G&P M14 DMR upgrades for ~480 FPS. Comparing recommendations from other forums and Reddit.

[Liam Porter]

I may have already made a topic about this a while ago, but I can't quite remember, not sure if it would be worth searching for it and reviving it again if there is one.

If you can't be bothered to read it all, then answer this: Guarder internal parts or Lonex internal parts for a 500 FPS set up?

Today, I've had a proper look into a suitable list of upgrade parts to get an M14 firing from ~340 FPS to ~480 FPS reliably.

From searching various forums, and asking on Reddit, I've come up with three possible lists of parts.

I'll list them all separately, including costs of items and total cost at the bottom. I'll also include a note after any parts about what certain people have had to say about them.

Option 1 (mainly coming from Airsoft Sniper Forum):

Prometheus double torque gear set - £95.00 - From Reddit: 3 people have recommended Lonex/SHS gears over these, as Prometheus are overpriced.

Guarder SP140 spring - £12.00 - From Reddit:1 person recommended SP130 to get 480 FPS, and someone else has said to get PDI for consistency.

Guarder nozzle - £11.00

Guarder steel cylinder head - £18.00

Guarder cylinder - £13.00

Guarder aluminium piston head - £12.00 - From Reddit: 1 person said not to get aluminium as it will put extra stress on gearbox.

Guarder polycarbonate piston - £15.00

Guarder cut off lever - £12.00

G&P M160 DMR motor - ~£60 - Cannot find this in stock anywhere at all.

Prometheus barrel - £63.00

Systema hop bucking with H nub - £6.00

Total: £317.00 (plus the gun).

Option 2 (from Airsoft Canada Forum):

Guarder M14 Tune Up Kit, including: - £99.00

- Polycarbonate Piston

- Air Seal Nozzle
- Ball Bearings Spring Guide
- Polycarbonate Ventilation Piston Head
- Stainless Cylinder Head
- Lucid Chromium Plating Cylinder
- Original Type Steel Gear
- Enhanced Tappet
- 6mm Steel Bushing
- Shim Set

- SP120 Spring

Guarder SP140 Spring - £12.00

Stock cut off lever

G&P M160 DMR motor - ~£60 - Cannot find this in stock anywhere at all.

Prometheus barrel - £63.00

Systema hop bucking with H nub - £6.00

Total: £240.00 (plus the gun).

Option 3 (Reddit's recommendations):

Lonex gear set - £40.00 - From Reddit: another person said to get SHS gears instead, costing ~£20.00

PDI/Guarder spring SP130 equivalent - £12.00

Lonex nozzle - £3.95

Lonex cylinder or stock cylinder - £11.99

Lonex cylinder head - £15.29

Lonex piston head - £11.99

Lonex red piston - £14.49

Stock cut off lever

Lonex torque motor - £44.95 - I'm pretty certain that standard AEG motors don't fit in the M14 DMR body kit, as the two made by G&P specifically for the gun look completely different.

Prometheus barrel - £63.00

Lonex hop bucking - £4.50

Total: £222.16 (plus the gun).

So, what do you guys think of these three lists of upgrades?

Any recommendations as what to/what not to get and why?

I've found that Reddit seem to love Lonex/SHS parts, while disliking Guarder parts quite a lot.

Personally, I'm leaning towards option two, with most parts being Guarder, I know they'll all go well together without compatibility issues.

If you were buying a G&P M14 to upgrade to ~500 FPS as a DMR, what parts would you get?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Moved from the correct section of the forums to get it noticed.

I might permit special treatment like this if the OP lets me know, though it's a shame that people only look to give advice in the general section.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Also, to reply to the OP, I would say that everyone on Reddit seems to be a nob who largely have no idea what they're on about and just recycle info they've read elsewhere without really understanding what they're doing.

They're also about 90% American, so a lot of the stuff they all love, isn't the same as what we can get for the same money, or as easily.

I would say to get an SHS gear set, Patrol Base recommended I get a 1:19 ratio gear set for a 450fps set up - I was planning on going to 1:26/28 because using the bicycle analogy - the higher the gear ratio, the easier it is to pedal. So I assumed it'd be the same for gearboxes - and although it is the same, you'll lose so much ROF from having such a high ratio, that it's probably not even worth it.

