm. Was it 1.5J for auto and 2.5 for single shot? Not that it really matters for the purpose of this argument. We have the situation that above a threshold they are firearms, albiet unlicenced ones. That makes me ask the question how would you permanently alter an airsoft gun above those limits to be less?

Being based on UK law is the stumbling block here and I'd hope there might be some overriding EU consensus on airsoft guns being non lethal.

If the focus in on either parts b or c then the case is tissue thin at best.

 

[Colonel Kurtz]

It should be;

The proposal is divided into 2 halves; the first half explaining the purpose/aims and justification for the amendments, the second half being the amendments themselves. I get my interpretation more from this first section rather than my own mind or the actual wording of the directive itself;

In the first half it states one of the aims as being;

"Establishing common technical guidelines on the convertibility of alarm/signal weapons and replicas, by detailing the criteria which qualify alarm weapons and replicas as convertible and, thus, bringing them within the scope of the Firearms Directive"

So effectively they'll have to come up with a set of standards, and as long as airsoft guns aren't considered convertible, then we'll all be untouched.

In my mind an absolute worse case scenario is an element or two of some airsoft guns being considered borderline and having to be adjusted; like not being allowed a steel outer barrel and us having to have plastic ones or similar. But i seriously doubt that'll happen, none of the internals of an airsoft gun can be modified to fire a bullet, infact thanks to Tokyo Marui the general design of AEG gearbox is such that it isn't possible to make one with enough FPS to stand a chance of killing someone with a metal bb etc, nowhere near even the power of an air-rifle (10-12x the power of an airsoft gun). So essentially all we have is a metal/plastic object of the same dimensions. If you're going to have to make all the internals of a gun anyways, it'd be easier to build a bespoke casing for it, rather than use an airsoft one.

Personally i don't care, we'll always be able to have something that shoots a plastic BB. I've already got a Thundermall (permitted in various countries where RIF are banned). So for me my only issue would be if so many people rage-quit i've no-one to shoot anymore, and perhaps feeling abit shafted if i wasn't compensated for the RIFs i have to hand in. I'm sure the TA could benefit from absorbing all the milsimmers, and airsoft in general could benefit by loosing people with delusions of 'pro operator' and the attitude that seems to come with it (these are the two archetypes of airsofter i'm certain would quit on the spot)

 

[shortman]

The devil as always is in the details.

In Category C, the following points are added:

"5.

Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as

replicas

That tiny parts at the very end is what would essentially screw airsoft as we know it. Under EU law a Cat C firearm is

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration

1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.

2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.

3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.

4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

You are then almost certainly into serial numbers, shotgun certificate style registration and all the other limitations that buying/selling/owning real firearms places on people

I dint say they arnt mentioned. But they clearly state that rif's that could be converted to fire combustable projectiles etc etc. As i said in my early post. It does not effect airsoft guns. As you cant convert them to fire anything more. They are refering to movie props or emtyshell rif's etc etc. They are just trying to cover all agles with regaurds to producing an actual fire arm. Read the whole thing. Makes sense. Just doesnt effect us.

 

[K@rl]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SqvQFq65t7E

 

[Gaspod4933]

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership?recruiter=358489280&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

 

[Sacarathe]

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership?recruiter=358489280&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

Someone didn't read the 2nd post

 

[Yams]

I dint say they arnt mentioned. But they clearly state that rif's that could be converted to fire combustable projectiles etc etc. As i said in my early post. It does not effect airsoft guns. As you cant convert them to fire anything more. They are refering to movie props or emtyshell rif's etc etc. They are just trying to cover all agles with regaurds to producing an actual fire arm. Read the whole thing. Makes sense. Just doesnt effect us.

1h.
For the purposes of this Directive, "replica firearms" shall mean objects that have the physical appearance of a firearm, but are manufactured in such a way that they cannot be converted to firing a shot or expelling a bullet or projectile by the action of a combustible propellant.

Straight up seems clear that whatever is decided on this matter airsoft guns are exactly the type of thing that will be swept up in what happens. Now hopefully Colonel Kurtz will be proved right in airsoft kit being ruled out of any analysis, but thats no reason to sit idly by and just hope for that outcome.

edited for my rubbish post game spelling

 

[shortman]

The part you have quoted is merley the definition of what that will stand for when the words "replica firearms" is used in the directive. The whole directive is aimed at fire arms and anything that can be converted to be used as an actual fire arm. You have misinterpreted the above quote in the assumption that "replica firearms" are to be included in the tighter restrictions they are trying to impose.

