Looking for some Bullpup info please

[TommoThomson]

I've been looking at buying a Bullpup for a while now and have it narrowed down to one of three and was hoping that I could get some advice from people that have them  as to the good and bad points, or whether its like owning any RIF in that they are all built to last as well as you treat them.

So the three I'm considering are;

G&G FN2000

Tavor 21 (Tar21) 

P90

I'm not sure as to the make to get on the Tar21 or P90, but the main reason I'm looking at a Bullpup is the fact you have a huge barrel stuffed into a body shell.

In fact whilst the FN2000 has an inner barrel that is over 400mm its still in total length shorter than the G&G Predator, which when you think about it is actually pretty good design concept. 

So there you have it and now it's over to you folks to tell me what I'm getting into by going Bullpup and if there are any other options you want to give me the heads up on please let me know.

 

[FreeFrag.UK]

I'll try fill in what I can but unfortunately it'll be from memory/third hand knowledge.

The new iteration of the G&G FN2000 has their electronic trigger control, from memory their original one was well received and well regarded. G&G tends to make good to excellent quality products. I couldn't say what the internals are like as far as parts compatibility is concerned as I'm not sure what type of gearbox is used.

The Tavor 21 is quite well regarded but this is reliant on getting the right one, unfortunately I can't recall the recommended one out of the Tavor's but most are poor quality.

The P90 is probably the safest bet and the most well documented out of the three you've highlighted. One of the forum members ( @Asomodai) produced a thread detailing a comprehensive re-build of a Cyma P-90. Be aware that with a P90 hi-cap's are  a complete waste of time.

The ICS L85 is also a very strong contender if you're after a bullpup but like all bullpup's it has it's own set of quirks. If you want to add a rail system the L85 system quickly increases in price, assuming you can find the rail in stock. The Ares version is considered by many to have the best externals but these can be hard to get a hold of, retail for higher prices and are renowned for being an absolute sod to work on.

Although the same can be said for virtually all airsoft guns, bullpup's in particular are known for having a wide variety of quirks. These quirks stem from design choices unique to bullpup's due to restrictions stemming from the internal layouts/space of each platform. One of the most common quirks between each bullpup are reports of "spongy" triggers but I can't say this is something I've ever really noticed. I'll concede that on the trigger front I accept and expect a certain level of required depression so perhaps this is why I've overlooked this particular quirk.

I wouldn't get too fixated on barrel length either, while the biggest draw to a bullpup (at least in the real world) is having a longer barrel in a more compact package, as real steel ballistics do not apply. If you want go down the tech rabbit hole you'd be looking to assess the optimum barrel length for your gun based on air cylinder to barrel volume ratios. Longer barrels in airsoft do not guarantee greater accuracy nor do they guarantee greater range, in fact if you have a barrel that is too long then this will negatively impact performance.

Hopefully the above is of some help, unfortunately my personal experience is limited to the ICS L85A2 and the Classic Army AUG A1. I have been fortunate enough to handle and fire a variety of other bullpups but that is far as my experiences go. One thing I really liked about the P90 was how compact it is along with the sight being in a good position due to the raised position.

A final point I'd raise would be that a lot of people do not get on with bullpups due to how they handle and their (re)loading process. To run a bullpup effectively it will take a bit of time to get used to the reload methodology. The reloading process is another area which is often highlighted as an area of criticism in the airsoft community but this falls down to platform familiarity.

 

[Asomodai]

Most of it was covered above. I really should create a bullpups thread with this sort of info. 

First off, barrel length accounts for very little in Airsoft. You will not get more range due to barrel length. In fact a longer barrel may mean not being able to lift heavier bb's. Generally anything longer then 450mm is a waste and detrimental. It also causes issues with lack of volume if you plan to short stroke to increase ROF. 

The good thing about bullpups is that they are short and as such good in an urban setting where it is easier to shoulder and bring up to a firing stance. 

