Not here no, wasn't trying to imply that. But they have and I like to try and head that sort of thing off at the pass, as it were.
Fair enough. I've been called allsorts of dick and i suspect that some of it is well deserved, but that doesn't mean that everything i, or anybody else whom may be personally labelled during the course of a discussion/argument, say/s is bollocks. Of course such
ad hominem attacks are the first recourse of a poor rhetorician with a dodgy, or non-existent, argument :lol:
Thing is, I see filthy, rotting boots and freighed straps on gear etc all the time, the majority of airsofters don't have the mentality of taking good care of their kit because nobody's ever drilled that in to them. I mean how many kids ever polish a leather shoe these days? The whole culture in society is about 'disposable' everything, buy cheap, then chuck it away, which doesn't really work for safety kit I don't think.
Good points with which I have much sympathy, but not necessarily supportive to your position re: cheaper Chinese eye protection. I mean, if the prevailing attitude is to buy cheap and you are attempting to tell people to change their attitude and spend more money, how is that any better advice than my position which is that they should change their attitude towards looking after their kit? Bearing in mind that no matter how good their eye protection is/is purported to be/costs, if they don't look after it, they'll have problems sooner or later, whether that be due to failure or, more likely, it falling off and/or not being able to see through it very well.
What it boils down to is whether the more expensive options are inherently better and safer than their cheaper Chinese counterparts. I take issue with i) the generalisation ii) conflation of the 2 issues better and safer iii) the idea that the more expensive options are not, at least partly, Chinese in origin and, if no parts of them are, that whatever standards their parts are manufactured to do actually affect the safety of the finished product iv) the common notion that more expensive = better.
Personally I only go through that sort of maintenance cycle with kit because I had it hammered in to me during the long time I spent in training. I absolutely agree that everybody should check these things, but the issue is they unfortunately don't.
Well I didn't have much as a kid so, quite apart from the fact that my dad would use any excuse to be a violent, domineering monster and thus cleaning shoes, footy boots, shin pads, etc. had to be seen to be being done, I fully got it that I wasn't going to get any more if i knackered my stuff by neglect.
As a parenting strategy, I'd have to advise against the former, because it gets to a stage where the victim knows that they're going to be in trouble whether they do as they're told or not, so they have to find a dishonest strategy to avoid punishment rather than, for eg, make sure their boots
are clean. I fully endorse the latter however, because there are few emotions more goading than embarrassment and none worse than shame. Once a child experiences the social stigma of being the one with the shabby kit and is told in no uncertain terms that the reason they cannot have new is because they are responsible for the state of the old, they will get it... obviously there has to be a way the kid can earn new and they do need reminding to look after it, but it really doesn't take beasting them!
I don't think it's fair to say that because someone is ignorant they somehow are deserving of an injury. Because, if anything, (ignoring the actual injured party here) as and when someone does get hurt it'll most likely get out and have repercussions for all of us, which nobody wants.
Well I didn't say they deserved to be injured, I said they are dicks who will get injured sooner or later, by airsofting or something else. Actually I do tend to think that they deserve it, so long as they have in fact had the dangers explained to them; I mean, if you run across a busy road without looking and get mowed down, is it anybody else's fault than your own? Wilfully ignoring advice which really ought not to have needed to be given, ie same thing... But I take your point; we could well all suffer for the negligence of one dick and also, just in case anyone gets the idea that i'm one of these hardline right wing types, just because i believe that ultimately we do deserve the hurts we take from our own stupidity,
I don't actually want anyone to get hurt! I think that site owners should add a little about maintenance to their safety briefings and/or their website blurb, plus inspect noobs' eyewear before allowing it into the field and if anything seems dodgy to them, offer to test it with a 500 fps shot, or refuse to allow it in play.
I see a lot of folks on forums get offended by proxy because someone else doesn't like/recommend the kit/guns/whatever they own, I'm guilty of it myself at some point I'm sure. But the longer I spend on airsoft forums the more I become aware of how many people just lurk and don't post. I go to games and people say "oh you posted up about this, I think XYZ" or they ask me about my youtube videos or message me on facebook about a picture of something, and I'm sure it happens a lot more to other people who are actually well known amongst the community. So I really just feel that when we leave these posts here, we should only encourage people to be as safe as they can possibly be, which includes buying the very best safety kit they can possibly afford; primarily eye pro.
