Guns You Know Are Bad but You Love Them Anyway

[PopRocket123]

Kind of the opposite of of a recent thread, what's a gun that you absolutely love even though you know it's bad. Maybe you live the look but the performance is terrible, it's impractical for airsoft out maybe deep down you just know that it's not worth the money you've spent in it. I'll start. 

LMGs. They're big, they're heavy and they're generally pretty poorly designed. You spend £400-500 on the gun plus a box mag, plus upgrades and it won't perform any better than an ARP with a drum mag. But God DAMN does it feel good to be the guy with the big gun, at least until lunch time. 

MP7s. On paper they're the perfect airsoft gun. They have just the right barrel length, just the right amount of modularity and they look so cool. But airsoft companies just can't seem to get them right. The full sized ones generally perform ok at best and while the TM is pretty good they all seem to suffer with durability issues. Not that any of this is going to stop me from getting one, I just need to work out which one is with the investment. 

Finally DMRs. You spend all this extra money for maybe 10-20 extra metres and in return you get limited by your rof and med. Won't stop me spending way too much on my SCAR though. 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

hey you stole my idea!!!! ????

j/k

i do agree on most lmg's, of all the ones i've seen/used the pkm seems to be the most useful of the heavy bunch, or at least the only one i've used that was worth holding onto rather than setting it down and running around with a pistol.

haven't used enough mp7's to comment one way or the other.

for me (sorry in advance @Asomodai ) but it's bullpups. my first pew was a g&g f2000 and whilst i loved it the moment i expanded into collecting "normal" rifles i just couldn't use it the same after that and the only time she ever got fielded was when i felt guilty for not having fielded her for ages.

i think the issue is that the advantages that bullpups have are very specific to a modern mechanised army and don't really add benefit either as a RS civilian shooter (where barrel length for velocity/terminal ballistics isn't a big concern) or in airsoft (where barrel length is mostly meaningless), but the downsides of awkward handling and awful triggers are more noticable.

but i still think they're cool, and thanks to a certain mustachioed youtuber i currently want an airsoft vhs2 even though i know it'll probably be terrible and anyone who releases an affordable groza will be forgiven for any and all sins.

the WE makarov, i still stand by my position of it being by far the best airsoft makarov on the market, and yes it can be made to have excellent range/accuracy for a pistol, but the gas efficiency is, well, isn't and you can forget using it in winter (if i'm honest late autumn/early spring too) as anything other than a holster filler. and it does wear out quickly unlike tm's ending up all rattly, out of the box it won't lift anything heavier than .2's, the hop design may be excellent but the tiny ass range of adjustment it has meaning you gotta shim it for a very narrow range of ammo weight, the range on super heavies might be hilarious but you'll be swapping bulged nozzles pretty much every other mag, the piston head is WE's godawful hard plastic, and the paint finish just isn't as nice as it could be and the sights are terrible. but all that said it's still a lovely handling pistol with both that comblock charm and that sort-of-a-ppk bond cool and it's awesome and i love it and i kinda regret selling mine even if i hardly ever used it.

also, (contraversial) the m4 (well, ar15 derivative rifle)......

nothing to do with the ergonomics/handling/myriad of parts available for tinkering meaning you can lego build a platform exactly to your needs. but as a gun to work on they are bloody awful. getting the gearbox out of one is such a massive massive pain in the arse compared to many other designs on the market especially so when you have bolt releases, fake dust covers, ambi mag catches etc to mess around with in the dissassembly. the pistol grip also being the motor cage is a shit design which i'm thankful they learned their lesson on.

as an example- to remove the gearbox from my last m4 (e&c body but most of the points apply to any variant) you had to pop off the upper (with the whole charging handle shimmy that entails and checking nothing fell out/went sproing), remove the buttstock (which needed pliers), punch out the pin on the bolt release to remove it and allow the unscrewing of the mag release, remove the bottom of the grip, pull the contacts off the motor and remove that, fish around the bottom of the grip to get those screws undone followed by fishing around the stock tube to unscrew that bolt (which is worse trying to line up for reassembly) then shake the gun around to fish out the section that joins the stock bolt to the stock (whilst being thankful it's not one of those ones where it isn't removable and you have a tiny tiny ass hole to feed the wires through), remove the clip from the rear body pin then remove the rear body pin then punch out the trigger pin and after all that you can now start the process of wiggling the gearbox out of the gun.

