Europe Vs. America

[Leo Greer]

Alright y'all, I'm a forum regular on America's largest (only) active Airsoft forum, and I've been lurking here for quite a while before deciding to start contributing. During that time I've noticed that y'all tend to do things differently than American "tech thinking", so I wanted to make this thread to discuss some of the differences and perhaps ways I could improve my own teching style. ?

I'm not including Reddit or YouTube when I say "American" teching. We all know they'll go in for whatever's hype at the moment and most have never put together a solid build.

First off, I notice ZCI is the chief choice of aftermarket barrel. What's the particular reasoning here? Obviously you can pick your length and boost your FPS a little bit, but in my experience I haven't noticed ZCI to be of any higher finish quality than most stock brass barrels, especially when you can polish those barrels for an accuracy boost. Any thoughts on ZCI's new ownership affecting their quality?

Secondly, I notice almost everyone here going for increased range picks the ML (Maple Leaf) Macaron. Why the Macaron over, say, the MR.Hop, which is a newer design and offers more consistent contact surface?

I notice a lack of the flat hop mod. You can turn most hop rubbers into ML equivalents within minutes using just a cordless drill and DIY yourself a flat nub out of any piece of plastic.

I notice most players/techs here seem to have a general dislike of/disdain for high RPS builds, even those constructed with trigger response in mind and not full-auto trolling. Is it related to rules and restrictions, general respect, or a disdain for those who abuse high ROF?

To most of the respected American techs, approximately 87% of the teching advice Luke at Negative puts out is utter nonsense... I agree in some cases. His porting video is pretty silly. Though perhaps it's all intentional. His stuff clearly works though.

Anything else y'all can think of? I know we tend to have higher FPS limits, and that changes how techs build--mostly I'm interested in learning the reasons behind different choices in order to improve my own builds. ?

 

[EDcase]

Welcome Leo,

Interesting thread.  I'm not much into tech'ing so can't comment really.

I would guess some upgrade choices are base on parts availability over here.

As for ROF question, personally I HATE high rates as it spoils the gameplay and if everyone went in that direction it would make games shite.  High ROF is for children with no skill ?

Some of the most fun games I've had were playing in single shot.

I'm sure you'll get more tech related replies...

 

[Impulse]

I can only give my opinion on each of these points, so...
 

First off, I notice ZCI is the chief choice of aftermarket barrel. What's the particular reasoning here? Obviously you can pick your length and boost your FPS a little bit, but in my experience I haven't noticed ZCI to be of any higher finish quality than most stock brass barrels, especially when you can polish those barrels for an accuracy boost. Any thoughts on ZCI's new ownership affecting their quality?

For me, I prefer stainless steel barrels to brass barrels as stainless steel barrels won't corrode and to me they seem to require cleaning a little less often. Had one brass barrel corrode pretty bad, while I still use the same stainless steel barrel in my first VSR build for the past... 14 years? It's pretty much that simple. Reason for ZCI is their prices are great for what you get; £25 for a stainless steel tightbore is pretty nice.

Secondly, I notice almost everyone here going for increased range picks the ML (Maple Leaf) Macaron. Why the Macaron over, say, the MR.Hop, which is a newer design and offers more consistent contact surface?

Trial and error for me. I've found that I might get a higher maximum range with the MR hop, but the macaron gives me way better consistency and better effective range. For me, effective range trumps maximum range every single time.

I notice a lack of the flat hop mod. You can turn most hop rubbers into ML equivalents within minutes using just a cordless drill and DIY yourself a flat nub out of any piece of plastic.

Nubs, probably, but I wouldn't want to try to replicate an autobot or macaron contact patch by hand, though I'm crap at that kind of thing. Also, hop rubbers are pretty damn cheap. They're usually less than £10 and the nub is less than £5, so it's not exactly breaking the bank.

I notice most players/techs here seem to have a general dislike of/disdain for high RPS builds, even those constructed with trigger response in mind and not full-auto trolling. Is it related to rules and restrictions, general respect, or a disdain for those who abuse high ROF?

I think it's "all of the above". I know my local site has a 25rps limit, because if you put a 1 second burst into someone that's still 25 BBs hitting them, potentially in the face. It's not nice getting absolutely hosed by someone with a wankergun build and an itchy trigger finger. I've got some pretty snappy builds, but none of them are over 20rps on full auto (and I never use full auto anyway). Also, if you're going that snappy, semi-auto might as well be full-auto. Insert the "that's not full auto, this is" video here.

