Machine guns

[Northman]

In a game where there are waves upon waves of snipers thanks to YouTube ‘celebrities’ be prepared for the inevitable salvoes of .48s that will be bouncing off your head if you run a static LMG, like a MG42. 

It’s only worth doing if your site lets real LMGs run at 400+ FPS and even then you need to have the proper setup and adjust your play to suit.  

 

[Tackle]

In a game where there are waves upon waves of snipers thanks to YouTube ‘celebrities’ be prepared for the inevitable salvoes of .48s that will be bouncing off your head if you run a static LMG, like a MG42. 

It’s only worth doing if your site lets real LMGs run at 400+ FPS and even then you need to have the proper setup and adjust your play to suit.  

lmg's running at 400+ fps, are you on day release or something ?.

even if we ignore the obvious legal implications, who you gonna trust with these "firearms", cos in my experience hot guns attract small dicked eedjits like a moth to a flame, the kind of dickheads you can guarantee will conveniently"forget" about overkill & med rules.

thanks for your input ?

 

[Northman]

lmg's running at 400+ fps, are you on day release or something ?.

even if we ignore the obvious legal implications, who you gonna trust with these "firearms", cos in my experience hot guns attract small dicked eedjits like a moth to a flame, the kind of dickheads you can guarantee will conveniently"forget" about overkill & med rules.

thanks for your input ?

Thanks for the reply and insinuation that I’m on day release.

From memory I’ve played at two sites where the limits were that high and in both cases it was heavily policed in terms of minimum engagement distance, the LMG that it applied to and the requirement for a side arm.

This was some time ago but I have to say it added a new dynamic to the game in that LMGs like your MG42’s, GPMGs and I remember one chap having a .30cal - could actually dominate ground rather than being just another large AEG with a box mag.

Thanks for your input ?

Edit - a mate just confirmed it was a 400fps hard limit not 400+ as per my previous. ?

 

[E21A]

Thanks for your input ?

Edit - a mate just confirmed it was a 400fps hard limit not 400+ as per my previous. ?

If it’s full auto it’s still illegal 

 

[Rogerborg]

it was heavily policed

Past tense.

Since the Policing and Crime Act 2017, section 125 came in, anything shooting full auto that's capable[*]of producing over 1.3J (~375fps with 0.2g) is unambiguously a section 5 prohibited firearm.

It doesn't make much sense, we don't have to like it, but we can't ignore it.

[*} Dibble can explicitly drop a steel BB, or lead for that matter, in there.  The restriction is on what it can produce, not what you're currently running it with.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

[*} Dibble can explicitly drop a steel BB, or lead for that matter, in there.  The restriction is on what it can produce, not what you're currently running it with.

which is a scary prospect without precedent, as basically anything that can joule creep is going to end up being sketchy if you're doing that.

and i'm sure the "you just fucked up my gun that's why we don't run steel!" defence is going to work perfectly well.

 

[Rogerborg]

which is a scary prospect without precedent, as basically anything that can joule creep is going to end up being sketchy if you're doing that.

Yes, it can. 

I can see why the legislation says "is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level" though.  The issue isn't how the gun is being used, it's how it could be abused.

It doesn't currently keep me awake at nights, but if I hear of any prosecutions for it, I may have to rethink that.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Yes, it can. 

I can see why the legislation says "is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds the permitted level" though.  The issue isn't how the gun is being used, it's how it could be abused.

It doesn't currently keep me awake at nights, but if I hear of any prosecutions for it, I may have to rethink that.

it is a problem, without a precedent there's a lot of issues, kinda makes almost all of airsoft sit in a grey area.

of course i don't imagine it's going to be a problem as long as there aren't enough instances of people taking the mick, but if they do come down on the side of being very strict (which given how in public perceptions of anything "gun" are is very possible) i can see there being issues.

for example every hpa in the country could instantly be ruled out, which is going to be an expensive day for many players.

 

[Lollingsgrad]

Since the Policing and Crime Act 2017, section 125 came in, anything shooting full auto that's capable[*]of producing over 1.3J (~375fps with 0.2g) is unambiguously a section 5 prohibited firearm.

So this is interesting and upsetting. I'm sure you're right because you're normally hot on this subject but I'm curious to hear where you got this from. I thought the current understanding was that if this limit is exceeded it's unclear what this means but we assumed it fell into section 5?

