My First Build!

[Sitting Duck]

Thank you! And as far as the asg combined with 12:1 goes, would that cycle efficiently with no precock or ab required? Or would modifications need to be made? Or is that irrelevant if I'm using a leviathan or titan? 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

 

[Lex Dangler]

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

At 20rps you shouldn't need AB and you would tweak the pre-cock if required,

when you experiment with settings for optimal response/preference.

(Using some bells/whistles if required)

The torque ASG will fire the 12:1 no problem even with a fair bit of pre-cock,

to give great response using features etc...

End of the day the slightly quicker 13:1 SHS/Rocket will work also,

Just using the torque ASG on 12:1 to keep amps low,

pairing them up for best combo imho,

But end of day either will work fine, depends on what you seek in each gun.

And like I said any difference between two options is almost negligible,

All this crap is merely a suggestion - pairing shit up & all that end of day,

But achieve similar builds around 20 mark.

Others and/or ask me on a different day, on a different gun/build,

I might go with 12:1 SHS if seeking the extra rps,

But think if I had to make 2 similar decent snappy guns then I'd be inclined,

to go ASG 12:1 etc...

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in so much detail, the information is very much appreciated and will be utilised! 

Changing the subject slightly, regarding cylinder sets, I have all the parts to build one for gun number two but they're from different manufacturers and I've read that matching parts of the same make will give a better result. To give an idea I have shs piston, unknown piston head, lonex cylinder and maxx cylinder head, will these work well together? Or would I be better off buying the necessary parts of one of those brands to make a set? 

 

[Davegolf]

RE trigger response, the torqueier motor is going to get up and go quicker from a semi auto point of view.

All other things kept equal.

Matching parts is utter bullshit, use whatever parts combo yields the best fit/tolerance/air seal/performance.

11.1V is going to push it I think, you’ll be right on the 25RPS tipping point, and will need AB at that point for sure.

If you want a semi only gun go 25RPS for the trigger response.

Make sure to give some fresh air to the motor for heat dissipation if you’re going to run it hard semi spamming.

If you are building for field use, stick to 7.4V, the ROF will be much more useful accuracy and ammo conservation wise, plus you won’t be gunning the internals so much.

PS if you are buying Gucci guys I find Lonex to be the best of the bunch performance wise for cyl heads, pistons, nozzles etc.

I really like LPE piston heads.

ICS or SHS pistons are great.

Def’ get some Airlab Sorbo in there if you go 11.1V route.

 

[Lex Dangler]

RE trigger response, the torqueier motor is going to get up and go quicker from a semi auto point of view.

All other things kept equal.

And that would be the asg? 

Matching parts is utter bullshit, use whatever parts combo yields the best fit/tolerance/air seal/performance.

I did wonder! That's good to know, thank you ? 

11.1V is going to push it I think, you’ll be right on the 25RPS tipping point, and will need AB at that point for sure.

If you want a semi only gun go 25RPS for the trigger response.

Make sure to give some fresh air to the motor for heat dissipation if you’re going to run it hard semi spamming.

If you are building for field use, stick to 7.4V, the ROF will be much more useful accuracy and ammo conservation wise, plus you won’t be gunning the internals so much.

Yeah, I think I might save playing with 11.1 for a later date. I'm thinking of getting hold of the biggest 7.4 30c that I can fit in the stock, I think 3300mah and running with the 12:1s to achieve the trigger response and also get decent rof for when required, also so I don't have to use any AB or precocking hopefully?I'd rather not over work the motor or leave the spring compressed when I'm not using it. 

PS if you are buying Gucci guys I find Lonex to be the best of the bunch performance wise for cyl heads, pistons, nozzles etc.

I really like LPE piston heads.

ICS or SHS pistons are great.

Def’ get some Airlab Sorbo in there if you go 11.1V route.

Noted! Thank you ? 

What are the other shs bits like if I was going to get a full set? 

