Large Events in the UK

[Druid799]

Having been to NAE this year. I can agree with the above sentiment. 2000+ players for a 175 acre site is actually too many. Objectives were mostly trench warfare with little movement for most the day. 

It wasn't so much skill that won a team an objective as much as it was how many players from each team at the objective decided to go else where or do something else and thus led to a numbers disadvantage/advantage. 

Don't get me wrong, it's lots of fun but you don't go to NAE to "win" as you might at a skirmish game or more likely at a milsim. 

Click to shrink...

Thing is if your willing to say “f**k the team game plan I’m doing my own thing !” As me and my mate do every year then you can have a much better experience , example; last yr totally agree with you about the numbers it was like Waterloo at times you just had masses of players throwing them selves at heavily defended bases and getting wiped out by the truck load , BUT simply back track 60-70mtrs move parallel to the battle and come at them from a different direction and they didn’t have a scooby what was happening ! As at most scurmish days most players are totally focused on the 80 degree’s field of vision (same as a game on a tv screen) in front of them and TOTALLY oblivious to the other 280 degree’s of vision all around them ! So we just moved around the sides and rear of the big battles picking players off left right and center! Was funny as hell ??

But yea you don’t go there to have a ‘tactical’ experience , I go there to decompress from the real world have a good laugh with my best mate and to shift some unwanted guns’n’gear and see what bargains I can pick up as well .?

 

[Seth_Erebor]

It depends on what you consider to be a 'large event'.

The way I have seen airsoft is as a form of 'scenario walkon'

I began playing paintball just in time for the hey day of scenario paintball with events typically being run by players for players at their local site, these were generally one scenario event per month at various parts of the UK, these varied in scale and there were a very few 'big games'

For the past few years things contracted in size.  There was an organiser that tried to monopolise and take over the world, but went from well run games to overly hyped games, and with the recession people began to be more careful with how they spent their disposable income, most likely to be playing walk-ons locally and only travel to whats really worth it.

There are special cases such as hiring active Army training sites, that is novel at first but still needs a good quality organiser capable of keeping it fresh (let alone be able to take the financial risk of booking such a site and hoping people turn up or that you don't have your booking cancelled for Defence priorities)

We have had great paintball events on such sites, but other than Swynnerton have only been able to do so with specialist clear paint, and these sites are 'easier' to book for airsoft as the mess just needs to be swept away rather than cleaned away.

There two paintball big games that now also run airsoft alongside.  Paintfest / airfest by NPF and North Vs South by Warped.

They are well established organisers with Paintfest having run for 10 years.  The site NPF ran the first Hyperball tournament in the world in 1996, and the owner Ged Green has been running things since paintball came to the UK in the mid 80s.  He is also responsible for how modern tournament paintball is run having taught the Americans how to do it at Huntingdon Beach in 2003.

They have had airsoft on site for many years and added airfest alongside Paintfest two years ago.

Warped have been running North vs South at Swynnerton since approx 2008/2009?, and elsewhere for years before.

To run paintball on an Army site though Swynnerton is more 'rough' a training area than Copehill etc they have to take over the site in advance to set up and keep on site during the week after to fully clean up.

I'm one of those people who looked at other organisers and thought that I could do that too.  It's far from easy, and we run events in other peoples sites, and collaborated with other organisers.  We have run large and small games - hundreds of people and 6 to 8 people (the 6-8 were 'special experiences' with one-to-one.

There are people that I would trust and wouldn't trust to run different types and scales of events (and there are things that I would not be happy about committing us to do)

I've seen events go horribly wrong, with the ways those were managed being handled very differently.   One event destroyed a brand new group of organisers, their team and friendships.  A lot of money disappeared.  With pure luck there were no injuries resulting to very dangerous circumstances

This is a pretty spot on description of scenario paintball events.

The other issue is that 'normal marshals' may not be able to manage large rolling games as opposed to standard short games/skirmishes.   But that comes with experience.