 

[Tackle]

it becomes section 5 because there's no alternative, no middle ground.

while we all have gripes about vcra & associated laws that affect us, it is what it is, & it defines what we can do.

the problem isn't the government/authorities (yet ?), its the individuals who feel that our toys are just that, toys, so what harm is there to push the boundaries a bit, what's the worst that

could happen, these same people look at airsoft abroad & think higher limits work there so again, what's the harm.

worst part of it is, one of the biggest threats to airsoft are the cheats, small dicked losers that do their best to squeeze more range by upping fps post chrono, they're not just cheating us they're deluding themselves, & when people lose eyes & the HSE start taking notice, & it will happen, it'll fuck it up for the remaining 98% of law abiding genuine players.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

well said, it's an unfortunate fact of life that people are going to take these things and do stupid things with them, the best we can do is try and keep what's within our community to standard and hope the idiots don't draw enough attention to make a change.

i'm sure the drone aficionado's have the same gripes about the knobs who think flying around airports is a good idea.

 

[Rogerborg]

So this is interesting and upsetting. I'm sure you're right because you're normally hot on this subject but I'm curious to hear where you got this from. I thought the current understanding was that if this limit is exceeded it's unclear what this means but we assumed it fell into section 5?

As tackle says, there's no other category into which it can fall.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5

5 Weapons subject to general prohibition.

(1) A person commits an offence if, without authority, he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires

(a) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;

So, any automatic firearm is prohibited. But surely airsoft toys aren't firearms?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57

57 Interpretation.

(1) In this Act, the expression “firearm” means—

(a) a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));

(1B) In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged.

Oops.  So why aren't all automatic airsoft guns prohibited?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/57A

57A Exception for airsoft guns

(1) An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act.

(2)(b) / (4)(a) An “airsoft gun” is a barrelled weapon of any description which [...] is not capable of discharging a missile (of any kind) with kinetic energy at the muzzle of the weapon that exceeds [...] in the case of a weapon which is capable of discharging two or more missiles successively without repeated pressure on the trigger, 1.3 joules;

I don't like it, I didn't believe it until I'd checked myself (please do, see if we can spot another loophole), but I cannot see any other interpretation.

The language of Section 57A even matches section 5.  We had a specific exception made for us.  If our toys breach it, they're not toys any more, they're proper gnus.  I mean, guns.

It's a pickle, because the only way to tell what an airsoft toy/gun can can really produce is to drop some steel / lead BBs in there and potentially wreck the hop rubber and barrel.

And HPA, yes, that's the web-toed cousin we keep locked in the attic and don't talk about.

 

[PopRocket123]

It's frustrating being this limited by the law. In the States where pretty much the only laws around them are the orange to you get much more diversity in FPS and roles of different guns. For a good example check out the FPS rules of Ballahack Airsoft field. There you actually get different rules for sub guns and rifles and even distinguishes between SAWs and LMGs

 

[hunter511]

Re-reading through this....

1) I'd hate to be the test case......

2) surely sites aren't still allowing full-auto above the 3725 limit?

3) given any site allowing above said 375 limit who claims on their insurance are a) gonna find said insurance invalid and b) going to be ground zero for a messy criminal case surely no site is allowing anything even vaguely full auto capable above 375fps?

@PopRocket123 trust me the current limitations are nothing compared to what the government originally wanted......

 

[PopRocket123]

@PopRocket123 trust me the current limitations are nothing compared to what the government originally wanted......

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

 

[hunter511]

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

erm more of a case of lucky to still have a hobby......

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

Speak for yourself, thats the deal ni got and we're just thankful we didnt get what the germans have to deal with.

 

[Rogerborg]

Oh I'm sure. We're lucky to not have a blanket 1J limit

One might venture to suggest that if your fully automatic toy is pushing plastic at above 1J then it's potentially a Section 5 gun.

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

One might venture to suggest that if your fully automatic toy is pushing plastic at above 1J then it's potentially a Section 5 gun.

I wouldn't even venture to think to write such a comment. Supplying your own rope and all that.

 

[Stratton Oakmont]

I'm all for the wouldn't it be nice type discussions but fps limits at all the sites I've played on err on the side of caution for our own protection physical and legal

As others have put it we have it as good as we are going to get it, and the idea of people running private no fps limit games and such like do not help the hobby.

My own opinion is that if you even think about tinkering with a gun you should own a chrono, for your own protection and err on the side of caution., running to the limits puts you and the hobby at risk before you even go into the moral aspect of potentially hurting people.

As this is an open forum I believe that providing others with potential ammunition (pun intended) via some comments however well intentioned, could be used to shut the hobby down. 

There are are enough tools out there running around ( as previously reported) on housing estates with their rifs trying to to do that for us, no one outside the hobby is interested in a news story about responsible players

Re rogerborgs comment - I don't disagree with it as I hope I have shown with the comment above, just feelthe wording if read by someone with an axe to grind could be misinterpreted as a lot of people run their rifs over a joule legally without breaking 340fps let alone the 350 hard limit imposed by many sites.