 

[Yams]

The whole point here is that this is a massive ammendment to existing EU firearms legislation.

The part that affects us is that they are trying to add replica firearms to category C weapons. That would be a massive burden and potentially impossible to implement. If we are agreed that airsoft guns fall into the definition of "replica firearms" then please be specific on where I am misunderstanding things.

 

[Marco]

Hi guys,

an update from the European Airsoft Association

Airsoft players of Europe - this is it! This is the big push, this is where you can save airsoft in Europe or let it be crushed. As you probably already know, the EC has presented a proposal to amend the firearms directive. There's some really heavy handed stuff in the proposal, but the worst for airsofters is that they want ALL REPLICAS to be classed as firearms. This is going to make most airsoft replicas prohibited, make the few remaining ones licensed, and this will kill airsoft. This is how we fight it:

TASK 1: SEND LETTERS NOW! On the link below is a pre prepared letter which you can copy and send to your MEPs. Search on-line, find your MEPs email addresses, copy and paste this letter (and modify it however you like).

TASK 2: SHARE THE HELL OUT OF THE PAGE! Make sure your friends, everyone you play with and interact with knows about this draft letter, let the shops know, the sites, the forums, everyone! Too many people are in the dark about this sudden and huge problem.

TASK 3: TRANSLATE! We've started with the English version but within a week I would like to see the post available in all of the 23 recognised languages of Europe. If the letter is not available on the page in your language, translate it and email the translation to us ASAP [email protected] and we’ll add it to the site.

It would really help if you posted the replies you receive on this page https://www.facebook.com/groups/455851477935788/ or email them to [email protected] so we can see how things are going and spot supporters in particular committees.

Don’t forget to insert your name, and add your MEPs name. Don’t forget to add your address to the top if you are posting a letter.

Here’s the link to the letter:

http://www.euroairsoft.org/index.php/additional-documents/operation-mep

Dear INSERT MEP NAME HERE,

As a constituent, I would like to raise my concerns regarding the recent proposal to amend the so called firearms directive. Specifically Proposal COM(2015)750/F1, on Page 17 where it is stated

(13) in Annex I to Directive 91/477/EC part II is amended as follows:

(a) point A is amended as follows:

………

(iii) In Category C, the following points are added:

“5. Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as replicas;”

I am a hobbyist who enjoys ‘airsoft’ events in which opposing teams compete in military and law enforcement scenarios. These events require the use of relatively low powered airsoft replica firearms. These events are a commonplace, well-regulated and physically demanding team activity with many positives for the individual and society. There is also an industry surrounding the airsoft hobby which employs many people. The classification of replicas as category C firearms would destroy my beloved pastime.

If replicas became category C firearms it would mean that manufacturers, retailers and owners of these replicas would be subject to all the obligations of the directive. This disproportionate measure would mean that replicas would become restricted or illegal firearms in most countries due to local laws restricting automatic firearms and limiting magazine capacity. At best, some countries would allow some replicas to be serialised, held on a certificate and registered. Other parts of the proposal would simultaneously make internet sales illegal and ban firearms of military appearance. In essence, the vast majority of airsoft replicas would be banned and the few remaining ones would be heavily restricted or licenced to the point where it would not be worth the hassle of obtaining or owning one. The airsoft hobby would soon cease to exist and the industry would collapse (which would have been highlighted if the normal economic impact assessment had not been bypassed in the case of this proposal). Inevitably, many replicas would remain uncontrolled out of ignorance to the drastic changes, turning the owners into criminals.

The vast majority of replicas are in no way convertible to fire real ammunition. They have the appearance of a firearm on the outside but the type of replicas we use for airsoft do not have any components which would be useable in a firearm. No justification has been presented in the text of the proposal for the inclusion of replicas in the scope of the directive. Member states have not expressed any major problems relating to public order caused by the use of replicas nor have replicas been implicated in terrorist acts.

In fact, after an extensive study in 2010 (COM(2010)404) the European commission itself recommended that “replicas, with their various characteristics and purposes, should not be included in the field of application of Directive 91/477/EC (Firearms Directive), especially as those which can be converted to a firearm and therefore treated as one are now covered by Directive 2008/51/EC.”