And gearbox wise, I have a g&p I was going to use for the 2nd build, will that be decent enough? 

 

[Davegolf]

Yeh that will be a very perky battery!

SHS gears, tappet plates etc are fine.

Ive used the above parts so many times with excellent results I don’t use much in the way of SHS or ZCI any more.

ICS Orange and Retro Arms are great mid range POM pistons.

Im not a fan of full steel pistons, I like at least a 1/3 soft teeth so that if SHTF the damage is limited to a new piston and a gearbox clean out... as opposed to trashed gears, bearings and/or worse.

Pretty much any gearbox shell can be made good, that’s down to the tech.

 

[Lex Dangler]

Yeh that will be a very perky battery!

SHS gears, tappet plates etc are fine.

Ive used the above parts so many times with excellent results I don’t use much in the way of SHS or ZCI any more.

ICS Orange and Retro Arms are great mid range POM pistons.

Im not a fan of full steel pistons, I like at least a 1/3 soft teeth so that if SHTF the damage is limited to a new piston and a gearbox clean out... as opposed to trashed gears, bearings and/or worse.

Pretty much any gearbox shell can be made good, that’s down to the tech.

Cool, thank you ? I'll have a look into those parts, I was hoping not to have to shell out on any more but I suppose just a few tiny parts won't hurt ?‍

I can't find lonex stuff in stock anywhere! ?‍ 

 

[Davegolf]

Nothing is entirely necessary, it’s whatever your driven to do.

There are plenty of airsofters that would happily build gearboxes from the cheapest parts and get great results, and then there’s the opposite end of the spectrum.

A constant battle of opinions lol!

 

[Lex Dangler]

That's a fair point! I'll use what parts I have left to complete the second build since it will be my backup anyway and see how it goes! Maybe I should have done it the other way round and practiced on the secondary before the primary ?‍

I think I've done a pretty good job though considering ?

I guess I won't know for sure until I take it for a proper spin though! I'm looking forward to that! I've not actually skirmished for years! 

 

[Lex Dangler]

Good afternoon fabulous people! 

So, I have just finished finished tweaking my gun, I changed out the jg blue for the usg 22000 and shs 13:1 for shs 12:1, I was expecting a very slight increase in rof however it's actually dropped from around 17 to 13rps!? I have carefully reshimmed, everything else is as it was, no aeo correction was needed, im using a decent spec 7.4. My mosfet is telling me the amp draw on semi is around 22 and auto around 16 which seems okay? I can't for the life of me figure out what might have gone wrong. Might anyone have any ideas? 

 

[Davegolf]

Is the battery voltage low compared to before?

Assuming the spring and FPS is identical to before?

Have you actually counted your gear set teeth and calculated the 'actual' ratios?

Are the spur and sector mismatched to a bevel etc? (giving you an actually different ratio)

 

[Lex Dangler]

Thanks for your response dude. The battery seemed good, around 7.9v but I'm charging it fully as we speak, I did try two, both almost full and got the same result. Spring is the same, I've not checked fps, the gearbox is only in the lower at the moment. 

I didn't count all teeth, the bevel has 10 and sector has 16

 

[Lex Dangler]

When I shimmed I had the tiniest amount of play on each gear, less than .05mm (I thought it would allow for them to roll a little better) I noticed that after putting the gearbox together completely, there was zero play with the sector. I don't know if that might flag anything? 

Okay, update, freshly charged 1450mah 30c 7.4. Rps up to 16, still not as much as I was getting with 13.1 and the jg blue ?‍ 

Amp draw seems quite high? I've attached a screenshot with the details... 

View attachment 66829

 

[Lex Dangler]

Since the screen shot, temps have risen to mid 20s

 

[Davegolf]

You should have clearance on all your shimming, to allow for lubricant ingress, heat expansion etc.

Typically 0.04 - 0.10mm.

And you need to do this with the shell halves bolted up properly.