We have run most of our games opening up the entire site, which changes the dynamics of a sites designed game zones, and often used site staff as the 'safety marshalls' and ourselves as 'event marshalls'

Click to shrink...

It depends on what you consider to be a 'large event'.

The way I have seen airsoft is as a form of 'scenario walkon'

I began playing paintball just in time for the hey day of scenario paintball with events typically being run by players for players at their local site, these were generally one scenario event per month at various parts of the UK, these varied in scale and there were a very few 'big games'

For the past few years things contracted in size.  There was an organiser that tried to monopolise and take over the world, but went from well run games to overly hyped games, and with the recession people began to be more careful with how they spent their disposable income, most likely to be playing walk-ons locally and only travel to whats really worth it.

There are special cases such as hiring active Army training sites, that is novel at first but still needs a good quality organiser capable of keeping it fresh (let alone be able to take the financial risk of booking such a site and hoping people turn up or that you don't have your booking cancelled for Defence priorities)

We have had great paintball events on such sites, but other than Swynnerton have only been able to do so with specialist clear paint, and these sites are 'easier' to book for airsoft as the mess just needs to be swept away rather than cleaned away.

There two paintball big games that now also run airsoft alongside.  Paintfest / airfest by NPF and North Vs South by Warped.

They are well established organisers with Paintfest having run for 10 years.  The site NPF ran the first Hyperball tournament in the world in 1996, and the owner Ged Green has been running things since paintball came to the UK in the mid 80s.  He is also responsible for how modern tournament paintball is run having taught the Americans how to do it at Huntingdon Beach in 2003.

They have had airsoft on site for many years and added airfest alongside Paintfest two years ago.

Warped have been running North vs South at Swynnerton since approx 2008/2009?, and elsewhere for years before.

To run paintball on an Army site though Swynnerton is more 'rough' a training area than Copehill etc they have to take over the site in advance to set up and keep on site during the week after to fully clean up.

I'm one of those people who looked at other organisers and thought that I could do that too.  It's far from easy, and we run events in other peoples sites, and collaborated with other organisers.  We have run large and small games - hundreds of people and 6 to 8 people (the 6-8 were 'special experiences' with one-to-one.

There are people that I would trust and wouldn't trust to run different types and scales of events (and there are things that I would not be happy about committing us to do)

I've seen events go horribly wrong, with the ways those were managed being handled very differently.   One event destroyed a brand new group of organisers, their team and friendships.  A lot of money disappeared.  With pure luck there were no injuries resulting to very dangerous circumstances

This is a pretty spot on description of scenario paintball events.

The other issue is that 'normal marshals' may not be able to manage large rolling games as opposed to standard short games/skirmishes.   But that comes with experience.

We have run most of our games opening up the entire site, which changes the dynamics of a sites designed game zones, and often used site staff as the 'safety marshalls' and ourselves as 'event marshalls'

Click to shrink...

All good points, have you ever seen Time Commanders? Good show, the latest season is very good, although opinion is divided.

I'd like to see something like that, I'm a true believer that players just need nudging in the right direction to make their own experience better.

What that means is that I'd rather see you have an extra tool to use then artificially put an obstacle in your way, use it or don't.

So when I look at an event the organisation should almost not be seen, blah blah Seth's ramblings, etc

Um, yeah, so Time Commanders, two teams in their own Ops Room directing a battle, cool concept.

Thing is if your willing to say “f**k the team game plan I’m doing my own thing !” As me and my mate do every year then you can have a much better experience , example; last yr totally agree with you about the numbers it was like Waterloo at times you just had masses of players throwing them selves at heavily defended bases and getting wiped out by the truck load , BUT simply back track 60-70mtrs move parallel to the battle and come at them from a different direction and they didn’t have a scooby what was happening ! As at most scurmish days most players are totally focused on the 80 degree’s field of vision (same as a game on a tv screen) in front of them and TOTALLY oblivious to the other 280 degree’s of vision all around them ! So we just moved around the sides and rear of the big battles picking players off left right and center! Was funny as hell ??

