Europe Vs. America

[Rogerborg]

In the USA, you are allowed to waive your right to sue.

Hmm, with an interesting distinction between "ordinary" and "gross" negligence.  Well, interesting, and lucrative for lawyers arguing over the difference.

We have a blanket voiding of any such terms, for any degree of negligence.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50/section/2
 

"A person cannot by reference to any contract term or to a notice given to persons generally or to particular persons exclude or restrict his liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/65

"A trader cannot by a term of a consumer contract or by a consumer notice exclude or restrict liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence."

(Losses other than injury or death can be reasonably waived)

 

[BigStew]

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

If a site is exclusive to airsoft, is it so good a site/experience that it can run a viable business in that manner?  Or are they only doing airsoft, not doing the basics and relying on ‘player marshals’ to work for free / pay for the privilege to work ?

(Bearing in mind I’m going to be working for free this weekend, and not only that but I’m getting up early Friday morning after getting back from London on the late train, to pickup, drive, work for free, nip off for a wedding reception and work for free the rest of the weekend.  But that is for free entry, and build / expand friends business …. Not the entire business model)

The rant on the basics of event safety may be over

Most sites are restricted to 24 or 28 game days a year before they become crippled by business rates and planning permission restrictions ( hence why you don't get many milsims they are rarely profitable so why lose a regular walk on day?) . Airsoft is trapped by limited customer base who aren't prepared to pay what it would cost to be more than in most cases a one man show that depends on volunteers who do it for free games and petrol money. Add eye watering insurance premiums high rent and uncertain durations( how much are you willing to invest if you are going to lose your site in a years time to a housing developer are wind farm?) 

 

[Cannonfodder]

IIRC insurance can also be a limiting factor for the number of game days a site can run.

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

Personally I'd prefer them not to be as in my experience it can often have a negative effect on the quality of the games they put on, either because the site owners are more interested in taking your money than putting on a decent gameday or the site layout suffers as they need to accommodate the other activities.

 

[Tommikka]

 ( hence why you don't get many milsims they are rarely profitable …. 

As an event organiser, been there, done that, and literally do have the T shirts, hoodies, etc…. ‘Profit’ just means we didn’t spend enough 

But we have never run anything for the money, only ‘for players, by players’, and design / run the games that we wanted to play but only getting to watch others 

Our first events were for the privilege of running the events, income to the site and charity … and our date in the calendar was due to the site finally calling our bluff and giving us a weekend in the quiet season - but benefited in the sense that we opened the event season each year. (Even so far that a commercial organiser that scheduled a game on the same date as ours and ‘allegedly’ were going to end us. That didn’t happen)

We have profited. But everything has gone straight back in, or more often two of us have personally ‘invested’ far too much up front for specific events.  I know what’s in the accounts, and I’ve a hunch about the ballpark of the rest.

That doesn’t count sponsorship.  We’ve been very proud of what we’ve done with their products, but as sponsorship is a form of advertising it’s hard to believe they get their VFM - especially having sponsored teams myself, though that started as a joke and ended up with people actually paying for my services

Most sites are restricted to 24 or 28 game days a year before they become crippled by business rates and planning permission restrictions 

One in particular I’m aware of has not only the annual number of days limited, but also  a direct cost for just having one person step on site.

That’s directly impacted on our event planning & preparation 

 

[Tommikka]

…..business rates and planning permission restrictions

….limited customer base

….depends on volunteers who do it for free games and petrol money.

…. insurance premiums

….high rent and

…..uncertain durations

….. often have a negative effect on the quality of the games they put on,

All valid reasons and also everywhere has different circumstances

But it’s no excuse for failing basic safety standards 

If it’s not financially viable and they can’t afford to have someone actually check & enforce chrono then it’s verged on the fly by night cowboy 

 

[Cannonfodder]

But it’s no excuse for failing basic safety standards 

If it’s not financially viable and they can’t afford to have someone actually check & enforce chrono then it’s verged on the fly by night cowboy 

No arguments there, I've no idea of the actual costs of setting up and running a site but I'm sure the cost of a chrono is minimal in comparison and any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse (and would make me wonder what else they're bullshitting about)

 

[Rogerborg]

any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse

Lets talk honestly: most site runners would rather sit in their shop being noshed off by a coterie of matey-mates, than actively walk around the safe zone welcoming rentals and newbies, or telling people things that they won't want to hear at the chrono station.