Also also, full-auto on something that isn't a support gun is just a crutch for people who can't aim. The crutch gets bigger the higher the ROF. Change my mind

 

[Colin Allen]

First off, I notice ZCI is the chief choice of aftermarket barrel. What's the particular reasoning here? Obviously you can pick your length and boost your FPS a little bit, but in my experience I haven't noticed ZCI to be of any higher finish quality than most stock brass barrels, especially when you can polish those barrels for an accuracy boost. Any thoughts on ZCI's new ownership affecting their quality?

They are reasonably easily available, are a decent price and decent quality; what is not to like?

Secondly, I notice almost everyone here going for increased range picks the ML (Maple Leaf) Macaron. Why the Macaron over, say, the MR.Hop, which is a newer design and offers more consistent contact surface?

Having tried both, I agree that the MR Hop gives slightly longer range; however the Macaron gives significantly better consistency at a slightly shorter range.  Of the two, I will take consistency over a good range over inconsistency over a slightly greater range any day.
 

I notice a lack of the flat hop mod. You can turn most hop rubbers into ML equivalents within minutes using just a cordless drill and DIY yourself a flat nub out of any piece of plastic.

Why bother when Maple Leaf rubbers and nubs are easily available?
 

I notice most players/techs here seem to have a general dislike of/disdain for high RPS builds, even those constructed with trigger response in mind and not full-auto trolling. Is it related to rules and restrictions, general respect, or a disdain for those who abuse high ROF?

There are other ways of getting excellent trigger response than building a stupidly fast gun.  While there are a few players in the UK who seem to delight in hurting other players (Wanking Cumstain for one), many more seem to respect other players and regard very high speed builds as being somewhat unsporting and ungentlemanly.  I cannot remember when I last used full auto in a game; I also play at a couple of sites that have a 30m minimum engagement distance for full auto,

To most of the respected American techs, approximately 87% of the teching advice Luke at Negative puts out is utter nonsense... I agree in some cases. His porting video is pretty silly. Though perhaps it's all intentional. His stuff clearly works though.

Luke is a windup merchant who loves trolling and has stated that there is one inaccuracy in each of his videos; however, he is also a very good tech who builds some impressive guns and has creative approaches to solving problems.  I don't agree with him on everything and his comments on the Ares L1A1 are odd; yes, it has significant issues and is a pain in the arse, but some of the things that he mentions are just not accurate in my experience.

One difference that I have noticed between UK and US airsoft in general, and I have to point out that this is based solely on YouTube videos, is that some of your countrymen seem to suffer from a toxic combination of taking it far too seriously and possessing the maturity of a two year old. 

I would also point out that, by virtue of this being a forum, the denizens are probably not a representative cross section of the UK airsoft community.  The cool kids generally do not use forums and lurk on various new fangled social media platforms.  I suspect that the average age here is higher than that of UK players overall, the level of experience is greater and there is a more considered, informed and reflective approach.
 

 

[Impulse]

One difference that I have noticed between UK and US airsoft in general, and I have to point out that this is based solely on YouTube videos, is that some of your countrymen seem to suffer from a toxic combination of taking it far too seriously and possessing the maturity of a two year old. 

However, one thing I've observed (though again it's all 2nd hand info as I haven't been myself) is that Americans have a better attitude towards milsim; maybe it's got something to do with how prevalent real guns are in America so they get the idea that it's BB wars with toy guns better than we do over here. Milsim in the UK tends to have its head so far up its own arse that a lot of them forget we're still playing soldier running around the woods playing BB wars. From what I've seen in America, milsim is still milsim, but they seem to still hold onto that "we're just giant children" aspect a bit better and it seems more fun. Plenty of opportunities for trigger time at things like Milsim West, where the milsim I attended here, which was entry level, had me shooting a whole 1 time across the entire 24 hour game, and it was a scripted vehicle ambush where we as OpFor were essentially set up to fail.