But yea you don’t go there to have a ‘tactical’ experience , I go there to decompress from the real world have a good laugh with my best mate and to shift some unwanted guns’n’gear and see what bargains I can pick up as well .?

Click to shrink...

That is typical of a large force with no CoC, as I said above if they have the tools then it's up to them to either be a useless ramble or proper oper8tors.

I might sound like I only want an uber milsim experience, but fun is always paramount. 

 

[Druid799]

That is typical of a large force with no CoC, as I said above if they have the tools then it's up to them to either be a useless ramble or proper oper8tors.

Click to shrink...

This is spot on mate BUT as I always bang on (and always will until proven different) it’s unachievable In airsoft and never will be achievable as long as beer tokens change hands to play , no matter how ‘mil-sim’ an event is and how realistic the command structure is it’ll never truly work because if A player has paid X amount of money to attend an event and there  ‘team leader’ say “you go over there sit in that bush and guard the rear of our base” you know very well the player who’s been told to basically sit on his arse all day and probably do F**k all all is going to turn round and more than likely tell the ‘commander’  “f**k that shit I haven’t paid £80 to sit on my arse and do nothing all day !” And to be fair I wouldn’t blame them either ! In the real world not everyone is a door kicker BUT when your paying good money to take part in an event everyone does want to be a door kicker so it just won’t work . 

Example ; again last year NAE a guy called Woodie is team leader for the others on more than one occasion I saw him tell players to go to point XYZ on the site to do this’n’that and I heard more than few head off muttering about “Bollox to that I’m going to ABC he can shove his XYZ !” 

 

[clumpyedge]

Best strategy would be to develop a field over time. Buy/rent land and build a good quality skirmish site and get good marshals to help build a good reputation. Then as finances allow, grow and expand the size of the site. 

I'd do it so each expansion was its own stand alone game field. E.G you could play a skirmish game on that one field and it's still be a good he field. But do so that when you combine all the fields into one big site. It's flows and plays well as a whole. 

The advantage doing to this was would be you could have a small core team of marshals on staff to run skirmish days every weekend and you'd just rotate between game fields each day/weekend. 

Then for big events were you use multiple or even all the game sites. You can hire in marshals and game leads for just those events instead of having them on staff all year round.

Would help keep finances reasonable since you can charge more for the large events (100+) for help pay for the extra staff etc and then the rest of the time. Your just a normal skirmish site with average skirmish prices (£20-30 per game day) with lots of game fields to choose from.

Click to shrink...

Have a look at combat airsoft Thetford, they do skirmish days or themed days and they open up the site to accommodate the game scenario much like you are talking about and they have an excellent marshaling team and player base (I don't work for them but I have enjoyed every single game I've played there on either big or small fields)

There are special cases such as hiring active Army training sites, that is novel at first but still needs a good quality organiser capable of keeping it fresh (let alone be able to take the financial risk of booking such a site and hoping people turn up or that you don't have your booking cancelled for Defence priorities)

We have had great paintball events on such sites, but other than Swynnerton have only been able to do so with specialist clear paint, and these sites are 'easier' to book for airsoft as the mess just needs to be swept away rather than cleaned away.

Click to shrink...

Having been a promoter at my local venue for a number of years taking a punt on bigger bands and getting bums in seats as they say certainly does make you bum pucker when booking starts or doors open for the event. that's where IMO starting small is always the best course of action build up your customer base and show what you can do and that should in theory draw in the numbers and the collateral to book larger events. I say this but there have been one or two airsoft organizers that have got this very wrong and having being told the bookings were in the stages of almost being sold out I turned up to one event (after an hour or so drive) to be told the game had cancelled because people failed to show.

