HELP! HPA or AEG!?

[Reidfc]

So.

I joined around 2 years ago and have build 3 guns up with changed every single piece of an aeg possible. Short stroking, finding leaks, shimming is pretty good now.

However, AEG’s have a trade off for trigger response and volume you can get through the barrel without losing cylinder volume when short stroking.

I absolutely love the quietness of HPA and have seen that you can get a Wraith X which gets rid of the stupid lines ect.

I only play outdoor, never use fully auto but don’t play DMR or sniper. I like how you can change the FPS easily and play anysite across the country. I use around 3000 bb’s I would say as the games are large and it can be windy is Scotland so need a few extra rounds to feel for the wind.

Considering selling a brushless build that I could easily get 300-350 for to put towards a HPA gun.

QUESTIONS!

- Anyone that’s made the swap?
- Are you happy?
- Is it really worth the extra money?
- Do most site full HPA at half time for a fee?
- is it worth buying a compressor?

Any help appreciated, much thanks everyone!

 

[Cannonfodder]

I can't help with the other questions but most sites can fill bottles. Some will do it for free but I've seen other sites charge up to a fiver.

 

[Impulse]

- Anyone that’s made the swap?

Click to shrink...

I have an expensive Wolverine MTW 308 Unleashed with a bunch of real-steel attachments, as well as a m14 and VSR converted to HPA with a Wolverine Hydra and Wolverine Bolt respectively. They all shoot stupidly well.

- Are you happy?

Click to shrink...

Not really. It's too short for me to like it as a DMR. 13" handguard with a 14.5" barrel and .308 mags isn't a DMR, it's a battle rifle. There's a 1.5" outer barrel extender to make it a more acceptable 16", but then it pokes weirdly far out of the handguard. I don't like the m14 because I hate the external line and tank. And I don't like the VSR because my Tanaka m700s are way more fun and just as quiet, and my SRS is just as quiet and just as consistent without the need to swap out co2 bulbs

- Is it really worth the extra money?

Click to shrink...

In my opinion? No. A well-tuned AEG will shoot just as well and for cheaper. The only thing you gain with HPA is that it's quieter than an AEG, and you can change the power easily, but the trade off is an annoying line and tank, or the need to swap out co2 bulbs or a limited number of shots from a 13ci tank if you're using an HPA stock instead. If you're not interested in DMR or sniper stuff, basically every site in the country operates on a 1.14J limit (some go to 1.29J, but they're incredibly rare and the difference is negligible), so being able to change power easily doesn't make a difference. It's mostly useful for DMRs where limits can go between 1.48J, 1.64J, 1.88J and 2.32J, but even then there are AEGs with quick change springs. They're not as easy to swap as it is to adjust a regulator, but they're still rather easy to swap out.

- Do most site full HPA at half time for a fee?

Click to shrink...

Both sites I go to regularly offer HPA refills. One charges £5, one is free.

- is it worth buying a compressor?

Click to shrink...

If you go all in on the HPA route, especially if using the regular 48ci tanks, yes. If you're going to use an HPA stock, it's not worth it because either you're buying co2 bulbs, or you're filling a 13ci tank which I've always done with a PCP air rifle hand pump. Filling a 13ci tank by hand is a bit of exercise and isn't too bad, but filling a 48ci tank by hand is... quite the endeavour. Trust me, talking from experience...

 

[Tommikka]

For the last question on a compressor, I would generally say no.

However, the options around personal compressors have widened, and can be viable for a reasonable price.
You do need to understand what you are buying, read the manual, look after it etc

The initial ones for home use operated as a booster, you needed two compressors - first a "workshop" compressor that feeds toa second "shoe box" to boost up to 3000psi/4500psi. ( the Tom Kaye shoebox compressor was a well known arrival on the paintball scene many years ago.)
This type would be very slow, noisy and easily overheats

There are now "compact" compressors for the home market that can do the whole job in one go, still noisy, relatively slow compared to a professional system, and can suffer from overheating depending on its throughput.