So yeah, high torque gear set, but not a ridiculously high torque ratio, upgrade the cut off lever because you'll need that quite badly if you're locking to semi, upgrade the cylinder, cylinder head, piston and piston head, as well as the spring guide, pad it all out with some sorbo pads or use an air brake piston head and try to achieve your fps through solid compression, instead of a high power spring.

You want as little stress on the parts as possible to maintain your trigger response, and you'll want the most beefy motor you can find and fit into the gun.

A cycle completion mosfet would be worth looking into as well, 'cos if you lock up a DMR locked to semi, and it's firing at 500fps, you're not getting the thing unlocked without disassembling it, and you're not going to want to struggle with a 500fps spring in a V7 gearbox more times than you need to.

 

[Spatch]

Other than the fact that at 480-500fps as a DMR there are basically no sites that would allow it use from memory

I'd personally use laylax parts, but as above 450 is the max on a DMR

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Nope, Free Fire Zone and Skirmish both have 500fps DMR limits.

 

[Liam Porter]

Thanks for moving it Ed, I do try to put things in the right places, but it's not really any good if they don't even get seen when they are.

Also, to reply to the OP, I would say that everyone on Reddit seems to be a nob who largely have no idea what they're on about and just recycle info they've read elsewhere without really understanding what they're doing.

They're also about 90% American, so a lot of the stuff they all love, isn't the same as what we can get for the same money, or as easily.

I would say to get an SHS gear set, Patrol Base recommended I get a 1:19 ratio gear set for a 450fps set up - I was planning on going to 1:26/28 because using the bicycle analogy - the higher the gear ratio, the easier it is to pedal. So I assumed it'd be the same for gearboxes - and although it is the same, you'll lose so much ROF from having such a high ratio, that it's probably not even worth it.

So yeah, high torque gear set, but not a ridiculously high torque ratio, upgrade the cut off lever because you'll need that quite badly if you're locking to semi, upgrade the cylinder, cylinder head, piston and piston head, as well as the spring guide, pad it all out with some sorbo pads or use an air brake piston head and try to achieve your fps through solid compression, instead of a high power spring.

You want as little stress on the parts as possible to maintain your trigger response, and you'll want the most beefy motor you can find and fit into the gun.

A cycle completion mosfet would be worth looking into as well, 'cos if you lock up a DMR locked to semi, and it's firing at 500fps, you're not getting the thing unlocked without disassembling it, and you're not going to want to struggle with a 500fps spring in a V7 gearbox more times than you need to.

The G&P M160 DMR motor I'm gonna get is designed to be able to pull an M160 spring on standard gear ratios, I've seen it said in a few places, 1 being Airsoft Sniper Forum, trying to find the others.

There are only two motors that fit in the gun, G&P M120 DMR motor, which it comes with, and the M160 version above. You can modify other motors to fit apparently, but I don't really want to have to disassemble motors, when there's one available that should get the job done fine.

Any recommendations as to which brand for piston parts etc.?

Regarding SHS gears, if they're as good as brands such as Guarder and Prometheus, why are they so much cheaper?

SHS gears are about £20, Guarder £30 and then Prometheus are almost £100. Will SHS be able to survive at 500 FPS?

I know there's an ASCU for Ver.7 gearboxes been mentioned by Red Wolf a few months ago, but I've not heard any news on it recently, so it'll probably be another couple of years before it's actually released.

So, recommend any MOSFETs, and should I get AB or not AB? Apparently AB ones wear down the motor quicker.

Other than the fact that at 480-500fps as a DMR there are basically no sites that would allow it use from memory

I'd personally use laylax parts, but as above 450 is the max on a DMR

I've checked sites, local allows 500 FPS on a DMR, I'll keep the stock spring, and may get another to get me to ~425 in case I go to other sites with lower limits.

LayLax (prometheus) was my original plan, but with them being quite expensive, and seeing quite few other forums suggest Guarder as a cheaper alternative, thought it'd make more sense.

 

[Spatch]

It's the same as most things Airsoft and the world over in general, you get what you pay for mate

Laylax stuff is about the best, so if it takes an extra couple of weeks to afford the best rather than 'making do' with a cheaper alternative that at some point will let you down, is that really an option?

I have heard and seen some proper horror stories with guarder bits, but then that's just my 2 pence worth

 

[Liam Porter]

It's the same as most things Airsoft and the world over in general, you get what you pay for mate

Laylax stuff is about the best, so if it takes an extra couple of weeks to afford the best rather than 'making do' with a cheaper alternative that at some point will let you down, is that really an option?