This is spot on mate BUT as I always bang on (and always will until proven different) it’s unachievable In airsoft and never will be achievable as long as beer tokens change hands to play , no matter how ‘mil-sim’ an event is and how realistic the command structure is it’ll never truly work because if A player has paid X amount of money to attend an event and there  ‘team leader’ say “you go over there sit in that bush and guard the rear of our base” you know very well the player who’s been told to basically sit on his arse all day and probably do F**k all all is going to turn round and more than likely tell the ‘commander’  “f**k that shit I haven’t paid £80 to sit on my arse and do nothing all day !” And to be fair I wouldn’t blame them either ! In the real world not everyone is a door kicker BUT when your paying good money to take part in an event everyone does want to be a door kicker so it just won’t work . 

Example ; again last year NAE a guy called Woodie is team leader for the others on more than one occasion I saw him tell players to go to point XYZ on the site to do this’n’that and I heard more than few head off muttering about “Bollox to that I’m going to ABC he can shove his XYZ !” 

Click to shrink...

I paid to sit in a building majority of a weekend on overwatch and didn't fire my gun once but I guess like I think your'e saying you need to have the players with the right mind set for that type of game. I've said it numerous times before airsoft isn't just about shooting guns for some people/games sometimes its about immersing yourself in a story or a role (yes even at a skirmish to some extent!) and playing that role to the best of your ability (not just at milsims) which again in my opinion adds a whole other side to the game which for the vast majority is outside the remit of turn up, shoot, go home.

 

[Tommikka]

..,,, , no matter how ‘mil-sim’ an event is and how realistic the command structure is it’ll never truly work  .......,,

Click to shrink...

Everyone has their own definition of milsim.  From playing in the woods to fully orchestrated door kicking.  That means games  have to cater for everyone, and players have to recognise people are different 

Example ; again last year NAE a guy called Woodie is team leader for the others on more than one occasion I saw him tell players to go to point XYZ on the site to do this’n’that and I heard more than few head off muttering about “Bollox to that I’m going to ABC he can shove his XYZ !” 

Click to shrink...

I can see 3 people who are/could be at fault, (I don’t know the specifics of the example so now it’s Commander Billy at an ABC event.....)

Its the players fault.  Don’t walk off muttering to yourself that you won’t do the task you just accepted, let the commander know what type of thing you want to do - or that you don’t want to be sent to do anything, you’re just interested in wandering around and finding your kind of action

It’s commander Billy’s fault.  Leading is not about bossing people about, plan for different players and ask what they are after - do they want a sneaky mission, a fire fight, to be told what’s going on generally or to be told nothing, then they can do their own thing and you can allocate tasks to those who will want them

Its ABC events fault - They need to understand their customer 

A ‘big game’ or Scenario is not about opening up the whole of a skirmish site and putting more players onto it.  Standard mini games can’t just be scaled up.

The worst case is one big battle with a front line that may be nearer to one side of the field than the other.  Plan to have firefights, objectives that must be gained at one point but don’t have to be defended / held forever (eg award points for capture or holding at set time points, then have different objectives at different times in different places)

Keep game flow moving - but do make sure there are good firefight opportunities 

Have multiple objectives - whether at set times or things to find / do at any time (ideally both)

The Commander can set some plans, can hand out missions to fit the players looking for missions.  Specific objects can be searched for by scavengers or secret missions behind enemy lines -  to gain an advantage or build a super weapon. General objects can be collected by anyone who spots them, this can be just plastice bottles with coloured ‘toxic chemical’ water etc and is a balance for anyone who just wants to wander around shooting people, they can pick it up or ignore it.  Have them sent back to base etc - players can hand them to others heading back if they are super ninjas that never get eliminated.  Pile them up at base camp, then have Marshall’s count and put them back in field to be found again

For Scenario paintball I can construct a game design around a site, select from my various rule sets (and make up a couple of new rules to try out), and plan how to manipulate the game. *

For Airsoft it’s a different matter.  There are similarities but also differences, I don’t know the player mindset enough, I’ll leave that to others who are out there enough to have an idea what is and isn’t going to work for airsofters opening their wallet to play

* I think I can still do that!!!  We haven’t run a full scenario for a few years  and are going to go back to a ‘basic’ classic scenario one day game this year.  Ask me in October how that turns out!