I also believe that the category change will be impossible to implement. Most replicas do not have a serial number, and some are children’s toys. Replicas can be produced from almost any material by any person, for example by carving wood into the shape of a gun. I don’t think it would be possible to register and control such a broad category of items. The cost of serialising and registering all replicas would be enormous, as would be the compensation costs for confiscation of the many replicas which would become prohibited. By EU estimates there are hundreds of millions of replicas in Europe. The governments of Germany, Czech Republic and Austria have specifically objected to the reclassification of replicas, and I do not believe that the Police force will find the measure sensible, achievable, enforceable or a good use of resources.

I support sensible controls, such as ensuring that readily convertible replicas, alarm and signal weapons are classed as firearms. I support robust mandates to ensure standardised irreversible deactivation of firearms across the EU. What I don’t support is heavy handed curtailing of law abiding citizens pastimes under the guise of preventing terrorism.

Please seek the amendment of the proposal COM(2015)750/F1 so that replicas will not be classified as firearms by being added to Category C (Firearms subject to declaration) of directive 91/477/EEC.

Yours Sincerely,

YOUR NAME HERE

Like us on Facebook for more information as it comes in https://www.facebook.com/europeanairsoft/.

Matt Furey-King
President
European Airsoft Association

 

[Jedi_Master]

Another good reason to vote on leaving the EU.

 

[Aengus]

Hi guys,

an update from the European Airsoft Association

Airsoft players of Europe - this is it! This is the big push, this is where you can save airsoft in Europe or let it be crushed. As you probably already know, the EC has presented a proposal to amend the firearms directive. There's some really heavy handed stuff in the proposal, but the worst for airsofters is that they want ALL REPLICAS to be classed as firearms. This is going to make most airsoft replicas prohibited, make the few remaining ones licensed, and this will kill airsoft. This is how we fight it:

TASK 1: SEND LETTERS NOW! On the link below is a pre prepared letter which you can copy and send to your MEPs. Search on-line, find your MEPs email addresses, copy and paste this letter (and modify it however you like).

TASK 2: SHARE THE HELL OUT OF THE PAGE! Make sure your friends, everyone you play with and interact with knows about this draft letter, let the shops know, the sites, the forums, everyone! Too many people are in the dark about this sudden and huge problem.

TASK 3: TRANSLATE! We've started with the English version but within a week I would like to see the post available in all of the 23 recognised languages of Europe. If the letter is not available on the page in your language, translate it and email the translation to us ASAP [email protected] and we’ll add it to the site.

It would really help if you posted the replies you receive on this page https://www.facebook.com/groups/455851477935788/ or email them to [email protected] so we can see how things are going and spot supporters in particular committees.

Don’t forget to insert your name, and add your MEPs name. Don’t forget to add your address to the top if you are posting a letter.

Here’s the link to the letter:

http://www.euroairsoft.org/index.php/additional-documents/operation-mep

Dear INSERT MEP NAME HERE,

As a constituent, I would like to raise my concerns regarding the recent proposal to amend the so called firearms directive. Specifically Proposal COM(2015)750/F1, on Page 17 where it is stated

(13) in Annex I to Directive 91/477/EC part II is amended as follows:

(a) point A is amended as follows:

………

(iii) In Category C, the following points are added:

“5. Alarm and signal weapons, salute and acoustic weapons as well as replicas;”

I am a hobbyist who enjoys ‘airsoft’ events in which opposing teams compete in military and law enforcement scenarios. These events require the use of relatively low powered airsoft replica firearms. These events are a commonplace, well-regulated and physically demanding team activity with many positives for the individual and society. There is also an industry surrounding the airsoft hobby which employs many people. The classification of replicas as category C firearms would destroy my beloved pastime.

If replicas became category C firearms it would mean that manufacturers, retailers and owners of these replicas would be subject to all the obligations of the directive. This disproportionate measure would mean that replicas would become restricted or illegal firearms in most countries due to local laws restricting automatic firearms and limiting magazine capacity. At best, some countries would allow some replicas to be serialised, held on a certificate and registered. Other parts of the proposal would simultaneously make internet sales illegal and ban firearms of military appearance. In essence, the vast majority of airsoft replicas would be banned and the few remaining ones would be heavily restricted or licenced to the point where it would not be worth the hassle of obtaining or owning one. The airsoft hobby would soon cease to exist and the industry would collapse (which would have been highlighted if the normal economic impact assessment had not been bypassed in the case of this proposal). Inevitably, many replicas would remain uncontrolled out of ignorance to the drastic changes, turning the owners into criminals.

The vast majority of replicas are in no way convertible to fire real ammunition. They have the appearance of a firearm on the outside but the type of replicas we use for airsoft do not have any components which would be useable in a firearm. No justification has been presented in the text of the proposal for the inclusion of replicas in the scope of the directive. Member states have not expressed any major problems relating to public order caused by the use of replicas nor have replicas been implicated in terrorist acts.