 

[Colin Allen]

However, one thing I've observed (though again it's all 2nd hand info as I haven't been myself) is that Americans have a better attitude towards milsim; maybe it's got something to do with how prevalent real guns are in America so they get the idea that it's BB wars with toy guns better than we do over here. Milsim in the UK tends to have its head so far up its own arse that a lot of them forget we're still playing soldier running around the woods playing BB wars. From what I've seen in America, milsim is still milsim, but they seem to still hold onto that "we're just giant children" aspect a bit better and it seems more fun. Plenty of opportunities for trigger time at things like Milsim West, where the milsim I attended here, which was entry level, had me shooting a whole 1 time across the entire 24 hour game, and it was a scripted vehicle ambush where we as OpFor were essentially set up to fail.

I completely agree; many milsims in the UK seem to take it far too seriously, to the point where all the fun is sucked out of it, in the deluded belief that they are genuinely simulating military operations.

 

[Leo Greer]

I can only give my opinion on each of these points, so...
 

For me, I prefer stainless steel barrels to brass barrels as stainless steel barrels won't corrode and to me they seem to require cleaning a little less often. Had one brass barrel corrode pretty bad, while I still use the same stainless steel barrel in my first VSR build for the past... 14 years? It's pretty much that simple. Reason for ZCI is their prices are great for what you get; £25 for a stainless steel tightbore is pretty nice.

Trial and error for me. I've found that I might get a higher maximum range with the MR hop, but the macaron gives me way better consistency and better effective range. For me, effective range trumps maximum range every single time.

Also also, full-auto on something that isn't a support gun is just a crutch for people who can't aim. The crutch gets bigger the higher the ROF. Change my mind

Do y'all have Lambda in the UK? Here in the USA they're close-ish to ZCI's pricing (more like $30-45) but at PDI's finishing level.

Most of my builds hover in between 25 and 30 RPS on 11.1v and 16-20 on 7.4v--above that I believe is impractical. As I've become a better player I've begun playing more and more semi-auto only. At this point I typically use FA-burst only when suppressing corners or windows for teammates to move up, which I believe is a proper use.

Having tried both, I agree that the MR Hop gives slightly longer range; however the Macaron gives significantly better consistency at a slightly shorter range.  Of the two, I will take consistency over a good range over inconsistency over a slightly greater range any day.
 

Why bother when Maple Leaf rubbers and nubs are easily available?
 

There are other ways of getting excellent trigger response than building a stupidly fast gun.  While there are a few players in the UK who seem to delight in hurting other players (Wanking Cumstain for one), many more seem to respect other players and regard very high speed builds as being somewhat unsporting and ungentlemanly.  I cannot remember when I last used full auto in a game; I also play at a couple of sites that have a 30m minimum engagement distance for full auto,

Luke is a windup merchant who loves trolling and has stated that there is one inaccuracy in each of his videos; however, he is also a very good tech who builds some impressive guns and has creative approaches to solving problems.  I don't agree with him on everything and his comments on the Ares L1A1 are odd; yes, it has significant issues and is a pain in the arse, but some of the things that he mentions are just not accurate in my experience.

One difference that I have noticed between UK and US airsoft in general, and I have to point out that this is based solely on YouTube videos, is that some of your countrymen seem to suffer from a toxic combination of taking it far too seriously and possessing the maturity of a two year old. 

I would also point out that, by virtue of this being a forum, the denizens are probably not a representative cross section of the UK airsoft community.  The cool kids generally do not use forums and lurk on various new fangled social media platforms.  I suspect that the average age here is higher than that of UK players overall, the level of experience is greater and there is a more considered, informed and reflective approach.
 

Interesting findings on the Macaron vs. the MR.Hop--Y'all have convinced me I need to test those some more!

Price mostly. In the USA it costs about $16-18 to purchase a ML packing and nub combo (about 15 beans for you guys), which puts the cost of the rubber and nub at near the cost of a new motor. The main practical advantage of flat hopping vs replacement is usually compatibility with the original hop unit, and hopefully fitment to the nozzle, assuming the stock setup is any decent. If you have to purchase even the excellently priced ZCI hop unit in order to use your ML hop rubber it brings the cost up. Not a huge amount of money, but money spent regardless.

You would be correct about the toxic combo being real. Most of the players at my local field are good sportsmen and are just playing to have fun, but you get the occasional player who seems to show up just to cause trouble. And sometimes it's just that senile old 'Nam vet who doesn't think someone's "out" until they stop moving (true story).

I may not agree with everything he says, but there's no question that Luke is a huge asset to y'all's community. In the USA you very, very rarely find techs who both know what they're doing and offer their services for "ordinary man" prices.