(A common workaround to the overheating is to remove the outter case, which makes it more noisy, exposes the workings etc),



The two "better" options for self fill systems are a stirrup pump (gives you muscles) or a scuba cylinder (then you buy fills at a dive shop to cascade into your playing cylinder later)
Stirrup pumps are reasonable for a 3000psi compact 13ci cylinder, but much more work for a 48ci cylinder

Note that first you have to pump the stirrup up to the cylinders current pressure before it opens the cylinder valve (not usually much pumping as you are presuriising the hose length)
Once open you are then covering the size of the cylinder, so each pump has less overall effect. Don't disconnect for a break,.

With scuba you will lose pressure in the scuba cylinder with every fill as they equalise each time.


For both stirrups and scuba you want to be topping up often rather than filling, stirrups because of the amount of pumps you need to do each time, scubas because of the equalisation drop.





NOTE - ALL SOLUTIONS SHOULD BE MAINTAINED AND FILTERED
The worst case scenario of an unfiltered fill is a flash fill explosion due to contamination & heat ..... but not necessarily happening to the home fill user, but to an unsuspecting player when passing on the contamination at a site fill (That happened in the South in the 2000s)
The best case scenarios are that contamination clogs up the cylinder regulator or blow the burst disk

 

[Tommikka]

Regarding sites charging for fills, in paintball we expect free HPA fills on game days (provided the site is aimed for own gunners)

In airsoft it can depend on the site - even if the site runs paintball and airsoft they may choose to charge on airsoft days on the basis that compressors cost money to run bot with the diesel required and the maintenance being required based on the hours it runs. If there are only a handful of HPA airsofters thats a relatively high expense on the day

A site is most likely to have a compressor and cascade system passing through a series of large cylinders, in which case the compressor is not running during fills. If they have air in the system at pressure then they are more likely to be happy to give free fills to the one or two HPA players, but that assumes it is at pressure. If they ran paintball last week then they won't have kept it fully pressurised late in the day, with enough to top up the last players for final games but ending up with low pressure in the cylinders until they power up the compressor again.

HPA systems are cheaper in the long term than delivered CO2, but have a high upfront cost and ongoing maintenance.





Ask the site or sites you are likely to play at

 

[Reidfc]

I can't help with the other questions but most sites can fill bottles. Some will do it for free but I've seen other sites charge up to a fiver.

Click to shrink...

A fiver for air thanks for the reply!

 

[Reidfc]

I have an expensive Wolverine MTW 308 Unleashed with a bunch of real-steel attachments, as well as a m14 and VSR converted to HPA with a Wolverine Hydra and Wolverine Bolt respectively. They all shoot stupidly well.



Not really. It's too short for me to like it as a DMR. 13" handguard with a 14.5" barrel and .308 mags isn't a DMR, it's a battle rifle. There's a 1.5" outer barrel extender to make it a more acceptable 16", but then it pokes weirdly far out of the handguard. I don't like the m14 because I hate the external line and tank. And I don't like the VSR because my Tanaka m700s are way more fun and just as quiet, and my SRS is just as quiet and just as consistent without the need to swap out co2 bulbs



In my opinion? No. A well-tuned AEG will shoot just as well and for cheaper. The only thing you gain with HPA is that it's quieter than an AEG, and you can change the power easily, but the trade off is an annoying line and tank, or the need to swap out co2 bulbs or a limited number of shots from a 13ci tank if you're using an HPA stock instead. If you're not interested in DMR or sniper stuff, basically every site in the country operates on a 1.14J limit (some go to 1.29J, but they're incredibly rare and the difference is negligible), so being able to change power easily doesn't make a difference. It's mostly useful for DMRs where limits can go between 1.48J, 1.64J, 1.88J and 2.32J, but even then there are AEGs with quick change springs. They're not as easy to swap as it is to adjust a regulator, but they're still rather easy to swap out.



