Gel blaster RIFs - what's up with those?

[Rogerborg]

Prompted by the lad asking about how to get an airsoft gat for playing in a field, I was going to suggest gel blasters as I'd seen dayglo / stickerbomb ones for sale.

But, well, well, well, looks like they've gone full RIF.

For example https://gelweapons.co.uk/collections/gel-blasters/

You can even find them for sale on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blaster-Goggles-Upgrade-Version-Backyard/dp/B0DFP99WQY (I've reported that one to see if they care).

These are quite obviously RIFs. They're not airsoft guns, and they can't claim our defence.  They seem to be over 1J, so would notionally be "lethal barrelled" air guns (just because they're intended to shoot gel balls doesn't mean you couldn't drop steel BBs in).  They might even need an air gun licence in Scotshire.  Heck, full auto and "lethal barrelled"...

I'm assuming that the sellers and owners are just getting away with it because, well, nobody cares.  Just pure disinterest from the police and trading standards.

At this point, I rather suspect that having a defence and a defined non-firearm category is the only thing that's making airsoft retailers ask for a defence.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Are they classed as using "fraggable" projectiles like Paintball guns I wonder, but would being able to fire full auto negate that or cane they point to other types of gun ref projectile size. Could also fire projectile's other than Paintballs so not sure about that point. 

As you say the hole thing is just PR and until it benefits nobody cares. The rules on Airsoft guns are silly when anyone over the age of 18 can rock up and buy an Air Gun that looks 100% like an Airsoft Gun or just buy an IF and spray it.

I just thank God Hazel Blears got fucked off or we would all be speed softers right now

 

[Rogerborg]

Are they classed as using "fraggable" projectiles like Paintball guns I wonder

Likely, but they're still clearly RIFs, and I see RIF paintball "markers" are also freely available for sale.

As you say the hole thing is just PR and until it benefits nobody cares. The rules on Airsoft guns are silly when anyone over the age of 18 can rock up and buy an Air Gun that looks 100% like an Airsoft Gun or just buy an IF and spray it.

Yarp, it's utterly ridiculous, and it seems that we're now the only RIF-based hobby that self-polices in any way.

I just thank God Hazel Blears got fucked off or we would all be speed softers right now

Australia are all gel-blasters now after even airsoft guns fell foul of their fun-sponges.

My real concern is that some Minster looking for a quick headline "discovers" all the various RIFs for sale, and yells "Ban 'em! Ban 'em all! And ban private possession as well!"

We should enjoy it while it lasts, I guess.

 

[Cannonfodder]

I'm assuming that the sellers and owners are just getting away with it because, well, nobody cares.  Just pure disinterest from the police and trading standards.

This but I'm sure it'll all change when some chavvy twat decides to wave one around in public 

 

[Herrgh]

For example https://gelweapons.co.uk/collections/gel-blasters/

Why are they so cheap? Surely they're not that mechanically different from regular AEGs? Or am I mistaken? 

 

[Rogerborg]

Why are they so cheap? Surely they're not that mechanically different from regular AEGs? Or am I mistaken? 

I believe they're basically airsoft gearboxes, but a lot of plastic rather than Chinesium, no hop unit, and tin foil barrels.

 

[EDcase]

Yeah, just plastic fantastic.  From the video's I've seen they're junk.  No hop and only a few meters with any accuracy.

Feel sorry for the Aussies that only have that to play.

 

[ak2m4]

these guys are based in Netherlands I believe, although that might be a front for a Chinese company - lot of stuff goes through NL.  Price is indeed pretty decent, £65 for the SLR, says shipped via GLS.  All Nylon of course.

I purchased a sample MAXIM branded M4 from the factory in China, and it's really nice externally.  I also have a converted SLR.  Super easy to convert to airsoft, just need new gearbox, inner barrel and hop chamber.    