That's an observation, not a value judgement.

 

[Tommikka]

Lets talk honestly: most site runners would rather sit in their shop being noshed off by a coterie of matey-mates, than actively walk around the safe zone welcoming rentals and newbies, or telling people things that they won't want to hear at the chrono station.

That's an observation, not a value judgement.

Wrong 

It is a valid & valued judgement 

 

[Tommikka]

No arguments there, I've no idea of the actual costs of setting up and running a site but I'm sure the cost of a chrono is minimal in comparison and any site owner who says they can't afford a chrono is obviously talking out of their arse (and would make me wonder what else they're bullshitting about)

A chrono could be sourced in the region of £50 to £100 (even cheaper too, but ideally a site should be going for something over £100 to actually go through regular use

Back in my early days of paintball, when taking my own gun to a rental site the ‘magic chrono tree’ was often use because the staff couldn’t be bothered to go in the shed and find the site one

(assuming that they even had one for the site guns)

For events there would be one ‘big red’ box official site chrono, and a long queue which was made twice as long because of those players that had to keep going back to tune down within limit and also keep going back to turn up if they went too low

So I bought my own basic yellow handheld so I could set up ready myself then get through official chrono first time 

I upgraded to an X-radar grey handheld when it was released for the ease of use plus ROF.

Both of those were circa £80 to £100

(the x radar has a hardier site version to go on a tripod and doesn’t need the button pressed for manual checking - obviously will cost more)

Events would now be expected to have tables of self checking chronos, which would get manned for official checks, and Marshall’s out carrying handhelds

A tournament would have a self check chrono area, official handheld 100% check as teams go into the first games.

Followed by spot checks

These will be using the Virtue clock handheld series.  Ours was £200 for the v1 which is still the dogs testicals

Upgraded versions will be in the £200 to £300 and I think there’s a new one circa £400 which will give you a back massage as you check the player 

A site that’s properly serious might want one that collects data & produces reports - but we’re just after something to make a site just make the effort of checking 

In airsoft I’ve typically seen that the ‘shoot through’ style could be the preference, but they are all just a classic speed gun piece that is ideally optimised to spot a flying thing in a suitable range of velocities - and that’s exactly what the clock looks like 

Our clock is so much fun and can even chrono a paintball at a distance. (I wouldn’t trust that for accuracy snd don’t know if it could spot a BB from a distance)

But I’ve been able to spot a dodgy player and sneakily chrono without them knowing before pouncing.

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[BigStew]

I always wonder if airsoft sites should become sports clubs rather than business but could see it would be too easy for one team to muscle control if they were large enough. for now we are stuck in a twilight need the sport to be legit but being too legit could see every site under too many local councils/ civil servants with agendas and egos that either want any reason top shut sites down or bleed them dry ( the current model sites operate on are not a route to obscene wealth as many seem to think).  

 

[Tommikka]

I always wonder if airsoft sites should become sports clubs rather than business but could see it would be too easy for one team to muscle control if they were large enough. for now we are stuck in a twilight need the sport to be legit but being too legit could see every site under too many local councils/ civil servants with agendas and egos that either want any reason top shut sites down or bleed them dry ( the current model sites operate on are not a route to obscene wealth as many seem to think).  

Not for the running side (as dickheads will be dickheads) and what I would consider a ‘well run’ site should be on a business basis.

If an airsoft site is basically a local club for the local airsoft regulalars then why couldn’t it be on a ‘sports club’ basis?

(An element of business methodology will be required for using the venue/land, insurance, permission via the council etc)

When I refer to event organising we aren’t doing it as a business but as a ‘sports club’ style team 

But there is a point there ….. and the proof was shown when ‘COVID reopening dates’ happened / didn’t happen

Reopening included ‘sports clubs’ and the criteria needed to be Sport England (or equivalent) recognition, and council approval.