I have heard and seen some proper horror stories with guarder bits, but then that's just my 2 pence worth

I know what you mean, upgraded from MadBull to PDI barrel in my L96 - makes so much difference it's unbelievable.

I know Laylax stuff is good, it works out a bit more expensive, but in the long run, it probably is worth it. I'm not usually one for cheaping out on parts, got full PDI/LayLax in my L96.

It's just seen quite a few people say save on the gears, get Guarder instead of Laylax.

What Guarder bits have heard of/seen going wrong?

 

[M_P]

Guarder metal kits and stuff tend to not be great- heard nothing but good about their m14 ftk though.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I don't really know enough about mosfets and gears and stuff to be the best person to advise you, but I can't see how gears made of steel can really go wrong, they might wear out, but it's going to take a hell of a long time, and they're not going to work any better or worse than anything else if they're meshing right. If they're not then it won't matter what brand you get.

The piston is the most important part, you need something strong enough to take 500fps. The back tooth is the most important, that will snap off like a twig if you're using a powerful motor and a high fps spring.

As for piston recommendations, again, there are people with more knowledge than me. The only gun I've ever had to change a piston on is my L85, and that has a proprietary piston so I've not had much chance to experiment with them.

I am an advocate for learning the hard way - I'd go cheap to start out, if it works fine and lasts then you've saved money. If it caves in, then you'll know for next time and have an excuse to brush up your knowledge of disassembly and picking up a few tips and tricks to make it easier.

 

[Liam Porter]

Guarder metal kits and stuff tend to not be great- heard nothing but good about their m14 ftk though.

I'll probably get the M14 kit then to be honest, it's middle ground on cost, had quite a few people recommend it, only a couple of people have said get something else instead of it, but haven't given a reason why not to get the Guarder. It has pretty much all the internal gearbox parts I need in 1 pack, and comes with an M120 spring, so I can use that to get a little lower FPS for different sites.

I don't really know enough about mosfets and gears and stuff to be the best person to advise you, but I can't see how gears made of steel can really go wrong, they might wear out, but it's going to take a hell of a long time, and they're not going to work any better or worse than anything else if they're meshing right. If they're not then it won't matter what brand you get.

The piston is the most important part, you need something strong enough to take 500fps. The back tooth is the most important, that will snap off like a twig if you're using a powerful motor and a high fps spring.

As for piston recommendations, again, there are people with more knowledge than me. The only gun I've ever had to change a piston on is my L85, and that has a proprietary piston so I've not had much chance to experiment with them.

I am an advocate for learning the hard way - I'd go cheap to start out, if it works fine and lasts then you've saved money. If it caves in, then you'll know for next time and have an excuse to brush up your knowledge of disassembly and picking up a few tips and tricks to make it easier.

I normally get mid-level stuff at first, 'cause if feel that cheap will definitely go wrong, so I'll end up spending more, so tend to get something in between, and if it isn't quite right or goes wrong, then get the more/most expensive stuff.

Anyone know anything about ExtremeFire MOSFETs? This one: http://extreme-fire.com/SW-AB-LONG.html has been suggested a few times, so can't be awful, and it's quite a decent price ($55).

Also, apparently using AB MOSFETs on semi-auto cause the motor to heat up a lot.

Maybe a non-AB MOSFET would be better, to prevent arching of the trigger contacts and to increase trigger response, but also to help save the motor.

Then again, as Ed said, I really don't want the gearbox to be locking up, meaning I have to take it apart with a 500 FPS spring in it...

EDIT: While looking for how to lock it semi, without removing the fire selector, I stumbled upon this, how to unlock the gearbox if it locks up on semi-auto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPK4dG-gGxg

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

If the gun locks up to the point where full auto can't fix it either, though. Then you're going to want to flip the AR latch to unlock the gears.

What you could actually do, is get a active breaking mosfet and then just remove the AR latch completely. Since the motor is going to be so ludicrously powerful, it'll stop by itself the second the power is cut anyway most likely, but the torque it puts out will cause over spin and the gears will drag it around for another revolution until the spring's tension builds up enough to stop it.

So an AB mosfet would probably be the easiest option, it'll stop the motor faster than it would on its own. Though I've not really read up on any adverse effects they can have on motors. The ASCUs incorporate an AB mosfet though, and everyone always raves about them.