whereas an e&l akm? pop top cover, remove bolt guide and fake bolt (all toolless so far) 2 nuts for the magwell spacer, 3 bolts for the hop, slide hop forward, one bolt to pull off the selector lever, one bolt for the grip then just wiggle the box out.

or the aforementioned g&g f2000? pop the buttplate, 2 bolts, wiggle gearbox out the back.

but goddamn an m4 when setup nice (read: not covered in 3 tonns of unnessecary crap) is a hell of a rifle to use.

 

[PopRocket123]

hey you stole my idea!!!! ????

j/k

i do agree on most lmg's, of all the ones i've seen/used the pkm seems to be the most useful of the heavy bunch, or at least the only one i've used that was worth holding onto rather than setting it down and running around with a pistol.

haven't used enough mp7's to comment one way or the other.

for me (sorry in advance @Asomodai ) but it's bullpups. my first pew was a g&g f2000 and whilst i loved it the moment i expanded into collecting "normal" rifles i just couldn't use it the same after that and the only time she ever got fielded was when i felt guilty for not having fielded her for ages.

i think the issue is that the advantages that bullpups have are very specific to a modern mechanised army and don't really add benefit either as a RS civilian shooter (where barrel length for velocity/terminal ballistics isn't a big concern) or in airsoft (where barrel length is mostly meaningless), but the downsides of awkward handling and awful triggers are more noticable.

but i still think they're cool, and thanks to a certain mustachioed youtuber i currently want an airsoft vhs2 even though i know it'll probably be terrible and anyone who releases an affordable groza will be forgiven for any and all sins.

the WE makarov, i still stand by my position of it being by far the best airsoft makarov on the market, and yes it can be made to have excellent range/accuracy for a pistol, but the gas efficiency is, well, isn't and you can forget using it in winter (if i'm honest late autumn/early spring too) as anything other than a holster filler. and it does wear out quickly unlike tm's ending up all rattly, out of the box it won't lift anything heavier than .2's, the hop design may be excellent but the tiny ass range of adjustment it has meaning you gotta shim it for a very narrow range of ammo weight, the range on super heavies might be hilarious but you'll be swapping bulged nozzles pretty much every other mag, the piston head is WE's godawful hard plastic, and the paint finish just isn't as nice as it could be and the sights are terrible. but all that said it's still a lovely handling pistol with both that comblock charm and that sort-of-a-ppk bond cool and it's awesome and i love it and i kinda regret selling mine even if i hardly ever used it.

also, (contraversial) the m4 (well, ar15 derivative rifle)......

nothing to do with the ergonomics/handling/myriad of parts available for tinkering meaning you can lego build a platform exactly to your needs. but as a gun to work on they are bloody awful. getting the gearbox out of one is such a massive massive pain in the arse compared to many other designs on the market especially so when you have bolt releases, fake dust covers, ambi mag catches etc to mess around with in the dissassembly. the pistol grip also being the motor cage is a shit design which i'm thankful they learned their lesson on.

as an example- to remove the gearbox from my last m4 (e&c body but most of the points apply to any variant) you had to pop off the upper (with the whole charging handle shimmy that entails and checking nothing fell out/went sproing), remove the buttstock (which needed pliers), punch out the pin on the bolt release to remove it and allow the unscrewing of the mag release, remove the bottom of the grip, pull the contacts off the motor and remove that, fish around the bottom of the grip to get those screws undone followed by fishing around the stock tube to unscrew that bolt (which is worse trying to line up for reassembly) then shake the gun around to fish out the section that joins the stock bolt to the stock (whilst being thankful it's not one of those ones where it isn't removable and you have a tiny tiny ass hole to feed the wires through), remove the clip from the rear body pin then remove the rear body pin then punch out the trigger pin and after all that you can now start the process of wiggling the gearbox out of the gun.

whereas an e&l akm? pop top cover, remove bolt guide and fake bolt (all toolless so far) 2 nuts for the magwell spacer, 3 bolts for the hop, slide hop forward, one bolt to pull off the selector lever, one bolt for the grip then just wiggle the box out.

or the aforementioned g&g f2000? pop the buttplate, 2 bolts, wiggle gearbox out the back.

but goddamn an m4 when setup nice (read: not covered in 3 tonns of unnessecary crap) is a hell of a rifle to use.