Once all gears are fitted, shimmed up, you should be able to whiz them round with your finger driving the sector gear.

Driving from the bevel gives you great mechanical advantage, in your case 12x as much

Aaaand check for tight spots during rotation, which could point to tooth profile faults, casting marks, burrs etc

 

[Lex Dangler]

You should have clearance on all your shimming, to allow for lubricant ingress, heat expansion etc.

Typically 0.04 - 0.10mm.

And you need to do this with the shell halves bolted up properly.

Once all gears are fitted, shimmed up, you should be able to whiz them round with your finger driving the sector gear.

Driving from the bevel gives you great mechanical advantage, in your case 12x as much

Aaaand check for tight spots during rotation, which could point to tooth profile faults, casting marks, burrs etc

Thanks, I'm opening it back up! I'll take another .05 off each gear and give it a whirl ?

 

[Lex Dangler]

Okay, I think I've found the culprit! Shimming seems bang on until I pop the cylinder set in, the Tappet plate presses against the sector gear, I'm assuming that with the gearbox closed it's squeezing against the sector and creating drag, there are marks on the Tappet to suggest this. It also explains why there is some deliberate play in the sector gear until I complete the gearbox fully then none at all. I've tweaked the shimming all round to allow the tiniest amount of clearance and still maintain good meshing, sector and spur are as close as can be without touching and bevel is still bang on for pinion height. Gears have .05mm of play except sector which has a minute amount if any, it can't move in either direction or it will bind against either the Tappet or the spur ?

If you hear loud shrieking hopefully it's me with joy rather than my gearbox imploding!?

 

[Davegolf]

Haha! Seems like you’ve learnt you have to build the box up and down many times as you go along, testing clearance and motion at every step!

 

[Lex Dangler]

15.6 rps now ?‍ I'm giving up for the night. I think I might revert back to 13:1 ?

 

[Sitting Duck]

Really really daft question....

But when you swapped the 13:1 for the 12:1 set...

if you short stroked the sector in 13:1 - did you do the same for the 12:1

coz if not then you will compressing the spring more etc...

and thus lose a bit on ya rof etc...

Silly question but thought I'd ask just in case...

Also if your 12:1 set has a 9 tooth bevel as opposed to a 10t one,

(if you use a 9t bevel on a set that came with a 10t bevel then the ratio

increases by 10% so a 12.65:1 becomes 13.91:1 or slower than the 13:1 set)

Your motor could be mislabelled - try the JG or something ???

The difference on 12:1 & 13:1 is fuck all as I said previously

me personally I'd say the 12:1 is 12.75:1 & 13:1 is like 13.5:1

according to brill armoury/armory (damn yanks & their own English)

according to them they are 12.65:1 & 13.65:1 - well whatever...

like the 16:1 (17.25:1) to 18:1 (18.65:1)

the difference in ratio is about 8% (13.65/12.65 or 18.65/17.25 = about 1.08)

this 8% difference in ratio will not yeild 8% in rps as the slight increase in load from ratio

so realistically expect only about 5% increase to the final rps

which if you are hitting say 16~17rps on 13:1, or say 13rps on 18:1...

then switching to slightly faster gear set won't even gain 1 single round per second

(again the difference is really fuck all)

with regards to amp draw & stuff...

amp draw on Leviathan/Titan's differ to what power meters say

so I personally stick with a meter that I test all guns with

the fancy bollox mosfets can tell the exchange rate, sunrise in Mongolia, the latest share prices

but it is fucking useless at informing me the amp draw of another gun or stock gun with no Titan in it

plus with all them gubbings n shit, I tend to think it reports the amp draw differently to a meter

so I take what them fancy mosfets say about the amp draw with a pinch of salt

simply because I don't think you can compare what a Titan says the amps are Vs a power meter

(same power meter used on all guns when checking/benchmarking)

so nah soz, I reckon a meter will say the amp draw on say 5 sec auto is about 13 amp max

