Noob Questions. Considering First HPA Gun

[Spartan09]

hi guys,

well, i really need to stop looking at YouTube reviews and browsing airsoft websites (except this one of course ? ), as i m now considering falling to the dark side and buying my first HPA gun...   kind of...

by kind of, i mean i am looking at the Tippmann M4 v2, the one that can run on CO2 OR HPA.  as i have never run an HPA system before, i want to check a few things before i take the plunge.  apologies if these questions have already been asked, but i did search the various threads before starting this ne with limited success.  initially i would be looking to run it as CO2 as i often play at sites that don't have HPA refill facilities, but later use it on HPA.

my questions are these:
1. what size air tank would i need to be able to last one, possibly two days airsofting? (i play at sites without HPA facilities, but do have a few dive shops and air rifle ranges near my house to refill between weekends)
1a. roughly how many shots would i get out of each size air tank if the gun is set up for equivalent of 350FPS, firing .25s or .32s
2. what is the best quality remote line to use?  
3. do i need any protective sleeves for the line?
4. can the HPA bottles be worn on your back inverted? (IE with the outlet pointing towards your arse, to allow the line to be clipped to my waist/belt to hopefully reduce snagging) 
5. are there any points on the gun that need to be focussed on more in terms of maintenance?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

i'm not an expert on the tippman systems so i stand to be corrected but isn't their co2 setup in the mag that uses a single capsule per mag insertion? i remember a fella showing me the setup and it seemed kind of dumb that removing the mag vents the capsule regardless of how much ammo has been fired.

however, for a conventional air line setup i've heard good reports from tippmann owners.

as for your questions i'll see what i can do:

1- depends on how trigger heavy you are, i found i could squeeze 12 mid-caps from a 2500psi fill on a 48ci tank, now that was with a polarstar and tippmans recoil system could use more air.

2-cant really comment for the tippmans, as they run full tank pressure rather than the regulated stuff i'm used to.

3- braided lines are a good idea, although i've seen plenty of folk running unbraided without any issues.

4- shouldnt think inverted would be an issue, i just stuffed mine in the back pouch of a smersh at whatever angle it wanted to sit at never had any problems.

5- again tricky as it's a tippmann specific thing, but i can't see their mechanical system being any harder to keep than a gbbr

by the sounds of it you might want to think about investing in a dive tank to refill from if you're wanting to use it in the assault role on a regular basis.

 

[Tommikka]

I know little on the specifics, but as @Adolf Hamster has mentioned and as per the video link below, for CO2 you fit a conversion kit (inlcuded) and the 12 gram Co2 cartridge just sits in the magazine.  It’s punctured when the magazine is inserted and has no seal. That means that if you play with a different weight BB than is chronoed by the site, or need to remove the magazine when leaving the game zone, etc then you will empty a whole co2 cartridge every time you insert and remove the magazine.

1) no idea.

For minimum visits to dive shops a large capacity 4500psi cylinder, such as 68ci or bigger  (if you can get 4500psi fills) will last longer, but will be big and bulky (and will cost around £150+)

An aluminium 3000psi 48ci cylinder is the best value for money (around £40) and is a reasonable size to wear

A compact aluminum 3000psi 13ci is even easier to carry, costs a similar price, but will give you about a third of the capacity.  (These compact aluminium’s are also legally exempt from hydro testing in the UK, so can be used ‘forever’ as long as it’s in decent visual condition.  Note some have hydro test schedule is marked on the cylinder in which case sites should abide by the markings)

2) I recommend a branded remote line rather than an unknown random Chinese one, and definatly not the thin microbore ones that sometimes turn up on eBay.

A remote line with an integral on/off slide check allows you to disconnect without having to reach around to the cylinder and turning off the remote lines screw 

Cheap remote lines could have poor machining quality resulting in an on/off slide having rough edges causing o-ring damage and leaks etc 

As the Tippman has an internal regulator you don’t need an extra airsoft inline regulator so can use ‘normal’ paintball remote lines 

3) a decent remote line intended for airsoft or paintball will survive game play.  If you want then you can cover it, but if it’s uncovered then you can always see if there is any damage 

4). There’s no problem with what way up an HPA cylinder is.  It’s just compressed air (at very high pressure) so it doesn’t care what direction it goes

5) no idea.  Check the manual and browse YouTube etc for peoples experiences with it

 

[jay1988]

So I believe the shot count is approximately  1000 with the 48ci tanks personally the co2 option is a waist of money in theory it's a good idea (if you have deep pockets ) personally  I'd stick to a tank and if you can grab a dive bottle that will see you through your weekend I've had the v1 and have a v2 currently good guns only real issue iv had they can be funny with what mags they accept

 

[Spartan09]

Thank you everyone for all your replies, i greatly appreciate it, and it makes me desire the gun even more ?