 

[sp00n]

i personally do not rate the G&P M120 motor, i have one in my mp5K atm, and when it goes pop i will not get annother, it dosnt seem to run that well, its bevel gear is very weak and wears really fast (i used guarder gears), and worst of all it gets mega hot! even when not running in the gun.

i am looking at a Lonex A2, and shs gears when its rebuild time.

 

[Liam Porter]

If the gun locks up to the point where full auto can't fix it either, though. Then you're going to want to flip the AR latch to unlock the gears.

What you could actually do, is get a active breaking mosfet and then just remove the AR latch completely. Since the motor is going to be so ludicrously powerful, it'll stop by itself the second the power is cut anyway most likely, but the torque it puts out will cause over spin and the gears will drag it around for another revolution until the spring's tension builds up enough to stop it.

So an AB mosfet would probably be the easiest option, it'll stop the motor faster than it would on its own. Though I've not really read up on any adverse effects they can have on motors. The ASCUs incorporate an AB mosfet though, and everyone always raves about them.

Okay, so done a bit of reading on MOSFETs. With the AB ones, as you release the trigger, the current to the motor is reversed for a very short time, which means the motor turns the other way, bringing the gears to a quick stop.

You also get passive breaking, which instead of using a mini circuit board to reverse the current, it is done by causing a short, apparently they have less wear on the motor.

i personally do not rate the G&P M120 motor, i have one in my mp5K atm, and when it goes pop i will not get annother, it dosnt seem to run that well, its bevel gear is very weak and wears really fast (i used guarder gears), and worst of all it gets mega hot! even when not running in the gun.

i am looking at a Lonex A2, and shs gears when its rebuild time.

I've got one in my M16, as it came with it, my brother has one in his M4, as it came with it, my step-dad has one in both his M4s, and they all work well. Not had any problems, mine gets warm if I'm tapping away on semi really quickly, but on full auto, it's fine, and gives a nice 23 RPS.

Also, I can't get anything other than G&P M120 or G&P M160, as others simply don't fit in the gun.

 

[sp00n]

I've got one in my M16, as it came with it, my brother has one in his M4, as it came with it, my step-dad has one in both his M4s, and they all work well. Not had any problems, mine gets warm if I'm tapping away on semi really quickly, but on full auto, it's fine, and gives a nice 23 RPS.

Also, I can't get anything other than G&P M120 or G&P M160, as others simply don't fit in the gun.

I "upgraded" from the original TM motor (exactly same physical size motor's, and the TM never got hot in or out of the gun). yet this one just gets hot both in and out of the gun, i am not kidding you. yet when i asked i was told "they all do that", same with the bevel wear.

Also i get with standard ratio gearing (i dont know the standard guarder mp5 gearing ratio off top of my head), i cannot get over 19bb/s with either a 7.4v lipo or 9.6v nimh, that was with bearings, and shimm'ed correctly (all nice and free spinning etc).

Maybe G&P put better motor's in there guns, i honestly dont know, i have never owned one, it might be a "beding in phase", all i can say is it hasnt filled me with confidence.

 

[M_P]

I "upgraded" from the original TM motor (exactly same physical size motor's, and the TM never got hot in or out of the gun). yet this one just gets hot both in and out of the gun, i am not kidding you. yet when i asked i was told "they all do that", same with the bevel wear.

Also i get with standard ratio gearing (i dont know the standard guarder mp5 gearing ratio off top of my head), i cannot get over 19bb/s with either a 7.4v lipo or 9.6v nimh, that was with bearings, and shimm'ed correctly (all nice and free spinning etc).

Maybe G&P put better motor's in there guns, i honestly dont know, i have never owned one, it might be a "beding in phase", all i can say is it hasnt filled me with confidence.

It's probably more likely that you just got a lemon, every manufacturer has some bad batches or whatever.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I never really rated G&P M120s either, I had a stock M4 Commando and I used to notice the motor getting hot through the grip. The gun was running at around 370fps with a pretty standard rof so there was nothing major to complain about, but the heating did used to worry me.

Never took it apart before selling it to see if the bevel was wearing particularly fast, but based on the heating alone, I wouldn't ever buy one for another gun.

I don't think I'd buy one anyway, just because a motor that's stock in a certain line of guns is never going to seem like an upgrade to me.

 

[sp00n]

It's probably more likely that you just got a lemon, every manufacturer has some bad batches or whatever.

That's true i guess