Council approval was pretty much rubber stamping of the Sport England recognition.

Sport England recognition has very specific criteria - paintball does not meet that.  But did get endorsed by Sport England for reopening.

Recognition includes many things such as a governing body, the scale of player membership, sites/venues operating under governing body standards etc

There has been work underway for many years pressing for that, the UKPSF exists and isn’t a compulsory governing body to operate, but is a recognised body across the industry and the home office
(Active) Player membership wasn’t sufficient.  This year they have passed the threshold

UKARA wouldn’t necessarily count as a governing body, but it is a representation for the trade community and is recognised as a way to establish ‘active player membership’ of something

(in the threads back at the time there were the other ‘body’s’ such as whatever the airsoft players Union is called.

A combination of those could make the way to a recognisable airsoft governing body

Come the day of opening being announced by government paintball & airsoft sites announced their first post COVID game dates.

Then read the small print.  
UKPSF cleared the criteria with Sport England paintball member sites read the UKPSF guidelines and were able to get a tick in the box from the council - even though paintball was not on the format sport ‘recognition list’ but did have confirmation of meeting the opening recognition criteria 

Non member paintball sites may or may not have just opened anyway

Airsoft sites then began to announce that they wouldn’t be opening,  some may or may not have opened anyway

Even with sites run purely as businesses the sports recognition would apply to the activity.

It is also not about the moaning every 4 years that dancing, gymnastics, chess, etc are in the Olympics then why can’t my hobby be a sport ?

But it opens the doors (literally during COVID) but also to council support, government grants, lottery grants and we’ve now missed the boat on EU grants

Got a little airsoft site? Struggling with the basics of running a safe chrono?

Talk to your governing body, set up a club with youth opportunities, get a grant to put in safe practices and fund some chronos ….

 

[Rogerborg]

If an airsoft site is basically a local club for the local airsoft regulalars then why couldn’t it be on a ‘sports club’ basis?

That is an interesting suggestion, although rentals are such a big part of some sites that it might be a tricky one to argue if put on the spot by the Clipboard Stasi.

The Depot 1.0's Old Abandoned Furniture Factory was (notionally) owned and run by a local sports charity for local neds, thereby evadi- I mean, avoiding £180,000 a year in business rates.

 

[Tommikka]

That is an interesting suggestion, although rentals are such a big part of some sites that it might be a tricky one to argue if put on the spot by the Clipboard Stasi.

The Depot 1.0's Old Abandoned Furniture Factory was (notionally) owned and run by a local sports charity for local neds, thereby evadi- I mean, avoiding £180,000 a year in business rates.

Yes - rentals do mean you need a business

You can have a club element, but there’s no benefit to the way of running 

….. and of course the unknown element of random rentals off the street is a whole different ball game of consensual ‘player marshalling’

Run it properly

, avoiding £180,000 a year in business rates.

There are some fun ways of avoiding / minimising business rates

 

[Skara]

If an airsoft site is basically a local club for the local airsoft regulalars then why couldn’t it be on a ‘sports club’ basis?

That is how airsoft is ran here in Italy.

We don't have sites, we have clubs (teams), each club has its own "field" either private or public, each club member pays for a yearly insurance fee (not much, about €23) + yearly club subscription fee.

Rentals are managed through one-time use insurance "cards" + whatever equipment the club has.

Treating airsoft as a business leads to very poor choices imo.

 

[Rogerborg]

We don't have sites, we have clubs (teams)

It's an interesting model, but I can't say that I'm super keen on the sort of tribalism and over-competitive shenanigans that you've (occasionally) described.  I got out of historic re-enactment precisely because what should be a fun, casual hobby became a commitment to "support the club" at every event.

While I might grumble a bit - no, no, don't be shocked! - I'm actually pretty happy with the way airsoft operates at the local sites here.

 

[Leo Greer]

I spend about half my airsoft time at the field, but mostly I play on eight acres of woods with my "team" (friends). If you have enough buddies and enough space it's the best of all worlds: great players, create your own rulesets and game modes, and no worries about costs or insurance.

The biggest trouble is finding a place where its legal, or property owned by an acquaintance.