F2000: The original G&G F2000 was finicky at best, semi auto was very unreliable and didnt take long to become permanently fully auto. The new one with the ETU supposedly fixes this, but not many people have bought them and havent had them long enough to confirm that it is no longer a problem. The V6 gearbox is really easy to work on as the wiring is external. The hunter scope, though looks cool is fairly useless, sight picture is small and eye relief terrible.

Cyma/Cybergun make an F2000 which essentially takes the AUG internals and stuff them in an F2000 body. This uses a V3 gearbox so although harder to work on then the V6 it has more upgrade compatible parts available. You cannot fit them with a hunter scope. 

Regardless of which F2000 they both have real fitment issues with some Hi-Caps and most midcaps. You can slot them in and fire, but trying to remove them may mean receiver disassembly. Its very difficult to put the receiver back together once you split it in half. My Cyma F2000 works well with Nuprol N Type mags, but has real troubles trying to drop ICS long HiCaps. F2000's are also heavier then most bullpups and finding a harness/sling that works with it is difficult and expensive. 

Tavor: Unless you really like the platform I would avoid all of the Tavors. The Ares is best out of the box, but it has mostly proprietary parts and are impossible to replace let alone upgrade. Externals are good quality with no seams etc. 

The S&T is worse out of the box, but has slightly better upgrade potential, the gearbox for the most part can be gutted and have parts replaced, but the hop unit is incredibly fragile and almost impossible to find replacements for. The trigger pull is even longer then the Ares. The blowback version has one of the weakest blow back circuits which breaks really easily and not worth the extra money. 

The KWA/Umarex GBBr needs a hell of a lot of janky bodges to make it skirmishable in this country and the mags are heavy. Good externals but not worth the money in the slightest. 

Elite Force released the CTAR last year, which is supposedly quite good, but its not available anywhere but the states. 

P90: Out of the three you have picked, this is probably the best you can get out of the box. The TM High Cycle is fantastic, needs no upgrading and is well priced. 

The Cyma needs a fair bit of work to get working nicely as it is just plain awful out of the box but is actually a very good rifle to work on if you are looking for your first project gun due to its ease of breaking down and building it back up again. 

However, the High Caps suck and the only decent Mid Cap is the "Mag" midcap, which can cause midcap syndrome when brand new so need to be underfilled to around 90-100 rounds for the first few months of regular use. 

----------------------

You should also consider the ICS and/or G&G L85 as they have fantastic externals with workable internals. Though they do have issues with the cut off levers wearing out quickly that would prevent semi auto function (Though there are plenty of spares out there). 

Also consider the TM Aug HC. Mine hasnt missed a beat and although I am not keen on the looks it is the most reliable rifle. 

Real Sword Type 97's are considered to be the best bullpups, but they are heavy, almost impossible to find and are no longer in production. 

The Ares Otto AR is also considered to be one of the best bullpups out there due to the amount of tech in it, however it is heavy and the hop unit is unstable and needs work. 

Dont bother with any Famas's. Takes far too much work to be good enough for outdoor skirmishes. 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

F2000: The original G&G F2000 was finicky at best, semi auto was very unreliable and didnt take long to become permanently fully auto. The new one with the ETU supposedly fixes this, but not many people have bought them and havent had them long enough to confirm that it is no longer a problem. The V6 gearbox is really easy to work on as the wiring is external. The hunter scope, though looks cool is fairly useless, sight picture is small and eye relief terrible.

Cyma/Cybergun make an F2000 which essentially takes the AUG internals and stuff them in an F2000 body. This uses a V3 gearbox so although harder to work on then the V6 it has more upgrade compatible parts available. You cannot fit them with a hunter scope. 