& if it reported the draw being over 20a then the shimming is shit or spring is way overpowered

The other issue is that these fancy bollox mosfets do skim a little off the max possible rof

It isn't their fault, you can't help it - every diode has a forwarding voltage

which basically means it needs a small voltage to turn on - about 0.5v

plus all the other gubbings in that board & reporting what time sunrise is etc...

you are having the voltage availbe to the motor terminals slightly reduced

not a mega amount like 7.4v out of a 11.1v, but you are going to have the full capacity slightly skimmed

So what the Titans report on, the overal rof even with 100% rof is going to vary slightly

to what say an old school aeg might achieve or state with a seperate meter on it

(another daft question: you have got rof set to 100% not say 90% - just asking)

The weird thing about shimming is to ensure you tighten the box up the same as previously...

The urge to clenched fist tighten the screws up - just to be safe...

Nope - finger & thumb on the screwdriver - nipped up moderately tightly

just like you did when shimming....

you tighten the box EXACTLY or with the EXACT same force/torque as previously for shimming

When you try to mega tighten the box you do throw the shimming out a smidge

and if you had very slight play when you shimmed it nicely...

Then expect that slight play to begin to disappear when you clenched ya fist to tighten the box up

So consistancy really matters like most things on reassembly

Wiring = wiring can make a slight difference

not saying totally rewire a gun, but for sure ensure the motor connectors are snug

and make good firm contact with motor terminals

as you try different motors and/or reopen the box, them connectors do tend to loosen slightly

so check & if required crimp the contacts with thin nose pliers to ensure a sound connection

Ensure that if/when you reopen the box, check motor height with grip, motor etc...

using top half of gearbox shell, your pinion should be sitting just right on the outer edge of bevel

but just making full contact with bevel

If motor is a bit too high, then you need to lower motor and add say 0.1 shim to top of bevel

if motor too low then reduce shimming on top of bevel slightly & increase motor height

hopefully you should see the pinion in right place next time you have the box apart on bench

what we all try to acheive is ensure the parts we use are installed as close to perfection as possible

hopefully resulting in close to perfect efficiency & performance as possible

(though due to natures of these fucking shite toy guns - sometimes easier said than doine)

 

[Lex Dangler]

But when you swapped the 13:1 for the 12:1 set...

if you short stroked the sector in 13:1 - did you do the same for the 12:1

coz if not then you will compressing the spring more etc...

and thus lose a bit on ya rof etc...

I didnt shortstroke on the 13:1 or 12:1, I checked all teeth are present and correct which is more than can be said for my own! 

Silly question but thought I'd ask just in case...

Also if your 12:1 set has a 9 tooth bevel as opposed to a 10t one,

(if you use a 9t bevel on a set that came with a 10t bevel then the ratio

increases by 10% so a 12.65:1 becomes 13.91:1 or slower than the 13:1 set)

Your motor could be mislabelled - try the JG or something ???

Checked bevel teeth too, both have 10.

I considered that maybe could be an issue with the u22000, it looks legit unless guts had been swapped so also tried the jg blue with the 12:1 for comparison and got the same rof. 

The difference on 12:1 & 13:1 is fuck all as I said previously

me personally I'd say the 12:1 is 12.75:1 & 13:1 is like 13.5:1

according to brill armoury/armory (damn yanks & their own English)

according to them they are 12.65:1 & 13.65:1 - well whatever...

like the 16:1 (17.25:1) to 18:1 (18.65:1)

the difference in ratio is about 8% (13.65/12.65 or 18.65/17.25 = about 1.08)

this 8% difference in ratio will not yeild 8% in rps as the slight increase in load from ratio

so realistically expect only about 5% increase to the final rps

which if you are hitting say 16~17rps on 13:1, or say 13rps on 18:1...

then switching to slightly faster gear set won't even gain 1 single round per second

(again the difference is really fuck all)

