Geoff's Bb's or Equivalents

[Davegolf]

That’s a good point regarding what weight I can Joule creep. I’m not sure to be honest. My site uses the FPS method to chrono so joules creep doesn’t really come into play I guess. But having said that you bring up a salient point. As a happy medium I’ll probably go with 0.4’s in the first instance and see how I rock with those.

What i mean is you should test, even with some cheapo bbs to measure what the joules are with your chrono.

You just dont want to be losing energy, otherwise i kinda negates the heavier BBs weight in the first place.

@Adolf Hamster im not implying abusing the system/mechaninc, not saying to increase the joules, (which TBH is difficult to gain neglible joules with AEG setup) just no loss of energy. Otherwise pretty pointless DMR TBH.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

What i mean is you should test, even with some cheapo bbs to measure what the joules are with your chrono.

You just dont want to be losing energy, otherwise i kinda negates the heavier BBs weight in the first place.

@Adolf Hamster im not implying abusing the system/mechaninc, not saying to increase the joules, (which TBH is difficult to gain neglible joules with AEG setup) just no loss of energy. Otherwise pretty pointless DMR TBH.

ahh you mean hop losses from heavier ammo.

i was thinking more the hpa/gbbr type of joule creep.

 

[Davegolf]

No i do mean actual joule creep.

The whole idea of volume matching your cylinder volume to the barrel is so that you are actually accelerating the BB properly.

As soon as you start running heavier ammo it takes more energy and time to accelerate that BB, so you need more volume.

Otherwise that heavy BB is never going to get accelerated fully, again im not saying ramp it up like a HPA rig, just you need to maintain joules to make the whole venture worthwhile.

Yes you may end up running a lower FPS if you have a Joule limit/cap at your site, but a properly jouled gun is always going to shoot better than one with joule loss and 50 fps more.

 

[AlphaBear]

Now I'm going off tangent here....So this topic of Joule creep got me thinking... in theory one could go over a site joules limit if not careful..  

The UK joules limit is about 1.13 to 1.14 based on a 0.2g bb @ 350fps. So if we take the 0.43g bb as an example it must not exceed 238fps according to the Z1 calculator. Could that same 0.43 bb travel faster if the gun has excellent compression, perfect hop and perfect barrel or am I completely missing the concept here? 

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[Adolf Hamster]

No i do mean actual joule creep.

The whole idea of volume matching your cylinder volume to the barrel is so that you are actually accelerating the BB properly.

As soon as you start running heavier ammo it takes more energy and time to accelerate that BB, so you need more volume.

Otherwise that heavy BB is never going to get accelerated fully, again im not saying ramp it up like a HPA rig, just you need to maintain joules to make the whole venture worthwhile.

Yes you may end up running a lower FPS if you have a Joule limit/cap at your site, but a properly jouled gun is always going to shoot better than one with joule loss and 50 fps more.

ahh i think i see where you're coming from.

 

[AlphaBear]

Now I'm confused.... in my case my cylinder is matched to the length of the full length barrel and I assume the compression is as perfect as Sam can get it to be... so cold I in theory go over a sites joule limit?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Now I'm going off tangent here....So this topic of Joule creep got me thinking... in theory one could go over a site joules limit if not careful..  

The UK joules limit is about 1.13 to 1.14 based on a 0.2g bb @ 350fps. So if we take the 0.43g bb as an example it must not exceed 238fps according to the Z1 calculator. Could that same 0.43 bb travel faster if the gun has excellent compression, perfect hop and perfect barrel or am I completely missing the concept here? 

what davegolf's talking about is losing energy from undervoluming, ammo that takes longer in the barrel is going to lose more air around it from the standard losses you get (barrel/bb gap).

joule creep (at least the way i use the term) is the gain you get when using heavier ammo in a constant pressure system (ie aeg or hpa) as opposed to a constant energy system (ie an aeg).

 

[Davegolf]

@AlphaBear the 1j limit implies no MED, full auto someone at 2 meter range.

Most sites have an MED because naturally running at higher FPS is obviously going to impart higher joules.

Once the BB has departed the barrel it is from that point forwards decelerating, hence the MED because after 30M it has lost enough energy to be safe / 1j again on impact.

For example a BASR is putting out nearly 2.3j

A 450 FPS DMR 1.8j

A 420 FPS DMR 1.6j

So all im saying is tune the gun to maintain that joule reading.

Gas and HPA are capable of increasing the joule, but and AEG will only do so very maringally if at all.

To answer your build from Sam, you need a chrono and do some testing to find the 'sweet' weight

 

[AlphaBear]

@Adolf Hamster, @Davegolf, Ahhhh gotcha... that makes sense now...I do have a chrono here with me an Xcotech x3200 but only 0.2 and 0.25 ammo at the moment. I'll get some 0.28's for the primary 416 and 0.4's for the DMR 417 and report back once I test.. Or would you recommend 0.3 for woodland? I mean how much difference is there between 0.28 and 0.3 other than £5 for the packet...