Regardless of which F2000 they both have real fitment issues with some Hi-Caps and most midcaps. You can slot them in and fire, but trying to remove them may mean receiver disassembly. Its very difficult to put the receiver back together once you split it in half. My Cyma F2000 works well with Nuprol N Type mags, but has real troubles trying to drop ICS long HiCaps. F2000's are also heavier then most bullpups and finding a harness/sling that works with it is difficult and expensive. 

very good assessment there.

the original g&g f2000's problem with semi auto is due to the weird modified cutoff lever to adapt to the trigger unit means there's a lot of load on the cam follower and it wears out very quickly, getting them to fire semi auto reliably i can confirm is a pipe dream, but short bursts can compensate.

it uses a slightly modified v6 box (p90) so aside from the trigger unit/cutoff lever it's pretty standard and pretty well built. it's a dream to work on because so much of it can be easily removed before it comes to splitting it open and it's only 2 screws to pull the box out anyway.

the adjustable fps is a gimmick, and having it back off mid-game can happen which is very annoying. however it does make the mainspring removable.

he's bang on about mags as well, i use MAG midcaps which do fit (took me a long ass time to find) and asg's polymer midcaps also fit, but you'll be mostly stuck to "usgi" style and fancy pmag styles are a no-go. it does require a little modification to take regular midcaps (little tab on the gearbox needs cut off) but it works just fine.

he's also dead right about sling mounts, ended up having to custom make some tactical lingerie to be able to fit a sling.

other than that the rest of the gun is pretty well put together, not really any complaints, never used the hunter scope (i preferr the railed with an eotech), the trigger pull is crap compared to, well, pretty much anything else but that's a comment common to the real one as well.

 

[TommoThomson]

Thanks for all that information guys really helpful, I had read that the Tar21s could be hit and miss with the build quality and even though I like the look of them I think I will avoid.

With regards to the barrel length I really wouldn't want to go longer at all, I like playing with shorter CQB builds, but my current Krytac PDW with its 155mm barrel just seems to be lacking when we are playing outside and you have more range.

Hence why I was like well the FN2000 seems like a good bet, as I have a Predator which I like due to the G&G build (a mate is buying this now and it lacks character so happy to let him have it) and it has either a 403mm or 430mm barrel (I'm seeing conflicts on details on sites that sell them from new and they either say its a 405mm or 430mm internal barrel) and these as new have the newer etu mosfet setup that is installed in my Predator.

If I go P90 I was thinking of getting a TM, as I have been told they are still up there as one of the best makers of RIFs and I would fit or buy it fitted with the high cap mag upgrade so I can use the M4 mag to feed it.

The P90 does seem to be a fairly good option over the FN2000 as I can get a 275mm TNT internal barrel (by the way TNT barrels are really good and do exactly what Redwolf said they would) and I do like the high rise for the sight location.

I'm not really sure about getting an L85 though and with the rail mounting being what it is and so it makes it a bit of a you buy it as is and make do and thats not really what I want, as I like to be able see something and go I will have that as I can fit it on my RIF.

AUG were an option I was thinking about and a friend has a TM version, however I was told it only has safe and auto fire, which was another reason why i dont want to go for high cycle as I like to be able to bounce between auto and single shot as and when I want to.

I picked up on the trigger pull issues you get with bullpups, would having something like a Gate fitted not resolve this?

 

[kasaran]

Every p90 with a stanag modification is an abomination that should be destroyed

 

[TommoThomson]

Every p90 with a stanag modification is an abomination that should be destroyed

Why would that be?

It gives you a chances to go toe to toe with any LMG out there and you should be able to out move them as a P90 weighs nothing, I speak from experience as my Krytac LMG weighs the same amount as a baby elephant and isn't worth the grief of carrying around ?

 

[Asomodai]

AUG were an option I was thinking about and a friend has a TM version, however I was told it only has safe and auto fire, which was another reason why i dont want to go for high cycle as I like to be able to bounce between auto and single shot as and when I want to.

All TM Aug High Cycles have a semi auto switch. Mine does. Many augs dont however. 

In addition, the Aug Hicycle is considered to have a slightly higher ROF then the P90 hicycle. 

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

AUG were an option I was thinking about and a friend has a TM version, however I was told it only has safe and auto fire, which was another reason why i dont want to go for high cycle as I like to be able to bounce between auto and single shot as and when I want to.