That would be exactly why I'm on the forums and not on social media--I like to learn new things, practical approaches, and ways to do it better, and social media/Reddit rarely turn up anything besides hype. I've gone down the road of spending 400+ beans on "upgrade" parts only to have everything fail (and I spent six months trying to build that rifle). The average air softer at my local field is in between 13 and 15 and fits every stereotype you can think up, aside from most of them using Lancer Crapticals and not Lancer Polarstars. 

I completely agree; many milsims in the UK seem to take it far too seriously, to the point where all the fun is sucked out of it, in the deluded belief that they are genuinely simulating military operations.

Never been to a milsim myself--I look at ticket prices, and then I look at that part I wanted to try in my M4, and then I look at ticket prices again... and I end up buying myself a sandwich instead.

 

[Colin Allen]

Price mostly. In the USA it costs about $16-18 to purchase a ML packing and nub combo (about 15 beans for you guys), which puts the cost of the rubber and nub at near the cost of a new motor. The main practical advantage of flat hopping vs replacement is usually compatibility with the original hop unit, and hopefully fitment to the nozzle, assuming the stock setup is any decent. If you have to purchase even the excellently priced ZCI hop unit in order to use your ML hop rubber it brings the cost up. Not a huge amount of money, but money spent regardless.

In the UK, AK2M4 sells the Macaron and nub for £9.50; the ZCI hop unit is the same price.  I am not sure why one would need to buy a ZCI hop unit to run ML rubbers; they seem to work in a range of hop units.

Never been to a milsim myself--I look at ticket prices, and then I look at that part I wanted to try in my M4, and then I look at ticket prices again... and I end up buying myself a sandwich instead.

A decent decision.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Welcome to the forum

I'll leave the tech stuff as I tend to struggle with anything which doesn't involve duct tape or a hammer

most players/techs here seem to have a general dislike of/disdain for high RPS builds, even those constructed with trigger response in mind and not full-auto trolling. Is it related to rules and restrictions, general respect, or a disdain for those who abuse high ROF?

That's because 99% of the players running these very high rof builds are trying to over compensate for something, whether that's a lack of skill or something more personal. Strangely they also often whine the loudest when on the receiving end.

would also point out that, by virtue of this being a forum, the denizens are probably not a representative cross section of the UK airsoft community.  The cool kids generally do not use forums and lurk on various new fangled social media platforms.  I suspect that the average age here is higher than that of UK players overall, the level of experience is greater and there is a more considered, informed and reflective approach.

This. I left all the airsoft groups I was in on faceache as most of it was either bad advice or crappy youtube videos. Forums may be old, but the information tends to be of a higher quality and it's easier to search for so you don't get the same questions asked every other week 

 

[Leo Greer]

In the UK, AK2M4 sells the Macaron and nub for £9.50; the ZCI hop unit is the same price.  I am not sure why one would need to buy a ZCI hop unit to run ML rubbers; they seem to work in a range of hop units.

See, that's a way better price than we have in the USA!

This issue may not be as common or prevalent in the UK, but as different hop units have different size specs (almost always larger than Marui spec), a lot of hop units won't properly fit ML rubbers, because the front is too thick and disallows you from putting the clip back on. You also may need to use a longer nozzle to compensate for the slightly recessed hop rubber or lose air seal/accuracy. This happens on TM hop units, Arcturus units, Lancer G2 units, Classic Army units (one of the versions. low profile blue rotary), true Prowin units, Dytac clone Prowin units, and others that I can't remember at the moment. (the units named are all tested by me) Whereas the rubbers fit perfectly in larger spec units like G&G, Krytac, and Maxx.

 

[Colin Allen]

See, that's a way better price than we have in the USA!

This issue may not be as common or prevalent in the UK, but as different hop units have different size specs (almost always larger than Marui spec), a lot of hop units won't properly fit ML rubbers, because the front is too thick and disallows you from putting the clip back on. You also may need to use a longer nozzle to compensate for the slightly recessed hop rubber or lose air seal/accuracy. This happens on TM hop units, Arcturus units, Lancer G2 units, Classic Army units (one of the versions. low profile blue rotary), true Prowin units, Dytac clone Prowin units, and others that I can't remember at the moment. (the units named are all tested by me) Whereas the rubbers fit perfectly in larger spec units like G&G, Krytac, and Maxx.