 

[Pop]

ASG Devil Blaster 0.28s for my Avalon

and Geoffs Super Precision 0.45s for my SRS here

 

[Adolf Hamster]

@Adolf Hamster, @Davegolf, Ahhhh gotcha... that makes sense now...I do have a chrono here with me an Xcotech x3200 but only 0.2 and 0.25 ammo at the moment. I'll get some 0.28's for the primary 416 and 0.4's for the DMR 417 and report back once I test.. Or would you recommend 0.3 for woodland? I mean how much difference is there between 0.28 and 0.3 other than £5 for the packet...

i'm probably the wrong person to ask about ammo weights given my penchant for occasionally yeeting 0.48's out of an assault gun with a 1j limit....

however, for an assault role i'd normally run in the 0.3g range, and go heavier for sniper/dmr type role where lower round count makes up for the ammo cost.

 

[AlphaBear]

ASG Devil Blaster 0.28s for my Avalon

and Geoffs Super Precision 0.45s for my SRS here

I've also heard good things about the ASG Devil Blasters... at 0.28 to 0.3 it's probably more cost effective than Geoffs?

 

[Davegolf]

I would highly reccomend buyign in some Green Devil BIOs from belguim;

A: they are very accurate

B: we should all be using BIOs outside

If you already have a load of 0.28s, use them up.

If your assualt gun is 330-350 then go 0.30s for accuracy over range, or 0.28s for a little more BB speed / faster time to target.

If you are 330 or less stay at 0.25/0.28

PS if you gun is a Sam (Liggat?) custom build he should be able to tell you what weight he optimised it for. I do.

 

[Rogerborg]

B: we should all be using BIOs outside

I think we should be using them both indoors and out, but I believe that we're not.  PLA does not appear to be woodland biodegradable in any meaningful sense.

https://www.biosphereplastic.com/biodegradableplastic/uncategorized/is-pla-compostable/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304615824_Mineralization_of_Poly_lactic_acidPLA_Poly_3-hydroxybutyrate-co-valeratePHBV_and_PLAPHBV_Blend_in_Compost_and_Soil_Environments

I'm in two minds about whether to mention this, as if landowners who mandate biodegradable find out, then we might find ourselves using gel blasters.

But I think we should be using actual biodegradable BBs, and that's only going to happen if we call foul on PLA.

 

[Groot]

So did people agree that BLS and Geoffs are the same?

The pricing for 1KG of the little buggers from Skirmish shop is very attractive. 

 

[AlphaBear]

I think we should be using them both indoors and out, but I believe that we're not.  PLA does not appear to be woodland biodegradable in any meaningful sense.

https://www.biosphereplastic.com/biodegradableplastic/uncategorized/is-pla-compostable/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304615824_Mineralization_of_Poly_lactic_acidPLA_Poly_3-hydroxybutyrate-co-valeratePHBV_and_PLAPHBV_Blend_in_Compost_and_Soil_Environments

I'm in two minds about whether to mention this, as if landowners who mandate biodegradable find out, then we might find ourselves using gel blasters.

But I think we should be using actual biodegradable BBs, and that's only going to happen if we call foul on PLA.

the salient point here is how will landowners know if you're using bio bb's? (of course if they don't degrade over whatever the time period is then obviously).. But more importantly and in the present game day, how will game organisers know this too? The game owners will not check peoples bb's at the start of the day... It's all down to the goodwill of the players... And the fact that bio's are a tad more than their counterparts kinda goes against the saving of the planet argument. But in short, yes we should all be using bio's.. 

 

[Rogerborg]

The game owners will not check peoples bb's at the start of the day...

A local woodland site was saying they expected people to open a new, sealed bottle or bag of bio BBs each game day, and that the land owner had threatened to do spot checks.

Then then got kicked off that site anyway, so I've no idea how or if they actually enforced it.  Also, in this context specifically, there's no way you're going to do that with heavyweight BBs.

While I'm on my hobby horse, I'll note again that heavyweight BBs are only notionally plastic anyway, as pure ABS and PLA are both under 0.2g for a 6mm BB.  God knows what else is in there, or how degradable (bio or otherwise) it is.

 

[AlphaBear]

Well I bought a pack of 0.4’s and 0.3’s hopefully this weekend I’ll give them a try. Still trying to get my head around how pricey a pack of 1000 0.4’s is!

I’m also contemplating trying out 0.3 ASG Devil Blasters as they are £3 cheaper a bottle than Geoff’s. 

 

[padraigthesniper]

Geoffs are top tier in my experience the consitency jump is mad on most guns. Full auto goes from a wide cone to a small beam on most of the guns ive put them in. ASG Devil Blasters are almost as good when ive used em.

 

[Davegolf]

Well I bought a pack of 0.4’s and 0.3’s hopefully this weekend I’ll give them a try. Still trying to get my head around how pricey a pack of 1000 0.4’s is!

I’m also contemplating trying out 0.3 ASG Devil Blasters as they are £3 cheaper a bottle than Geoff’s. 

If your going 0.3s try Green Devil BIO, better than Blasters or Geoffs