I think this is incorrect, and I think stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the AUG trigger mechanism - what I say below is only accurate to the TM HiCycle Aug, as I've only used that one

The TM Aug has a 3-stage fire selector - Safe, Semi, Auto. If you're set to Semi, pressing the trigger will only allow you to press it halfway, firing a single shot.

If in full auto, the trigger turns into a two-stage trigger - press it halfway, it fires a single shot. Press it more firmly, it fires auto. It's a bloody lovely way of using auto imo, because you can spam on semi, while set to auto, really easily. I really really love the TM HiCycle aug from an ergonomic/RoF/accuracy point of view. My understanding is that mechanically they're not built in the sanest of ways but someone else can pitch in on that.

FWIW @Asomodai if you didn't know, you can get rid of that ugly rail attached to the bottom of the barrel. I did and it's much nicer to use now, as well as looking a lot nicer.

 

[Asomodai]

FWIW @Asomodai if you didn't know, you can get rid of that ugly rail attached to the bottom of the barrel. I did and it's much nicer to use now, as well as looking a lot nicer.

I prefer having the rail actually. Its the short length I dont like about it. Needs a barrel extension  And I prefer the built in scope of the A1. 

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

I prefer having the rail actually. Its the short length I dont like about it. Needs a barrel extension

Ah, we definitely differ there - I love the short barrel. It just feels so... pointable - ultimate bullpup form factor

 

[FreeFrag.UK]

Barrel length.

I had a look at the product specification for the Krytac PDW and (assuming you haven't already done so) swapping over from the standard 155mm 6.05mm barrel to a high quality tight bore barrel may help but this will also effect the FPS. The hop unit is your biggest factor when it comes to range and as such it might be worth looking at replacing the hop rubber for a higher quality bucking along with a better nub (if necessary).

Although 155mm is short there are ways of improving effective range but in this instance some with a more familiar with the technical side will be in a better position. I'd just like to reiterate that barre length doesn't necessitate range or accuracy, the bigger factor is having a good quality hop set up which is correctly dialled in.

Tokyo Marui P90.

Tokyo Marui's reputation is well earned and a lot of this stems from the build quality and the high quality control standards. I'm not sure what the compatibility situation is like for the Stanag Mag adaptor so this might be worth researching further. Admittedly I'm in the camp where a P90 rocking Stanag magazines is an abomination but it's players choice and I understand why some players pursue this option.

L85.

There are picattiny rail mounts available for the top of the receiver, at least for the ICS variant. The iron sights are actually pretty good but I'd suggest handling one if you get the opportunity to do so. My reference to rails was more focused on the RIS system from Daniel Defence (airsoft version made by Madbull if memory serves).

AUG Trigger.

The AUG trigger is a dual stage trigger, at approximately half pull it fires in semi and at full depression it will fire in full auto. The trigger system definitely requires discipline and semi only sites tend to disallow this (if they're aware of it) to prevent any risk of people slipping into full auto. There is a modification which can be performed to enforce semi-auto. - See additional information from Asomodai in relation to the TM AUG trigger.

MOSFETs.

There are various MOSFETs which can be fitted but these aren't always effective at resolving the "spongy" feel often reported.

 

[TommoThomson]

Ah, we definitely differ there - I love the short barrel. It just feels so... pointable - ultimate bullpup form factor

I'm with you there I prefer short barrels, but then again I prefer shorter RIFs and I think its why I keep coming back to Bullpups.

@Asomodai, @DrAlexanderTobac do you happen to have any pics of your AUG, as if I'm honest I have kinda written these off...may due to not knowing enough about them, like can you use standard M4 mags?

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

I'm with you there I prefer short barrels, but then again I prefer shorter RIFs and I think its why I keep coming back to Bullpups.

@Asomodai, @DrAlexanderTobac do you happen to have any pics of your AUG, as if I'm honest I have kinda written these off...may due to not knowing enough about them, like can you use standard M4 mags?

Nope, you need AUG specific mags. No pics but I can take some when I get home.