Hmm,  I have a Macaron in a Lancer G2; it slid in like the proverbial and works fine with a standard M4 length nozzle.  I bought a second hand Lancer very cheaply to see if they were as bad as most people said; apart from it being incredibly picky with mags, I have found it to be ok.

Admittedly, I have never fitted one in any of the other units you list, but I have them in a wide range of hop units.

 

[Leo Greer]

Hmm,  I have a Macaron in a Lancer G2; it slid in like the proverbial and works fine with a standard M4 length nozzle.  I bought a second hand Lancer very cheaply to see if they were as bad as most people said; apart from it being incredibly picky with mags, I have found it to be ok.

Admittedly, I have never fitted one in any of the other units you list, but I have them in a wide range of hop units.

Huh--is the Macaron a different design than the Super and the MR.Hop? It's possible I'm incorrect here. On a side note, does your Lancer have the plastic bushings? The two that I've opened up have both had nylon bushings that were just below 8mm, but I know not all models in the G2 line were made the same.

 

[Colin Allen]

Huh--is the Macaron a different design than the Super and the MR.Hop? It's possible I'm incorrect here. On a side note, does your Lancer have the plastic bushings? The two that I've opened up have both had nylon bushings that were just below 8mm, but I know not all models in the G2 line were made the same.

I believe they are a slightly different design; I don't think the Macaron has the internal ring.

My Lancer has steel bushings.

 

[Skara]

First off, I notice ZCI is the chief choice of aftermarket barrel. What's the particular reasoning here? Obviously you can pick your length and boost your FPS a little bit, but in my experience I haven't noticed ZCI to be of any higher finish quality than most stock brass barrels, especially when you can polish those barrels for an accuracy boost. Any thoughts on ZCI's new ownership affecting their quality?

Price, for the most part.

I don't use ZCI barrels anymore (all my guns have weird barrel lengths now) but when I did, they were fine, maybe not really suited for high ROF guns because of the small inner diametre (6.02 is on the edge of being too tight for me)

Secondly, I notice almost everyone here going for increased range picks the ML (Maple Leaf) Macaron. Why the Macaron over, say, the MR.Hop, which is a newer design and offers more consistent contact surface?

I notice a lack of the flat hop mod. You can turn most hop rubbers into ML equivalents within minutes using just a cordless drill and DIY yourself a flat nub out of any piece of plastic.

I was one of the first to jump on the MR-Hop bandwagon and while the range increase was nice, I was (read am) getting way more consistency with Super Macarons, at the cost of a couple of metres less range than the MR. Also the MR needs a wide hop window to perform which is something you get only from a handful of barrel manufacturers unless you're confident in taking a dremel to your inner barrel.

Flat hops are old technology and while they were cool at the time, nowadays they're not worth the hassle of removing material from the hop rubber compared to a €8 ML rubber.

I notice most players/techs here seem to have a general dislike of/disdain for high RPS builds, even those constructed with trigger response in mind and not full-auto trolling. Is it related to rules and restrictions, general respect, or a disdain for those who abuse high ROF?

It's genuinely hard to tell. For me it's about the "softness" of people who don't like to be shot at (which kinda defies the whole point of playing Airsoft in the first place).

While I may agree that being peppered by a 40 RPS gun at close range gets old fast, but it's the user who needs to be limited, not the gun.

All my AEGs bar one can do well over 30 RPS with 11.1v batteries but I use them with 7.4s because I have durability in mind and a gun that runs well at silly high ROFs will wear down much less at "human" ROFs (yup, I mostly use full auto).

The only form of "respect" in airsoft is to call your fucking hits.

 

[Rogerborg]

it's the user who needs to be limited, not the gun

But why would you have  a wankergun unless you intend to be a wankergunner.

The only people I'd trust not to are you and me, and I'm not so sure about you.  

 

[Fatboy40]

Huh--is the Macaron a different design than the Super and the MR.Hop?

I won't talk about the Super Macron as I've no experience with it, but the Macaron and the MR are VERY different buckings.

You can slap a Macaron on almost any inner barrel, and into almost any hop unit, its the Swiss Army Knife of grouping and hop improvement.

The MR is really designed to be used with Maple Leaf's own AEG inner barrels for a few reasons...

# It has a protruding ring inside the circumference of the bucking, this slots into a specific cut-out on a Maple Leaf AEG inner barrel to improve its air-seal and reduce movement. On a standard inner barrel this can actually reduce the air-seal as the bucking is not tight on the barrel and can make it harder to fit in the hop unit.