And i apologise for the incoming wall of text =P

Looking at the cost of various tanks and based on suggestions from @Adolf Hamster, @Tommikkaand @jay1988, i will probably go for a 48ci tank as it seems to be the best balance of cost and size...   i can always buy a 68 if needed..  and im glad to hear i should be able to invert the tank, as i was concerned that using the tank inverted could encourage moisture formed by the charge/discharge process to form and then get through the line and into the gun

20 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I dont mind the cost of CO2 capsules...  as i already have a CO2 air rifle and CO2 moscart shells as well, i buy in large bulk quantities to get economies of scale.... (currently have about 150 capsules in a box as we speak) 

and as you have a v2, would you mind DMing me (or even commenting here if allowed) as to your experiences using the rifle, and any quirks i should look out for, either co2 or hpa, as well as what mags you find work best for the HPA setup.  I always like to hear first hand reviews from other players who own guns i intend to purchase so i know what to look out for.

And i will definately look into a dive cylinder and adapters, if the ones i have are not suitable for filling HPA tanks

 

[Tommikka]

1)

I will probably go for a 48ci tank as it seems to be the best balance of cost and size...   i can always buy a 68 if needed.. 

2)

 im glad to hear i should be able to invert the tank, as i was concerned that using the tank inverted could encourage moisture formed by the charge/discharge process to form and then get through the line and into the gun

3)

For clarity, i was already looking at getting a branded line,  but wondered if there was a particular brand that is better quality/longer lasting/more durable than others.

4)

I realise that the mags will vent all co2 once the mag is removed, vmbut i dont think it will be a major issue, as the sites i regularly go to chrono everyones guns using the weight they use in game...  plus i like to fire many rounds to make sure everything is working, plus at 80 rounds i doubt i will regularly be returning to safe zone with full mags..  lol

I dont mind the cost of CO2 capsules...  as i already have a CO2 air rifle and CO2 moscart shells as well, i buy in large bulk quantities to get economies of scale.... (currently have about 150 capsules in a box as we speak) 

5)

And i will definately look into a dive cylinder and adapters, if the ones i have are not suitable for filling HPA tanks

1) for 48ci vs 68ci as an airsofter you (probably) won’t need to exceed the capacity of a 3000psi 48ci in a single game, so rather than upgrading later to a 4500psi 68ci you can still make your money go further by getting an extra 3000psi 48ci

You could have three cylinders at £40 each which make just £120 compared to a minimum of £150 for a 68ci

That’s 144ci for less money then 68ci

(Of course that means you are swapping cylinders at the safe zone, and assumes the site doesn’t have air fills otherwise you would just top up

The real advantages of 4500psi fills fibre wrap cylinders are:

50% more air if you get a 4500psi fill (For over 3 times the cost)

Modern paintball guns are efficient enough to easily shoot more paintballs then the player carries per game, airsoft bbs should be even more efficient.  You only get caught out if you can’t get the fills between games and to last a day

Curved base to roll in your shoulder when used fitted on gun as a stock

Ergonomics of the variety of shapes and sizes of 4500s.  To have it match your arm size etc when used on gun

Lighter when like for like. But a standard aluminium 3000psi 48ci weighs about the same as a standard fibre wrapped 4500psi 68ci.  Those who claim it is lighter are deceiving themselves.  If they want lighter then they need to use a small 4500psi 48ci or an ultralight fibre which costs more like £200

Any weight saving gives a fractional advantage when used on gun, that’s lost when wearing it and being tethered to a remote line

2) moisture isn’t really a problem with HPA (unless your compressor source is unfiltered - then you’re in a world of hurt)

The angle of co2 makes a difference, but 12 grams are too small to be an issue

if you were using the refillable co2 cylinders (don’t do it) then it would make a difference about what way up the cylinder is.  These can go liquid with sustained fire or in cold temperatures. Some early paintball guns were designed for this and worked better with liquid.  But most would freeze and damage o rings
You could get a ‘syphon hose’ to encourage it and ‘anti syphon’ to avoid it

Turn a co2 cylinder upside down and you get liquid co2’ from the bottom, use a syphon hose fitted in the cylinder and whatever way up the cylinder was it drained liquid from the bottom

Fit an anti syphon inside and that is a bent pipe.  Keep the cylinder horizontal the right way up and it only draws co2 as gas from the top

Remote line hoses also act as an expansion chamber and allow liquid co2 to return to gas before it gets to the gun

3) some remote line brands i would recommend off my head are Ninja, Guerilla air, Tipmann, Valken 

Some of these do microbores which ought to be fine and to a reliable standard, but i would always rather have ‘full bore’ and I’ve seen some Hong Kong microbores that I wouldn’t trust

But beware of getting ‘pro connect type’ remote lines by mistake.  These have an excellent self sealing quick disconnect valve, but are a totally different fitting to then standard nipple

4) as you’re aware of the need to vent on 12 grams with magazine replacement then that’s a call you can make.

They will cost more in the long run, but as you say with bulk buying the price is cheap enough

(Currently our 12 grams are sort of free as we bulk bought for an event we ran in 2014, so they have paid for themselves many times)

5) there are a couple of scuba fill adaptors about.

DIN type or A clamp

Its common that the A clamp is used for cascading fills from scuba to cylinder, but you would just need to confirm what’s right for your system 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Grumble grumble copv's grumble....

If you've drained a fully topped off 48ci in a single game then its probably time to take a break anyway.

Tbh i'd still say a single 48ci with a dive tank to fill from is the solution i'd go for.