 

[Tommikka]

PS the bit that I forgot

The game is not about winning or losing.  People would rather win then lose (but winning against a crap side is not winning)

If one side is winning all day long then it’s boring for them, and demoralising for the losing side

Good organisers will manipulate game flow, adding advantage to losers, making it harder for winners.  In extreme cases be ready to totally change missions - and plan a contingency in advance to allow that.  **

Balance out the game, watch if there are players that are unhappy (I don’t care if you’re a miserable git, but if an entire side is moaning then something’s gone badly wrong)

** the same goes for commanders.  At NvS there was a tradition of the South losing, one year the commander put in a whole command structure, handed out command radios on their own frequency, had his wife at respawn handing out maps and telling people where the action was, key objectives and sending the keen ones to the command bunker for missions

This broughtsucceafull missions all day and a win for the south.

But as a ‘sub commander I knew the contingency plan.  I wanted us to lose, because the plan was that he would pick up a mega phone, play the ‘Ride for the valkyries’ and walk clockwise around the site ..... southern players would be collected as he passed to build a force and lose by gunning down everyone in sight 

 

[Druid799]

I paid to sit in a building majority of a weekend on overwatch and didn't fire my gun once but I guess like I think your'e saying you need to have the players with the right mind set for that type of game. I've said it numerous times before airsoft isn't just about shooting guns for some people/games sometimes its about immersing yourself in a story or a role (yes even at a skirmish to some extent!) and playing that role to the best of your ability (not just at milsims) which again in my opinion adds a whole other side to the game which for the vast majority is outside the remit of turn up, shoot, go home.

Click to shrink...

To which I’d reply your the kind of player that can save an event because you ARE prepared to do it , but a lot won’t hence I said it’s unachievable not impossible to have a 100% realistic chain , you will get most at a themed event willing to follow orders (but again to various degrees) but ultimately I still don’t believe you ever will be able to get an event running as a truly realistic military simulation , BUT if players are happy with this then I do think keep them rolling along and as long as end of the day everyone’s going home happy then objective achieved ! ?

Everyone has their own definition of milsim.  From playing in the woods to fully orchestrated door kicking.  That means games  have to cater for everyone, and players have to recognise people are different 

Its the players fault.  Don’t walk off muttering to yourself that you won’t do the task you just accepted, let the commander know what type of thing you want to do - or that you don’t want to be sent to do anything, you’re just interested in wandering around and finding your kind of action

It’s commander Billy’s fault.  Leading is not about bossing people about, plan for different players and ask what they are after - do they want a sneaky mission, a fire fight, to be told what’s going on generally or to be told nothing, then they can do their own thing and you can allocate tasks to those who will want them

Its ABC events fault - They need to understand their customer 

A ‘big game’ or Scenario is not about opening up the whole of a skirmish site and putting more players onto it.  Standard mini games can’t just be scaled up.

The worst case is one big battle with a front line that may be nearer to one side of the field than the other.  Plan to have firefights, objectives that must be gained at one point but don’t have to be defended / held forever (eg award points for capture or holding at set time points, then have different objectives at different times in different places)

Click to shrink...

Totally agree , the few mil-sims I did go to I’d say yes the organisers had tried to structure the event to accommodate the various levels of player ‘immersion’ in the scenario but it’ll always just be off the mark , take for instance you always get the ‘order screamers’ Who hang back telling everyone what to do (immaterial if it’s there job or not !) now they can really cause an event to go down the pan ? and there just one of the many reasons I don’t think it can 100% work .

valid point if you are planning on playing your own game either be honest and tell the ‘team leader’ or hang at the back of the briefing so you do know what the objectives are but don’t let your self be allocated tasks if your NOT going to comply with what you’ve been told/asked to do (which is what I do) that way hopefully your not going to adversely effect the game objectives .