I'm with you on the VHS-2. I've wanted one for a while and that video reminded me of how cool it looks.

You're right, M4s are the worst to work on. I've kept mine as simple as possible. No fake bolt, no writing bolt release, no ambi selector. I've come close to cutting off the ring on the gearbox for the mag release and working out a printed solution. So to take the gearbox out I only have to take off the upper, buffer tube and grip. The G&P also fixes some issues like the wobbly outer barrel, sorting gearbox alignment and retained receiver pins. 

 

[Mr. No_Face]

MP7s. On paper they're the perfect airsoft gun. They have just the right barrel length, just the right amount of modularity and they look so cool. But airsoft companies just can't seem to get them right. The full sized ones generally perform ok at best and while the TM is pretty good they all seem to suffer with durability issues. Not that any of this is going to stop me from getting one, I just need to work out which one is with the investment. 

Finally DMRs. You spend all this extra money for maybe 10-20 extra metres and in return you get limited by your rof and med. Won't stop me spending way too much on my SCAR though. 

If you're into AEGs  I'd recommend the VFC MP7 Gen 2. it's 1:1 scale and all the previous issues found in the old gen versions seem to have been addressed. 

Not only that but it doesn't have that whiney sound in a lot of AEGs. In fact it has a satisfying base'y zip to it. Only problem is they are hardly ever in stock and never last long when they are.

 

[PopRocket123]

If you're into AEGs  I'd recommend the VFC MP7 Gen 2. it's 1:1 scale and all the previous issues found in the old gen versions seem to have been addressed. 

Not only that but it doesn't have that whiney sound in a lot of AEGs. In fact it has a satisfying base'y zip to it. Only problem is they are hardly ever in stock and never last long when they are.

I'd love one at some point but they're not cheap. My next purchase is a TAC-41 so maybe next year lol. I'm happy to hear that the gen 2 fixes the problems. In the mean time I should really finish this thing I came up with after the initial disappoint of the gen 1

View attachment 76045

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I'm with you on the VHS-2. I've wanted one for a while and that video reminded me of how cool it looks.

yeah, i first met it in arma 3, it's a cool looking rifle although the length of pull Ian highlights is one of the issues with bullpups.

You're right, M4s are the worst to work on. I've kept mine as simple as possible. No fake bolt, no writing bolt release, no ambi selector. I've come close to cutting off the ring on the gearbox for the mag release and working out a printed solution. So to take the gearbox out I only have to take off the upper, buffer tube and grip. The G&P also fixes some issues like the wobbly outer barrel, sorting gearbox alignment and retained receiver pins. 

i'm sure there's worse out there, been a while since i worked on an m14 but i have vague recollections of that being a pain in the ass.

but given how commonly they're recommended as a starter gun i do find myself wondering for newcomers into tinkering if an ak wouldn't be a more sensible choice.

 

[Cannonfodder]

My cyma M4. Cheap plastic that beaks easily (the rear sling point snapped under its own weight) a body that creaks worse than my back, and that's wobbly as hell and an fps that varies by up 15. Despite all that I still love using it

 

[Rogerborg]

Tri-shotguns.  You can tell yourself that the instant trigger response and BBs spread are an advantage, but at ranges where the response matters, the spread is minimal, and at ranges where you get spread, you could put a lot more BBs downrange with any auto or fully-semi-automatic AEG or gas gun.