# The patch on an MR bucking is longer and will not sit correctly on most inner barrels. Look at the inner barrel "window" / "cut-out" on a Maple Leaf AEG and compare it to any other, notice how the window is longer and slopes upwards, this is to perfectly accommodate the MR's patch.

Some have said that Prometheus inner barrels can also accommodate MR bucking's properly, but don't take my word for it (personally I've two rifles with MR buckings + Maple Leaf AEG inner barrels and either the Omega nub or the solid concave nub from a Maxx hop unit and the range and consistency improvement with heavy BB's is great (I'm buying a third ML inner barrel on pay day for my son's AEG)). 

 

[Krisz]

Price, for the most part.

I don't use ZCI barrels anymore (all my guns have weird barrel lengths now) but when I did, they were fine, maybe not really suited for high ROF guns because of the small inner diametre (6.02 is on the edge of being too tight for me)

I was one of the first to jump on the MR-Hop bandwagon and while the range increase was nice, I was (read am) getting way more consistency with Super Macarons, at the cost of a couple of metres less range than the MR. Also the MR needs a wide hop window to perform which is something you get only from a handful of barrel manufacturers unless you're confident in taking a dremel to your inner barrel.

Flat hops are old technology and while they were cool at the time, nowadays they're not worth the hassle of removing material from the hop rubber compared to a €8 ML rubber.

It's genuinely hard to tell. For me it's about the "softness" of people who don't like to be shot at (which kinda defies the whole point of playing Airsoft in the first place).

While I may agree that being peppered by a 40 RPS gun at close range gets old fast, but it's the user who needs to be limited, not the gun.

All my AEGs bar one can do well over 30 RPS with 11.1v batteries but I use them with 7.4s because I have durability in mind and a gun that runs well at silly high ROFs will wear down much less at "human" ROFs (yup, I mostly use full auto).

The only form of "respect" in airsoft is to call your fucking hits.

High ROF outdoor is the same when someone spams the trigger on semi indoor because of lack of skill.

Assuming almost everyone calls their hits in this hobby no one needs to peppered. Overshooting or overkilling is always pointless in my opinion and extremely annoying when you're on the receiving end. Getting shot is a natural part of this game but that doesn't mean people should get carried away just because they've got ego problems or they have to compansate for their mundane life.

 

[Skara]

> fires spherical lightweight "bullets" out of expensive glorified toy muskets

> Musket and bullet have zero repeatability due to their nature 

> "Skills"

Okay.

 

[Colin Allen]

For me it's about the "softness" of people who don't like to be shot at (which kinda defies the whole point of playing Airsoft in the first place).

Utter bollocks.  Getting shot at is part of the game; getting hosed at 5m by some Monstered up twat with his 40 RPS wankergun is not.  It has fuck all to do with softness or hardness and everything to do with respecting other players.

 

[Tommikka]

The only people I'd trust not to are you and me, and I'm not so sure about you.  

Do you know Elvis who works down the chip shop?

He’s a liar …… and I’m not sure about you 

?

Utter bollocks.  Getting shot at is part of the game; getting hosed at 5m by some Monstered up twat with his 40 RPS wankergun is not.  It has fuck all to do with softness or hardness and everything to do with respecting other players.

Respecting other people ……. The first person I shot in game was a marshal - serves him right for walking through a bush 

And the next to vie for the top ten of being shot is photographers …… but most of those times it serves me right for leaning in to get ‘that photo’ of the line of fire

Getting shot is part of the game, and for me it’s the whole point of the game 

I thrive on the adrenaline of “will I / won’t I get shot?”, and “can I get one step closer”, and another step etc

The first time I was shot by a BB I did let out a yelp followed by the moment of thinking that it doesn’t hurt

(Photographing a game, knealt down just inside a warehouse door as a player ran past outside shooting in, and got the back of my neck)

With good lashings of adrenaline I can ‘not feel’ BBs or paintballs, just notice the impact - and I’ve had to have it pointed out to me about my swollen forehead or bleeding head.  But on a cold & wet miserable day before I’ve warmed up the slightest thing hurts.

The exception is fingers - they always hurt, and now due to a medical condition get the wrong finger tip and I’ll be screaming the site down 

We play games with consensual shooting of each other - some people are extra cockwombles about it