Yes and no , don’t boss the players around (they have paid to be there , not BEEN paid to be there) 

asking what they want from the game ? To an extent yes as in “ok we need to take this base so we’ll split in to three teams , assaulters/overwatch/scouts so players can slide them selves in to which group they think suits there expectations asking on a more personal levels going take up too much time .

I’d say this event has got it right , there are missions and objectives through the day but equally if you do just want to wonder aimlessly throughout the site you can and the whole event isn’t going to implode if the game plan isn’t followed to the letter . When you have an event of this size with this many players of such varied levels of experience and expectations once the gameday actually starts all you can do Is just let it run its self , no way can your really control it , you may be able to ‘steer’ it in a particular direction but not control it .

Its an old cliche but I do think it’s 100% spot on , controlling airsofters is like herding cats ! ?

?

 

[clumpyedge]

To which I’d reply your the kind of player that can save an event because you ARE prepared to do it , but a lot won’t hence I said it’s unachievable not impossible to have a 100% realistic chain , you will get most at a themed event willing to follow orders (but again to various degrees) but ultimately I still don’t believe you ever will be able to get an event running as a truly realistic military simulation , BUT if players are happy with this then I do think keep them rolling along and as long as end of the day everyone’s going home happy then objective achieved ! 

Click to shrink...

Prime example on a weekend long game - Stag. Yes its shit standing there for a few hours on guard but if you are with the right person its never really that bad, I've had some right laughs standing in sangers at longmoor and copehill at 3am and sometimes the best firefights come at that sort of time (usually while I've been brewing a coffee or trying to scoff some food & if opfor haven't gone to bed haha!) being on opfor the night time is certainly when the action happens as on some events Ive been to one of the objectives has been running disruption to the bluefor night routine which in turn gives the people on stag something to think about!

IMO for anyone who plays airsoft there is some aspect of wanting to play soldiers be it skirmish or more organized event everyone plays a role. You see people all the time naturally starting to play as a team and work through objectives which isn't much different to what Ive mentioned above just with a bit more discipline (which i use in the loosest of terms) I think to get games like this and the structure of play to work takes doing things like battlesims (if you want to section play styles off - the more organized skirmish) then introduce people to Milsims roles and rules slowly through that.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

 At NvS there was a tradition of the South losing, one year the commander put in a whole command structure, handed out command radios on their own frequency, had his wife at respawn handing out maps and telling people where the action was, key objectives and sending the keen ones to the command bunker for missions

This brought successful missions all day and a win for the south.

Click to shrink...

nice

 

[Vulpiness]

Well there’s not a lot you can change really , you’ve got a fake gun that fires plastic BBs by the use of compressed air or gas and you shoot it at another person who’s doing the same to you to try and eliminate each other from a roaming game ?

Bit difficult to change the format one would think ? ?

Click to shrink...

I would have hopped that airsoft came up with some new and interesting ideas, vehicles for one. I mean how hard is it replicate a tank without the expensive bits? It's just tracks and steel. 

I've seen command structures that "work". But you gotta have an "opt in" method, with most of the people don't want that.

We also have to realize, we're the UK. We don't have allot of territory, and if if we did, people wouldn't be used to it, people in the US are used to flying for 3 hours to get to the east coast or driving for 5 to get to the next state, we ain't, and that affects player numbers, we're just not going to get the numbers, 3,4,5,000 that's achievable, but 10? not a chance.  

One day we might see 20,000 airsoft players at an event, but it'd have to be a worldwide, thing.

airsoft is an expensive hobby, hopefully it;'ll get cheaper, but that will take time, but until then, we're looking at a cap on UK players. 

Personally I wanna be bosed, it adds to the imersesions. 

 

[Druid799]

Personally I wanna be bosed, it adds to the imersesions. 

Click to shrink...