Both sites I go to regularly offer HPA refills. One charges £5, one is free.



If you go all in on the HPA route, especially if using the regular 48ci tanks, yes. If you're going to use an HPA stock, it's not worth it because either you're buying co2 bulbs, or you're filling a 13ci tank which I've always done with a PCP air rifle hand pump. Filling a 13ci tank by hand is a bit of exercise and isn't too bad, but filling a 48ci tank by hand is... quite the endeavour. Trust me, talking from experience...

Click to shrink...

This is some really great insight thank you! Good point about DMR’s especially. The range in power limits across sites would make that definitely a win for HPA.

 

[Reidfc]

For the last question on a compressor, I would generally say no.

However, the options around personal compressors have widened, and can be viable for a reasonable price.
You do need to understand what you are buying, read the manual, look after it etc

The initial ones for home use operated as a booster, you needed two compressors - first a "workshop" compressor that feeds toa second "shoe box" to boost up to 3000psi/4500psi. ( the Tom Kaye shoebox compressor was a well known arrival on the paintball scene many years ago.)
This type would be very slow, noisy and easily overheats

There are now "compact" compressors for the home market that can do the whole job in one go, still noisy, relatively slow compared to a professional system, and can suffer from overheating depending on its throughput.

(A common workaround to the overheating is to remove the outter case, which makes it more noisy, exposes the workings etc),



The two "better" options for self fill systems are a stirrup pump (gives you muscles) or a scuba cylinder (then you buy fills at a dive shop to cascade into your playing cylinder later)
Stirrup pumps are reasonable for a 3000psi compact 13ci cylinder, but much more work for a 48ci cylinder

Note that first you have to pump the stirrup up to the cylinders current pressure before it opens the cylinder valve (not usually much pumping as you are presuriising the hose length)
Once open you are then covering the size of the cylinder, so each pump has less overall effect. Don't disconnect for a break,.

With scuba you will lose pressure in the scuba cylinder with every fill as they equalise each time.


For both stirrups and scuba you want to be topping up often rather than filling, stirrups because of the amount of pumps you need to do each time, scubas because of the equalisation drop.





NOTE - ALL SOLUTIONS SHOULD BE MAINTAINED AND FILTERED
The worst case scenario of an unfiltered fill is a flash fill explosion due to contamination & heat ..... but not necessarily happening to the home fill user, but to an unsuspecting player when passing on the contamination at a site fill (That happened in the South in the 2000s)
The best case scenarios are that contamination clogs up the cylinder regulator or blow the burst disk

Click to shrink...

So it is pheasable to have 3 or 4 13ci tanks for a wraith X stock and fill them the night before maybe?

I have seen a few videos on the compressors and it does seem like you need to be on the ball with overheating ect.

 

[Reidfc]

Regarding sites charging for fills, in paintball we expect free HPA fills on game days (provided the site is aimed for own gunners)

In airsoft it can depend on the site - even if the site runs paintball and airsoft they may choose to charge on airsoft days on the basis that compressors cost money to run bot with the diesel required and the maintenance being required based on the hours it runs. If there are only a handful of HPA airsofters thats a relatively high expense on the day

A site is most likely to have a compressor and cascade system passing through a series of large cylinders, in which case the compressor is not running during fills. If they have air in the system at pressure then they are more likely to be happy to give free fills to the one or two HPA players, but that assumes it is at pressure. If they ran paintball last week then they won't have kept it fully pressurised late in the day, with enough to top up the last players for final games but ending up with low pressure in the cylinders until they power up the compressor again.

HPA systems are cheaper in the long term than delivered CO2, but have a high upfront cost and ongoing maintenance.





Ask the site or sites you are likely to play at

Click to shrink...

Thanks man, I guess you’re right you have to kind of get over the initial set up costs then you’re all good.

 

[Reidfc]

In my opinion? No. A well-tuned AEG will shoot just as well and for cheaper.

Click to shrink...