 

[Tommikka]

@Chev Chelios

@Rogerborg

Paintball guns are CURRENTLY considered by the Home Office as non RIF but very hazily grey, and provided that they are used with only standard type paintballs (whether that is standard .68” or .43” / .50” which are fairly common for magfed pistols) and First Strike shaped projectiles (as they were subjected to approved testing on lethality/frangibilty)

Similar shaped projectiles are not acceptable, and solid projectiles are not acceptable for the paintball classification and would be treated as air weapons 

For the Home Office to be happy about that the usage is recommended to be for use on insured paintball sites, and a recommendation has been made that retailers require UKPSF player membership for a VCRA like ‘paintball skirmisher’ like defence ——- with no standing under the VCRA legislation to back that up, and you can buy membership on purchase - there is no game playing count etc 

UKPSF trade/retail members adopted that policy, but non UKPSF sellers won’t be doing so

………….

This has wavered quite a bit in recent years and the UKPSF are regularly dealing with the Home Office and legal advisors with updates at the annual trade & player AGMs

The specifics have been updated in each of the last few AGMs

The police, customs etc have acted upon the high power home defence, and solid projectiles etc in a number of cases in recent years

(Including cases that have been flagged on here a few times)

………….

GelSoft had legal problems in Australia etc and found to be illegal - No get out clause of ‘it’s just a toy’

…………

It will be a matter of nothing having come to people’s attention so far with UK GelSoft RIFs - which means someone can easily find themselves in a world of hurt 

…….
 

Historically there was the argument that a firearm is not a RIF, therefore a low

power air weapon that shoots frangibles (AKA paintball) was a firearm and therefore not an imitation / replica

The same was considered for air guns which look exactly like firearms

Me and Rogerborg agreed to disagree

Case law has since established otherwise with an airgun lookalike found in court to be both an airweapon (firearm) and a RIF

 

[Rogerborg]

Case law has since established otherwise with an airgun lookalike found in court to be both an airweapon (firearm) and a RIF

Oof. Case law uber alles. Do you happen to know the case?

 

[Tommikka]

Oof. Case law uber alles. Do you happen to know the case?

That’s a really good question - it’s somewhere amongst the various “is it a RIF” threads in here

I had a thread on a paintball forum which had the majority of the complex assortment of relevant legislation & case law points, and had tagged it there  - but that has since died and taken my ‘convenient & tidy-ish” reference list away before I managed to rescue the content

I shall endeavour to relocate it

 

[Tommikka]

@Rogerborg

Found it 







However, I could be a little bit pedantic as it looks like it hadn’t gone to court at the time, so an airgun might be a RIF as that was the arrest and he had apparantly both pleaded guilty and then denied 

He did end up with a conviction, but I have not fully searched back to see what the actual charges were in court 

So an F could be a RIF, and there has been a case about it, so I must still concede your point of view - unless we get up the court results to find it rejecting the view

(If the actual charges & case in court did not test F can be RIF then I still concede the line has moved a little due to the original arrest)

On the Home Office view as paintball and frangible, the old version is referenced in the UKPSF post below

(But in recent years it has wobbled due to grey import ‘home defence’ paintball pistols, with the updates on status in each of the AGMs for the past few years)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=532643633518379&id=100039104568012

 

[Rogerborg]

Huh, thanks, I had no recollection of even posting that!

 

[Rogerborg]

Reply from Amazon about the RIF gel blaster.

After reviewing your notice, we could not determine that the content or product violates applicable law. Therefore, we are unable to take further action based on the information you provided.
If you have new information that was not previously disclosed, you can submit a new report with additional information. If you disagree with this decision, you have the ability to escalate the issue once for further review using the following link: https://www.amazon.[MP]/report/dispute. [sic]

I've escalated it with citations directly to section 38 and 36 of the VCRA, and to the Bri'ish Toy and Hobby Association code of practice.

https://new.btha.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Toy-Gun-Code-Jan-2019.pdf

I'm frankly astonished that they rejected it: even eBay takes down anything remotely assault-toy related.

 

[Bnjemann]

The website you have listed is I assume a Chinese business with a business operation in the Netherlands. They have “Gel blaster.countryname” sites for many countries. I would avoid at ALL costs ordering from them because your product is coming from overseas and puts you at risk of a VCRA section 36 importation offence. I was going to purchase a MAC 10 from them but did some digging. That being said, you should be absolutely safe buying their VCRA complaint products. As far as I am aware their stock comes from the netherlands.

proof of their NL site identical to their U.K. one.

https://gelwapens.nl/collections/gel-blasters/

their other website, .com based, identical, advertises to the USA: https://gelweapons.com - has different products listed.