They're still hella satisfying when you get a hit, but that's from putting in the effort, not because they're particularly effective.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Tri-shotguns.  You can tell yourself that the instant trigger response and BBs spread are an advantage, but at ranges where the response matters, the spread is minimal, and at ranges where you get spread, you could put a lot more BBs downrange with any auto or fully-semi-automatic AEG or gas gun.

They're still hella satisfying when you get a hit, but that's from putting in the effort, not because they're particularly effective.

in all my time airsofting i've never fired a tri-shot and can only recall being hit by one once. also the likes of the aps shells seem pointless as if they're close enough to hit with unhopped rounds then launching a couple dozen of them + a shot cup is overkill.

however that does remind me:

grenade launchers- all shower shells are shit, the 40-mike is either overkill up close or underwhelming at range, and there's no middle ground between that and the scarily sketchy (in all regards) tag rounds.

plus they make any gun they're bolted to unnecessarily heavy, stupidly awkward, and half the time you forget to use it because the rifle it's strapped to is better in every way.

buuuut they look cool as shit.

 

[PopRocket123]

in all my time airsofting i've never fired a tri-shot and can only recall being hit by one once.

however that does remind me:

grenade launchers- all shower shells are shit, the 40-mike is either overkill up close or underwhelming at range, and there's no middle ground between that and the scarily sketchy (in all regards) tag rounds.

plus they make any gun they're bolted to unnecessarily heavy, stupidly awkward, and half the time you forget to use it because the rifle it's strapped to is better in every way.

buuuut they look cool as shit.

100% this. The tag rounds don't seem that bad out of the tubes instead of the MGLs. I badly want to do a US grenadier loadout having seen this picture. 

View attachment 76047

My cyma M4. Cheap plastic that beaks easily (the rear sling point snapped under its own weight) a body that creaks worse than my back, and that's wobbly as hell and an fps that varies by up 15. Despite all that I still love using it

That's a case of "this is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine" lol. I'm that same with my guns. 

Tri-shotguns.  You can tell yourself that the instant trigger response and BBs spread are an advantage, but at ranges where the response matters, the spread is minimal, and at ranges where you get spread, you could put a lot more BBs downrange with any auto or fully-semi-automatic AEG or gas gun.

They're still hella satisfying when you get a hit, but that's from putting in the effort, not because they're particularly effective.

The one time I was hit by a shotgun, it was a TM Beecher, HPA tapped with M4 mag at 10m. Perfect triangle straight to the forehead. 

 

[Cannonfodder]

They're still hella satisfying when you get a hit, but that's from putting in the effort, not because they're particularly effective.

I think this is the case for most guns being discussed here. My Well MP7 is a prime example. The hop can't lift anything heavier than a .2g bb and struggles to reach 40ft range, but my god is it satisfying when I get a shot on target. Especially if said target is carrying an Uber expensive top of the range rif

 

[Adolf Hamster]

100% this. The tag rounds don't seem that bad out of the tubes instead of the MGLs. I badly want to do a US grenadier loadout having seen this picture. 

it's the bit where some of them explode instantly, without delay.

just begging for some poor sod to poke his head round a window at the wrong time, frankly i'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

 

[PopRocket123]

it's the bit where some of them explode instantly, without delay.

just begging for some poor sod to poke his head round a window at the wrong time, frankly i'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

There seem to have been a lot of horror stories just recently. Airtac UK is collaborating with another guy to make impact cap grenades to use with a co2 shell which seem really damn cool and a lot safer. 

 

[Rogerborg]

Agreed on the shower shells and Foo-Mikes.  At ranges where you can use them, you probably shouldn't.  Then again, I've never seen one actually used in game.

Tags, I can really do without anything heavier than a BB being shot around.  It's bad enough taking a .46g at 2J, and those whacky or explodey shells, no, I really don't fancy them.  I've seen the bangy ones lobbed by marshals to add atmosphere to a filmsim, but in a general skirmish by any rando that can afford them and who is looking for every opportunity to yeet them downrange?

 

[Impulse]

Agreed on the shower shells and Foo-Mikes.  At ranges where you can use them, you probably shouldn't.  Then again, I've never seen one actually used in game.