In fact, after an extensive study in 2010 (COM(2010)404) the European commission itself recommended that “replicas, with their various characteristics and purposes, should not be included in the field of application of Directive 91/477/EC (Firearms Directive), especially as those which can be converted to a firearm and therefore treated as one are now covered by Directive 2008/51/EC.”

I also believe that the category change will be impossible to implement. Most replicas do not have a serial number, and some are children’s toys. Replicas can be produced from almost any material by any person, for example by carving wood into the shape of a gun. I don’t think it would be possible to register and control such a broad category of items. The cost of serialising and registering all replicas would be enormous, as would be the compensation costs for confiscation of the many replicas which would become prohibited. By EU estimates there are hundreds of millions of replicas in Europe. The governments of Germany, Czech Republic and Austria have specifically objected to the reclassification of replicas, and I do not believe that the Police force will find the measure sensible, achievable, enforceable or a good use of resources.

I support sensible controls, such as ensuring that readily convertible replicas, alarm and signal weapons are classed as firearms. I support robust mandates to ensure standardised irreversible deactivation of firearms across the EU. What I don’t support is heavy handed curtailing of law abiding citizens pastimes under the guise of preventing terrorism.

Please seek the amendment of the proposal COM(2015)750/F1 so that replicas will not be classified as firearms by being added to Category C (Firearms subject to declaration) of directive 91/477/EEC.

Yours Sincerely,

YOUR NAME HERE

Like us on Facebook for more information as it comes in https://www.facebook.com/europeanairsoft/.

Matt Furey-King

President

European Airsoft Association

Sent to my local MP, wonder how long he'll take to reply(if ever) h34r:

 

[proffrink]

He'll probably reply with: 'I'm your MP not your MEP', heh.

 

[K@rl]

Whilst I apriciate that having a black rif is tacticool I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the end of Airsoft. I find it very unlikely that there will b a blanket ban on Airsoft weapons but I can see them forcing two tone. I understand that for some this would be the end of the world but I play for fun, as do meny. And I wouldn't care if my gun was bright pink with yellow spots and int the shape of a cock. As long as wen I aim an shoot the bb goes where I want it to.

Very few paintball players use rif style markers and there sport has mass appeal.

It would be much easier to defend ourselves with one unified body that we all were a member of that we all funded to fight for our interested but like so meny things I have been involved with, ie fishing, paragliding, etc, it is very disjointed. There are so meny layers to the sport and one group Always looks down on another as a joke.

For me I hope we are able to maintain rifs. I am sure the rules with change and maybe for the better. But if they don't and we have to two tone or alter the aperience of our guns it won't bother me. I hope that we use that as a chance to take it to the mass market. Let milsim plays go there own way and get licence etc so they can play out there army fantasy and the rest of use will enjoy hurting each other.

For anyone reading this who owns/runs a site please don't assume that if this is enforced that it's all over because it's not. It's just another opertunity to increase your customer base. And if ur stuck for ideas as to how am sure I can help.

 

[Hef Legend]

I wonder how much airsoft sales have dropped since the EU sparked all of this, I'm sure lots of people have held of on purchases in case they get told that everything they own is illegal or some such nonsense.

I personally have held of on buying a new RIF, pending any news on this.

 

[proffrink]

Well chaps, if the new law covers the point of sale then under most circumstances they won't be able to make those old sales illegal and ask for our stuff back. Cleverly avoiding Ex post facto law is a pillar of modern legal systems but is also the reason why you can still buy 'pre-ban' automatic firearms in the US (if you have the money). Having said that, they could easily make gun ownership illegal in some other way by simply banning their transportation or use etc.

If this comes into action and it covers the ownership (again, not the sale) then the UK (and the rest of Europe) would be looking at a huge amnesty that's bigger than anything that's ever been done before. We're talking far, far bigger than Australia or Britain's voluntary gun surrenders and that's going to cost an absolute sh*tload of money and oversight. They are going to need to be super committed to do this on such a scale.

It's far more likely that - if this were to pass at all - that it would cover the sale of goods and not ownership.

I guess what I'm saying is use all of your Christmas money to horde guns like an American hordes ammunition whenever someone shoots up a school.

 

[djben9]

no harm in sending an email....

copy / paste job though ...

if all goes tits up and interest dwindles slightly, i can use the newly purchased chest rig for day trips with the kids....tactical food storage!