As for an actually U.K. based seller, Gelsoft, They’ve got some INSANE mental gymnastics in their sale policy of RIFs, saying that “Home insurance covers activities like back yard skirmishing” referring to the revision of the VCRA declaring insured activities as a legal defense to sell someone one (Lol rite?????) meaning by their logic, anyone could buy a RIF. If I walked into an airsoft shop and demanded they sell me a RIF under that logic, I’d be laughed out the door and they’d probably even put a big picture of me on their wall pulling a silly expression labelled “Moron of the year”.

I wouldn’t touch Gelsoft RIFs with a 10 foot barge pole until the sport becomes more well established and there’s some degree of defacto governing body overseeing its legal status rather than the closest thing british gel blaster enthusiasts currently have; Sellers like that.

The “Skirmishing defense” Applies to sites and activities / organisations with third party liability insurance covering the use of RIFs. There are no gelsoft sites in the U.K. currently operating, as far as I can tell, that allow you to bring your own blasters, meaning in terms of gelsoft, there’s next to no “Defense” for owning one for skirmishing.

back that up, and you can buy membership on purchase - there is no game playing count etc 

UKPSF trade/retail members adopted that policy, but non UKPSF sellers won’t be doing so

UKPSF, as far as I’m aware, operate a database now requiring you to attend paintball games at UKPSF sites before your membership qualifies you to purchase a paintball gun. I could be wrong, but I don’t feel I am.

 

[Tommikka]

UKPSF, as far as I’m aware, operate a database now requiring you to attend paintball games at UKPSF sites before your membership qualifies you to purchase a paintball gun. I could be wrong, but I don’t feel I am.

UKPSF maintain player membership, but do not run a UKARA style playing requirement.

Players just sign up & pay for membership. 
 

UKPSF retail members have adopted a voluntary scheme to sell only to UKPSF members, or sell membership with the sale

 

[Rogerborg]

referring to the revision of the VCRA declaring insured activities as a legal defense to sell someone one

"Permitted activities", of which only airsoft skirmishing is listed.  And we could lose that at the stroke of a pen, as it's not even regulatory, let alone statutory.  

UKPSF retail members have adopted a voluntary scheme to sell only to UKPSF members, or sell membership with the sale

Uh... so, they can't sell to you under any circumstances other than by adding £5 to the price? ?

 

[Tommikka]

"

Uh... so, they can't sell to you under any circumstances other than by adding £5 to the price? ?

Can, but choose not to

There is either no legal requirement (unless the VCRA gets applied with no listed paintball defence)

So for just an average random they can buy from a UKPSF member retailer for an extra £5, or go to a non UKPSF retailer 

(Edit - some sites / events provide a UKPSF discount, which has usually been the price of membership - two participating events and you’re quids in - or some sites / events charge a higher non membership price)

If a ‘proper’ player, interested in being a member then it can be £15 for 5 years 

(Optionally if you can find it then pay a paintballers business to turn your digital card into a pretty metal card - or do as I do now and pay a few hundred ££ for my own sublimation setup and make my own - in a few decades that will work out cheaper)

For a little subliminal advertising, the original UKPSF one man band provided player membership with public liability & injury insurance, with the membership fee going to the premiums.  My original

membership came as ‘free’ with a magazine subscription, so I was a member and insured for free.

(The insurance wasn’t really worth anything for me as my employment sickness benefits were better, plus my other life/injury/sports insurance, so I would not qualify for anything but causing someone else’s injury)

At a later date they added a free uninsured membership - basically to push up member numbers , so for a couple of years I did that.  

Numbers did go up, but didn’t really count to anything (such as Sport England recognition - on the list for decades, still not formal, but with the new-ish committee getting traction did get accepted for the Covid reopening - which then boosted numbers due to people seeing an outcome 

The free membership was scrapped for the current £5 1 year / £15 5 year - and insurance dropped, with fees now going to the UKPSF (no longer a one man band as he retired and handed the reigns over to a committee , which has gained traction) 

End of pointless advert of paintball membership to an audience of airsofters disguised as a history