I wasn't expecting a dramatic gain in rps but a gain nonetheless. Certainly not a drop! It was as much to experiment and learn than anything else. 

with regards to amp draw & stuff...

amp draw on Leviathan/Titan's differ to what power meters say

so I personally stick with a meter that I test all guns with

the fancy bollox mosfets can tell the exchange rate, sunrise in Mongolia, the latest share prices

but it is fucking useless at informing me the amp draw of another gun or stock gun with no Titan in it

plus with all them gubbings n shit, I tend to think it reports the amp draw differently to a meter

so I take what them fancy mosfets say about the amp draw with a pinch of salt

simply because I don't think you can compare what a Titan says the amps are Vs a power meter

(same power meter used on all guns when checking/benchmarking)

so nah soz, I reckon a meter will say the amp draw on say 5 sec auto is about 13 amp max

& if it reported the draw being over 20a then the shimming is shit or spring is way overpowered

The other issue is that these fancy bollox mosfets do skim a little off the max possible rof

It isn't their fault, you can't help it - every diode has a forwarding voltage

which basically means it needs a small voltage to turn on - about 0.5v

plus all the other gubbings in that board & reporting what time sunrise is etc...

you are having the voltage availbe to the motor terminals slightly reduced

not a mega amount like 7.4v out of a 11.1v, but you are going to have the full capacity slightly skimmed

So what the Titans report on, the overal rof even with 100% rof is going to vary slightly

to what say an old school aeg might achieve or state with a seperate meter on it

(another daft question: you have got rof set to 100% not say 90% - just asking)

I appreciate that the fet might skim a little but then it would have done the same with the 13:1, so I still would have expected a slight climb in rps.

One thing I had considered was the motor is struggling more to pull the spring (pdi 150) with the 12s than with the 13s? But had read that the u22000, and the jg blue for that matter are more than capable of pulling that load with both set ups?

And yes, rof is set to 100%, that was one of the first things I checked when I was trouble shooting.

Is there a particular affordable amp meter you would recommend? 

The weird thing about shimming is to ensure you tighten the box up the same as previously...

The urge to clenched fist tighten the screws up - just to be safe...

Nope - finger & thumb on the screwdriver - nipped up moderately tightly

just like you did when shimming....

you tighten the box EXACTLY or with the EXACT same force/torque as previously for shimming

When you try to mega tighten the box you do throw the shimming out a smidge

and if you had very slight play when you shimmed it nicely...

Then expect that slight play to begin to disappear when you clenched ya fist to tighten the box up

So consistancy really matters like most things on reassembly

I'm confident that the shimming is good, I used half shell to perfect bevel to pinion/get motor height bang on then went from there. I tightened the gearbox properly (finger tight then just a tweak more every time on every screw) and ensured movement was still fluid and still some play, then checked there was still some play after greased (superlube silicon grease, not too much or little) and fully built with cylinder set etc. In fact, when I shimmed originally with 13:1 there was NO play yet that build achieved higher rof than 12:1 with play ?‍

I also checked bevel and pinion meshed well with both motors and they both did perfectly at 90degrees.

I shimmed several times in fact, varying my method each time in case I was at fault but rps was the same each time.

Wiring = wiring can make a slight difference

not saying totally rewire a gun, but for sure ensure the motor connectors are snug

and make good firm contact with motor terminals

as you try different motors and/or reopen the box, them connectors do tend to loosen slightly

so check & if required crimp the contacts with thin nose pliers to ensure a sound connection

This is one thing I have noticed! The motor terminals have become slightly loose since everything has been taken apart and rebuilt so many times now, so I will crimp the connections a bit and give it a whirl, hopefully that's the problem, I can't think of anything else it could be. I will post results when I've done it.

Just to note, all the wiring is in very good condition otherwise and I have ground down the nubs on the gearbox so there are no pinch points.

Thank you for your suggestions duck, you've been a great help ?