I just feel it takes a lot more skill and stress on a gearbox to get close to distance with trigger response with more maintenance too if you get me?

 

[Ajax]

To add penny from my experience. Hill Mk5 pump 0-3000psi 48ci total 60min of pumping with 2 breaks. The last 1000psi was quite good work out. 0-3000psi 13ci 20 min in one go. Again last 1000psi nice work out. So it is doable. In the future I may look at the new umarex compressors but it is not an urgent purchase in my view. The pump will serve me well for quite a while.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

In my opinion? No. A well-tuned AEG will shoot just as well and for cheaper.

Click to shrink...

I'd say this is 99% right.

As in a well dialled aeg can get to 99% of a well dialled hpa rig.

Wether that 1% is worth the tank/reg/line faff is down to personal preference.

That said, hpa isnt a magic bullet and a sub optimal build or engine can and will absolutely be outperformed by even a moderately decent aeg build let alone a good aeg build.

The only thing you get thats guaranteed is the trigger response, which whilst it sure feels nice, isnt actually going to make a difference in game if you play around it and especially now that modern mosfets and brushless motors have eaten the response times of aegs.

 

[Tommikka]

So it is pheasable to have 3 or 4 13ci tanks for a wraith X stock and fill them the night before maybe?

Click to shrink...

Yes
I don’t know about air efficiency in Airsoft nor the amount of air needed for a days play, but…..

Airsoft should be air efficient on HPA, you’re pushing a smaller BB through a narrower barrel than paintball.
Paintballs older mechanical designs are not air efficient, and the relatively newer electronic systems with internal low pressures are probably similar in efficiency at the chamber as Airsoft - other than the requirements of the relative size difference

A low capacity shooter with an efficient gun can last long enough on a 13ci in paintball, I would still top up during the day but it’s full as soon as the fill system is flicked on
I would hazard a guess that one 13ci to play and one put aside would give you a decent day out in Airsoft - if the first was running down too fast then for that first day you could slow your trigger finger to last out then buy another as required


If you go down the stirrup route then a handful of 13cis are in theory easier to fill than a 48ci …… in theory because I have a stirrup pump but also it’s only ever been used by team minions that were told to pump so I only have personal experience of pumping as a little top up

A side benefit of 13ci over 48ci is that they are exempt from hydro testing, meaning they can be used forever as long as they remain physically sound

 

[The_Lord_Poncho]

I understand from others (i've never tested it myself) that a 48Ci tank will usually comfortably manage between 1000 and 1400 shots. Obviously there are loads of variables, but as a rough guide for a rifle with a dedicated HPA system (e.g. rather than something short barrelled or a converted GBB) that’s probably a good giuide

 

[Hatchet]

To state the obvious, if you can, try before you buy.

I've had a go on a couple (including @Impulse 's DMR that he was kind enough to let me run for half a day) and though I love the idea of the silence I just find the experience of shooting it a bit meh. c02 bulbs are passable for a DMR, but constant changing on an AEG might be a pain and the line/tank may or may not be an issue depending on the sort of environment you need to crawl through (is it going to get hung up all the time, etc).
The 13ci stocks seem like a plan, but trying one in the shop I just found it bulky and awkward.

I've also had a Mancraft VSR, a polarstar F2, Wolverine SMP and currently have a Mancraft SRS. Both worked fine, although you still have the line issue to deal with. I only went for the HPA on the SRS as my elbow was wrecked.

Would still consider HPA for bolt guns, specific silent build or possible vehicle mounted MG where you can run dive cylinders, but other than that I'd probably stick with an AEG/recoil.

Can't answer the compressor question. But would consider a dive cylinder that you can get topped up (depending what you have available to you in the area).

 

[Adolf Hamster]

A note on the silence: in a regular skirmish, it's at best only good for whoever you just tagged to dander back to spawn and come back to hunt you down.

At worst the guy you just tagged makes it super obvious where it came from and you get immediate retribution from his buddies.