The MAG brand 170-round midcaps are best in my opinion, you can get them in boxes of 4 from FireSupport occasionally.

 

[EvilMonkee]

Any thoughts on the offerings of GBBR Bullpups?

 

[Asomodai]

I'm with you there I prefer short barrels, but then again I prefer shorter RIFs and I think its why I keep coming back to Bullpups.

@Asomodai, @DrAlexanderTobac do you happen to have any pics of your AUG, as if I'm honest I have kinda written these off...may due to not knowing enough about them, like can you use standard M4 mags?

No photos of mine being used in the field I am afraid. Mine is just a standard Tan one anyway. Nothing special! 

Any thoughts on the offerings of GBBR Bullpups?

The Umarex/KWA Tavor has lots of problems out of the box. 

The Bearpaw SVU from what I hear is pretty damn good as well as the GHK Aug. The the only two I can recommend. 

You can also get plenty of SRU bullpup conversion kits for various GBBr guns. 

 

[Yukarin]

Any thoughts on the offerings of GBBR Bullpups?

WE L85 is a fun gun once you fix its initial problems. But being a WE, shit wears out rather quickly and I found it only really performs well in the Summer even with trying to use black gas with it during the autumn.

 

[TommoThomson]

Any thoughts on the offerings of GBBR Bullpups?

I don't think I've seen one up for sale if I'm honest, but I've seen pic and there are a good few variations you can get by the looks of things.

An shame about the mags @DrAlexanderTabacco as I have a fair few of them 

Barrel length.

I had a look at the product specification for the Krytac PDW and (assuming you haven't already done so) swapping over from the standard 155mm 6.05mm barrel to a high quality tight bore barrel may help but this will also effect the FPS. The hop unit is your biggest factor when it comes to range and as such it might be worth looking at replacing the hop rubber for a higher quality bucking along with a better nub (if necessary).

Although 155mm is short there are ways of improving effective range but in this instance some with a more familiar with the technical side will be in a better position. I'd just like to reiterate that barre length doesn't necessitate range or accuracy, the bigger factor is having a good quality hop set up which is correctly dialled in.

Tokyo Marui P90.

Tokyo Marui's reputation is well earned and a lot of this stems from the build quality and the high quality control standards. I'm not sure what the compatibility situation is like for the Stanag Mag adaptor so this might be worth researching further. Admittedly I'm in the camp where a P90 rocking Stanag magazines is an abomination but it's players choice and I understand why some players pursue this option.

L85.

There are picattiny rail mounts available for the top of the receiver, at least for the ICS variant. The iron sights are actually pretty good but I'd suggest handling one if you get the opportunity to do so. My reference to rails was more focused on the RIS system from Daniel Defence (airsoft version made by Madbull if memory serves).

AUG Trigger.

The AUG trigger is a dual stage trigger, at approximately half pull it fires in semi and at full depression it will fire in full auto. The trigger system definitely requires discipline and semi only sites tend to disallow this (if they're aware of it) to prevent any risk of people slipping into full auto. There is a modification which can be performed to enforce semi-auto. - See additional information from Asomodai in relation to the TM AUG trigger.

MOSFETs.

There are various MOSFETs which can be fitted but these aren't always effective at resolving the "spongy" feel often reported.

I have a prome purple, which was going to go into my Predator but as. I'm selling it I won't be doing that. 

My only concern with replacing the hop rubber is that it increases my fps, I'm already borderline with it being stock using .25s so if I change the hop rubber and barrel I have a feeling I will be over the site fps limits. 

With regards to the Bullpup I think so far we can safely rule out the Tar21, however it's now being replaced with the AUG which is something I've always wanted even when playing Magfed paintball. 

The nearest I for though was the TGR Bullpup, but I sent it back as it weighed a tone and felt pound land cheap ?

 

[L3wisD]

PDR-C ?

 

[TommoThomson]

PDR-C ?

Thats like a P90 hybrid, the forgrip reminds me of the Hera one I had and is that a normal M4 mag in that?