Tags, I can really do without anything heavier than a BB being shot around.  It's bad enough taking a .46g at 2J, and those whacky or explodey shells, no, I really don't fancy them.  I've seen the bangy ones lobbed by marshals to add atmosphere to a filmsim, but in a general skirmish by any rando that can afford them and who is looking for every opportunity to yeet them downrange?

I guess I'm lucky. It's rare that anyone uses tags at my local site, because they're silly expensive. However, when I went to my first (and probably only) milsim event last month, people were launching tags more than I was firing my bolt action rifle. Seriously, the number of tags that went off were horrendous.

That said, I have seen them at one skirmish game day from a bunch of milsim manchildren where they got annoyed with me because they kept firing tags into a location that I had long since relocated away from, they just hadn't seen me relocate and assumed I was there and not calling the hit. You'd have thought they'd give up after 2, but I think they fired 5 tags into that position before the game ended. To me, it's unfathomable how much some people spend on airsoft, and that's coming from me and my real steel load bearing gear, expensive HPA boltie setup and multitude of upgraded TM pistols.

Adding another to this list though, I'm going to say GBBRs. They're inconsistent, can throw a tantrum in the cold, but I love them all the same. I just love the kick and the realism, even if I'm limited to 35 BB magazines vs hi-cap heroes at a skirmish day

Also, any original 1911 GBB. The magazines are tiny, so a full fill is equivalent to like... half or less of another GBB magazine. However... I love my 1911!

And why not make it a third. M14s. M14s are horrible to work on, they're really heavy and super front-heavy, and they're just another AEG now that their hop up isn't wizardry relative to other platforms any more. However, once I HPA mine it will be my main gun alongside the VSR because I love it and I love how it looks. There's just something about the m14 that I love (and people seem to love. I get a lot of people asking about my m14 and complimenting me on it whenever it comes out to play)

 

[Druid799]

My webley revolver , the FPS is like a drunk staggering home from the pub one minute it’s putting out 330+ next instant it’s doing 185 all over the place ! so to be fair it really is utterly useless to scurmish but then I remember it takes 6 actual cartridges and when you break it it pops them out like a real one ! ?

As to the TAG question I can see both sides , when they first started to appear a mate got some , in game he fires one up and over the outer wall of a plywood ’castle’ , we then hear a bang and scream and few minutes later to see a distinctly wobbly looking player being escorted out of said castle by a couple of marshals back to the safezone !

turns out the TAG round had gone sailing over the wall and detonated against the poor chaps gun and had scared the living bejesus out of him ? did see him in the safezone later on trying(and failing) to light a fag but his hands where shaking too much ! ?

After that incident it was decided that they could only be fired with a clear line of site to the target .

 

[Rogerborg]

I did come close to buying a CYMA M14 to DMR, but the fiddly nature of them put me off.  I'll regret it when my Specna gearbox grenades, mind, and given that everything we do is damn silly, I probably should have followed my heart rather than my head on that one.

 

[Druid799]

100% this. The tag rounds don't seem that bad out of the tubes instead of the MGLs. I badly want to do a US grenadier loadout having seen this picture. 

My best mate is an absolute beast with a UGL and TAG rounds , he was a small arms instructor in the RAF Reg and he’s positively terrifying the way he can stick the rounds exactly where he wants them to go , he’s like a bloody sniper !?

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Webley MK VI, awful things but cool AF.

1911s.  Tiny gas capacity but cool AF.

Pistols in airsoft in general except MK23s.  

I did come close to buying a CYMA M14 to DMR, but the fiddly nature of them put me off.  I'll regret it when my Specna gearbox grenades, mind, and given that everything we do is damn silly, I probably should have followed my heart rather than my head on that one.

Go for it.  CYMA M14s are strangely addictive.  By some strange alchemy they have great range, and just as importantly, actually fit the average human frame.   Reliability wise they are pretty bulletproof and outshoot most aegs out of the box.  

They are front heavy though..!

 

[BigStew]

Another for M203s and their ilk love them but know they are practically useless and shells are deeply unreliable. 

Also revolvers that take shells.