There’s some ladies out there that’ll do that for you if the price is right ? ???

 

[Vulpiness]

There’s some ladies out there that’ll do that for you if the price is right ? ???

Click to shrink...

There's also a whole community of people who'll do it for free.  Trust me on this. 

But if you're into that, i only charge £35/hr

 

[Druid799]

There's also a whole community of people who'll do it for free.  Trust me on this. 

But if you're into that, i only charge £35/hr

Click to shrink...

Nah I’m ok mate , I’ve got a wife she tells me what to do all the time .?

 

[Seth_Erebor]

I would have hopped that airsoft came up with some new and interesting ideas, vehicles for one. I mean how hard is it replicate a tank without the expensive bits? It's just tracks and steel. 

I've seen command structures that "work". But you gotta have an "opt in" method, with most of the people don't want that.

We also have to realize, we're the UK. We don't have allot of territory, and if if we did, people wouldn't be used to it, people in the US are used to flying for 3 hours to get to the east coast or driving for 5 to get to the next state, we ain't, and that affects player numbers, we're just not going to get the numbers, 3,4,5,000 that's achievable, but 10? not a chance.  

One day we might see 20,000 airsoft players at an event, but it'd have to be a worldwide, thing.

airsoft is an expensive hobby, hopefully it;'ll get cheaper, but that will take time, but until then, we're looking at a cap on UK players. 

Personally I wanna be bosed, it adds to the imersesions. 

Click to shrink...

It isn't... and around £40k, initially anyway and if you know the right people you can make a rather beastly machine. Or so I'm told ?

One of the many reasons I wish I was stateside but give it time, patience is a virtue I often remind myself.

 

[Vulpiness]

It isn't... and around £40k, initially anyway and if you know the right people you can make a rather beastly machine. Or so I'm told ?

One of the many reasons I wish I was stateside but give it time, patience is a virtue I often remind myself.

Click to shrink...

It is it is if you earn minimum wage. 

£40k seems way too steep, get an ex-soviet one for £12,000

I mean seriously, all you need is a small engine, a big tube, and the tracks, wheels, suspension, drive shaft and then it's just wood and steel It won't top 10mph for safety reason anyway. 

I was once quoted £12,000 for a fucking ejector seat from a prop company. 

It's mad. 

 

[Mad Rag]

this thread has broken my small brain

 

[Seth_Erebor]

It is it is if you earn minimum wage. 

£40k seems way too steep, get an ex-soviet one for £12,000

I mean seriously, all you need is a small engine, a big tube, and the tracks, wheels, suspension, drive shaft and then it's just wood and steel It won't top 10mph for safety reason anyway. 

I was once quoted £12,000 for a fucking ejector seat from a prop company. 

It's mad. 

Click to shrink...

True, but you have to consider availability of parts, safety and longevity.

It might still work out cheaper going old tho

 

[widowmak3r1989]

been playing just as long. Airsoft has gone from extremely niche to just very niche. As a sport there really aren't that many people playing relatively speaking hardly any airsoft companies have the infrastructure or resources to put on large events.  

Click to shrink...

BigStew I've been playing 15 years and i remember when it was a extremely niche sport and i went to the NAE in 2007 when it was like 600/700 plays who where going then and now its like 2000-3000 players. it has boomed the last few years. 

 

[Seth_Erebor]

BigStew I've been playing 15 years and i remember when it was a extremely niche sport and i went to the NAE in 2007 when it was like 600/700 plays who where going then and now its like 2000-3000 players. it has boomed the last few years. 

Click to shrink...

Room for a lot more growth, I feel.

The culture and look of the average Airsofter will change.

 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

GZ is a massive site and has been going for ages too, as others have mentioned it has built up over time. Maybe the NAE is the only thing like it cause it was the first thing like it? 

Personally I'm more excited about the prospect of smaller games at 'pop up' sites, a bit like what Spartan Airsoft are doing in Chippenhan.