 

[Spartan09]

well...   i did it..   i fell to the dark side...

i purchased this start up set, a molle pouch to carry the tank and 5 CO2 mags to get me going....  https://www.battlezoneairsoft.com/tippmann-m4-v2-cqb-airsoft-start-up-package.html

now i need to try and get the tank filled as soon as lockdown permits

DAMN YOU AIRSOFT MIKE!!!   XD

 

[Spartan09]

And shes arrived....

Unfortunately lockdown means dive shops etc are closed so i cant get HPA bottle filled, so have fitted the CO2 kit so i can test fire her tomorrow.

The guys at battlezone airsoft also very kindly threw in a bag of .3g tippmann bbs and 10 co2 capsules too ?

View attachment 67397

 

[alxndrhll]

Just going to throw this in as note to avoid potential disappointment when the time comes. It's not likely (read as 'I've never found') a dive shop that would fill 48ci tank, largely because they wouldn't have the correct fitting to do so. Hence most advising picking up a scuba tank with an adapter, partly so you can actually get it filled at a dive shop and partly because it just works out better in the long run for convenience/cost. Depending on the size expect a scuba tank plus relevant adapters to run anywhere between £150-200.

You mentioned air rifle ranges in your initial post, if you're against setting up your own refill station using a scuba tank you'd likely have more luck there than a dive shop.

 

[Spartan09]

Thank you for your message @alxndrhll, i have a scuba cylinder for my .22 air rifle, so it should be easy enough to get the relevand adapters, and it would make sense to have one set up to take on sites where there arent any HPA stations...

once air rifle ranges and airsoft shops are allowed to open again, then i will start making enquiries to find out where in my local area i could go to get a refill/ top off of the small tank, as well as getting my scuba cylinder retested and filled ?

 

[Monkman]

I bought a whole HPA setup when I got my MTW last week.  Unfortunately I cannot get the 7Ltr 300bar tank filled due to COVID.  So I ordered a 4500psi pump instead from Amazon.  Came today...easy to assemble and got cracking.  It does take a lot of pumps...probably 700+ to fill to 3000psi I've been told.  I'm at 2000psi atm, did it in 70-80 reps at a time...

I went for the big tank due to not wanting to run out of air on game days, plus when my buddies decided to join me in HPA World..I can fill their 48cl bottles as well.

View attachment 67456

 

[Tommikka]

I bought a whole HPA setup when I got my MTW last week.  Unfortunately I cannot get the 7Ltr 300bar tank filled due to COVID.  So I ordered a 4500psi pump instead from Amazon.  Came today...easy to assemble and got cracking.  It does take a lot of pumps...probably 700+ to fill to 3000psi I've been told.  I'm at 2000psi atm, did it in 70-80 reps at a time...

I went for the big tank due to not wanting to run out of air on game days, plus when my buddies decided to join me in HPA World..I can fill their 48cl bottles as well.

View attachment 67456

I’ll recommend getting a filter for the stirrup pump 

Something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303587840945

I’m not endorsing that seller, just an example of the type of filter required

 

[Jasongtr]

Hi there

im looking at getting a training AR15 style rifle for practical shooting not skirmishing, I’ve got a kriss defiance DMK22 so it’s a good idea to get a garden/range trainer

needs a slight blowback and prefer to run it on co2 even though I’ve got a dive bottle and a stirrup pump for an air rifle I have

whats the build quality and predicted longevity of these v2 Tippmann rifles, I know the co2 dumps when you remove the mag but that’s not an issue for me, I guess the only issue I foresee is on the training front is mag swaps won’t be realistic like the kriss is

cheets 

 

[Spartan09]

So I ordered a 4500psi pump instead from Amazon.

Yeah....   i think i will just wait until the local air rifle range opens again and get my dive cylinder and hpa bottle filled...  im too lazy for that pump, lol

whats the build quality and predicted longevity of these v2 Tippmann rifles

The build quality on the v2 feels very solid.  Obviously i havent had a chance to use it in anger yet, but from what i understand, just like any other GBB gun, as long as they are properly maintained, the tippmanns will last a very long time with minimal troubles.

from what i have read, you can fettle the mag well and mags so they arent so tight to remove if using in hpa mode, then you can have as close to realistic mag changes as possible, but i dont know if that would work with the plastic tippmann CO2 mags(again, i havent tried this myself yet, so dont quote me on it) the only thing that wouldnt be realistic is the bolt release button...  its just for show, and doesnt act on the bolt itself

 

[Captain Darling]

Just reading through this info and it’s very interesting. 
 

To the OP, how come you didn’t try a GHK M4 or AK running on liquid Co2 in the mag mod?  It’s very tidy, and with an NPAS it’s easy to adjust to site legal limits when the weather gets warmer. 
 

Devilhunter modification, it’s a very tidy solution and the gun looks very realistic.

 

[lukeB]

Tbh i'd still say a single 48ci with a dive tank to fill from is the solution i'd go for.

This is good advice, I keep the dive tank in the car but since I normally run a DMR I've never needed to top up during a day.

Take that big dive tank into the safe zone and half the field will be begging for air