I know what you mean but, in this case, I'm not arguing from a sense of injured pride. I have a number of eyewear options - the Chinese wire mesh goggles I mentioned made by KHMountain, some unbranded Chinese sheet mesh shooting glasses, a "Killer" mask with heavy duty sheet mesh eyes, Chinese KHMountain sheet mesh goggles & plastic half-face combo, Bolle mirror lensed protective glasses, RUC issue riot helmet with visor & British army issue Anti Mine Visor for MK6 helmets. You'll note that the only type I am defending is the wire mesh goggles. This is not simply because they are my favourite (in fact they aren't, even though I wear them the most - why will become clear anon), but because I believe that this type offer the best compromise between ballistic safety and seeing-where-you're-going safety and the fact that they are manufactured in China makes no difference whatsoever because, even if KHMountain were some fly-by-night cowboy operation, the steel wire mesh used is way stronger than it need be for our purposes, so even if you got some from a poor quality batch of mesh, they would still be safe. Therefore I say that rather than saving up for your example, ESS Advancers, noobs should spend less on these which will not only serve them better but the difference will leave them with enough money to also get a wire mesh half-face mask to make sure they don't get any teeth shot out either and what's left after that can go towards some decent military boots (of which I'd say that, for absolute safety, again you're better off with £30 surplus German Para boots than £100+ Goretex gucci efforts).
I also have a Russian military issue respirator/scuba anti-fog pencil which works remarkably well, better than commercial spray for eg, but not perfectly and only for a short time - I hoping this is going to make it possible for me to wear an S10 respirator long enough to skirmish in. Also, as I complete my planned British Army 70's & 80's loadouts, I expect I'll buy the period correct issue eyewear. However, in both of these latter cases, if the anti-fogging isn't working well for me, I will take the lenses out and replace them with wire mesh, most probably, like almost everything these days, manufactured in China.
I agree that we ought to behave responsibly when we post here. However I believe that the blanket advice that more expensive equates to better is not just mistaken, but, potentially, counter-productive. As you suggested, many people have a use and throw away attitude towards their kit and it could well be that, having spent 3-5 times more on their eyewear than cheap Chinese imports cost, they simply assume that they can wear it until it's no longer fashionable and it will be safe, however they treat or store it. I'm sure you agree that this is not the right attitude to have towards kit that stops you being blinded...
I really wish I knew where to find the photos and I'm going to look entirely not-credible now, but a while ago somewhere on Arnies did a test & posted up pictures of a cheap sansei/standard rental type mesh mask and even their mid-powered AEG came very close to penetrating at close range, a bolt action punched right on through with one shot. That's simply no good because in a skirmish it's obviously quite possible for some new player with a 500 FPS clone sniper rifle to mess up and shoot someone at close range, definitely seen that happen. Some of the chinese mesh is fine no doubt about it, but if some newbie buys a mask that's truly uber-mega-cheap with super thin and weak metal and just not safe, they likely won't test it before using it in game because they're too busy running around shining their predator-style triple RIS mounted lasers at mirrors/pint glasses and telling their CoD mates about how cool it is. Then you have a potential for someone to lose an eye come skirmish day, that's just not gonna happen with an ESS lens that's proven to stop IED shrapnel and shotgun loads. As long as people do test out whatever they're planning to use and give it a really good check over then great, it should be just fine, I just wish there a way to make 100% sure that every player did in fact do that. That's the main crux of the matter really.
Fear not, mate, I decided to do some tests and photograph them myself:
I don't have my own chronograph so I can only report to you the FPS recorded @Skirmish Airsoft Mansfield and by AF-UK member Arden rather than show you, but for comparison I started by shooting an empty can of Lynx with my Ares L1A1 which chrono's @425 FPS steadily and also with my Palco Firepower CO2 Raider which shoots @386 FPS approx and loses power with each subsequent shot if they are fired one after another; this was the 2nd shot (the 1st went into my fireplace to check it was loaded lol). All shots were fired from approx 1 inch away but the L1A1 has almost 3 inches of open sided flash hider, but that shouldn't matter because the 425 FPS was measured with the same flash hider on...
As you can see, the L1A1 shot produced a deeper dent. What you probably can't discern from the photo is that up close it looks like it wasn't far from going right through the metal.
Before:
Pretty much the definition of "truly uber-mega-cheap with super thin and weak metal" -
I bought them from this fleaBayer who now sells them even cheaper: £2.97
After:
The dent isn't as deep as either of those in the Lynx can and not surprising since the mesh is magnetic, thus some type of steel alloy, and even though the holes must weaken it, it's still stronger than the non-magnetic can which I suspect is simple recycled aluminium. I reckon that these are now compromised because, even if I press that dent out, it's a weak point which could give way in a 1:1Million freak accident and, because they are so cheap, I have no reason to run even that infinitesimal risk. However, be that as it may, the fact remains that the mesh didn't give way up against a shot which would almost never happen...
Before:
I bought these on 21/02/12, 1 item from my 1st order of own kit, and they've been shot plenty...
After:
I've circled the damage because it's not easy to tell that there is any, which pretty much rests the case for the defence, except to say that the last time I was @Skirmish (21/10/12)
*, during 1 of the fort attack/defend scenarios, I got lit up in the face on full auto from above me about 4m away. IDK what FPS the lad's M4 was chrono'd at, but he didn't seem to be having any problems with range during the rest of the day so I'm guessing somewhere between 330-360. It put the sh!ts right up me and I yelped, but, as you can see, the hits didn't cause any damage to the goggles...
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