Europe Vs. America

[Krisz]

> fires spherical lightweight "bullets" out of expensive glorified toy muskets

> Musket and bullet have zero repeatability due to their nature 

> "Skills"

Okay.

Sounds silly but you can get better at airsoft especially indoor. There is always a lot to learn. 

 

[Leo Greer]

Sounds silly but you can get better at airsoft especially indoor. There is always a lot to learn. 

There are a couple frequent players that I learn something new from almost every time I play with them. I'll camp a corner or hold down a lane, and they'll use a creative method or strategy to take me out, and then I get to copy their tactics and apply it to the next guy. ?

On the subject of "wankerguns" and "wankermen"...

No reason to prohibit "wankerguns" as long as rules are applied. If we prohibit guns that are capable of hurting people more than others, then we should also ban anything higher than base joule limits. It wouldn't be much fun if we banned all snipers just because they're capable of hurting people more when used in violation of their MEDs.

I recently put together a 70 RPS DSG that shoots at 1.5J, which is normal rifleman FPS for the USA but would be considered a DMR at many of y'all's UK sites, if not all of them. So I basically have a 70 RPS DMR, which is a wankergun by any definition. I built it to see if I could do it, and to have some fun with extreme trigger response, not to full auto people in the rear ends. I once had a fellow DSG tech comment that the only time you should hear DSG full auto at a field is in the staging area as a tech flex, and I agree with that approach.

Sure you can semi-spam, but even with 70 RPS available I can't spam faster than a 20 RPS stock gun can full auto. maybe with a blade trigger setup, but who uses those outdoors?

Wankermen, on the other hand...

Any idiot with a stock gun can hurt someone or ruin a game shooting someone under MED, especially in the USA where guns can come pretty hot out of the box (a lot of JG rifles will do up to 1.7J OOTB). Any idiot can also have a tech build a high FPS gun and do their best Dicking Crustang impression.

The best way I've found to deal with Wankermen is to simply outplay them. Most often they're not very good, and are merely hiding behind a tough persona or the ability to send waves of BBs down field. Playing smarter will net you more wins than shooting faster.

If you don't like the players at a site, then leave. The point is to have fun, not to win, and if you're not having fun you're not doing any good being there. (this is a note to myself, as I can definitely get a little hotheaded and technical about rules when I feel things are unfair)

Honestly the most dangerous players, in my experience, are noobs. They may be fine people, but they tend to have low awareness of rules, field respect, what you do and don't, etc.

QC spring guides are also dangerous--I played with a very stupid, very innocent new player who'd put an M150 into his stock Lancer and not known he had to chronograph. We only figured out what was going on after his BBs were chipping the cinderblocks some players were hiding behind. Complete idiot. He wasn't being malicious, but he was still dangerous. And his gearbox promptly crapped itself. As expected. Problem solved.

I won't talk about the Super Macron as I've no experience with it, but the Macaron and the MR are VERY different buckings.

You can slap a Macaron on almost any inner barrel, and into almost any hop unit, its the Swiss Army Knife of grouping and hop improvement.

The MR is really designed to be used with Maple Leaf's own AEG inner barrels for a few reasons...

# It has a protruding ring inside the circumference of the bucking, this slots into a specific cut-out on a Maple Leaf AEG inner barrel to improve its air-seal and reduce movement. On a standard inner barrel this can actually reduce the air-seal as the bucking is not tight on the barrel and can make it harder to fit in the hop unit.

# The patch on an MR bucking is longer and will not sit correctly on most inner barrels. Look at the inner barrel "window" / "cut-out" on a Maple Leaf AEG and compare it to any other, notice how the window is longer and slopes upwards, this is to perfectly accommodate the MR's patch.

Some have said that Prometheus inner barrels can also accommodate MR bucking's properly, but don't take my word for it (personally I've two rifles with MR buckings + Maple Leaf AEG inner barrels and either the Omega nub or the solid concave nub from a Maxx hop unit and the range and consistency improvement with heavy BB's is great (I'm buying a third ML inner barrel on pay day for my son's AEG)). 

The best barrel I've found for the MR.Hop are TNT barrels. Conveniently, TNT barrels are also overpriced by a huge margin. ?

Lambda, which are not overpriced, do fit them well though.

I have a couple of Prommy barrels sitting around right now, so I could probably test that out. I'm out of town at the moment though so don't expect instant results...

 

[Impulse]

It wouldn't be much fun if we banned all snipers just because they're capable of hurting people more when used in violation of their MEDs.

Some sites do, at least for part of the year because it gets hard to use them and observe their MEDs. I'm not talking about CQB sites either, I know that Gunman do it at Eversley Alpha for the summer months and that's a woodland site, since the ferns grow quite high. It's entirely possible to use a 2.3J sniper rifle and be effective during the summer, but they ban them because too many people are crap at doing so.

Doesn't matter to me, I run my bolt actions at 1.1J for the mostpart, because my local site doesn't have long sight lines, even during the winter. I'll run them at 2.3J if I'm going to an event away from my home site and I reckon I'll get use out of the extra power, like at AI500 last month.

 

[Rogerborg]

And one of my locals has sodded off "DMRs" (i.e. anything over 1.2J and not bolt action).  You also have to play once with something <1.2J before being OK to use a bolt action over 1.2J - and even then, it's an "ask first".  30 RPS limit, 0.46g limit for snipers, 0.34g for everything else, 25m minimum range for auto (rather than the more typical 10 or so).

https://www.playersofwar.co.uk/site-rules

I am fully on board with setting limits like this, and the site is booked solid every game day so it's not harming them.

 

[Cannonfodder]

I recently put together a 70 RPS DSG that shoots at 1.5J, which is normal rifleman FPS for the USA but would be considered a DMR at many of y'all's UK sites, if not all of them. So I basically have a 70 RPS DMR, which is a wankergun by any definition. I built it to see if I could do it, and to have some fun with extreme trigger response, not to full auto people in the rear ends.

If it's capable of full auto at 1.5j then it wouldn't just be a wankergun, it'd be a section 5 firearm. I get where you're coming from though, the problem isn't the gun but the flesh coloured squishy bit attached to it. Unfortunately though while many sites will talk the talk about zero tolerance to cheats and cuntish behaviour, not so many actually walk the walk and deal with them, especially if the wanker in question is a regular

Sounds silly but you can get better at airsoft especially indoor. There is always a lot to learn. 

Definitely. There are many ways to improve your game, whether it's trying out new tactics or improving your fieldcraft, without having to do upgrades to your gun

We only figured out what was going on after his BBs were chipping the cinderblocks some players were hiding behind.

I'd put the blame there on the site. The gun should've been chrono'd before being allowed onto the field.

It's genuinely hard to tell. For me it's about the "softness" of people who don't like to be shot at (which kinda defies the whole point of playing Airsoft in the first place).

It's not about not liking to be shot but not liking to be shot more than necessary. It only takes 1 bb to get a hit so (assuming all are calling their hits) dumping 20+ shots into someone in half a second is just being a cunt. 

 

[Rogerborg]

I built it to see if I could do it

There is no finer reason.

My concern - and won't somebody think of the children! -  is that stuff that's built by sensible sorts then gets sold on to fund the next project.  And even if you sell to a carefully vetted vet, you can't control where it goes two or three owners down the line.  I'd rather that sort of toy just didn't exist at all, lest it end up in the hands of Mr No-Full-Auto-In-Buildings-Bro.

 

[Tiercel]

Flat/R hopping was all the rage here like 10 years ago when I first started people were wanking themselves silly over it, it was too much effort back then and its too much effort now when a good maple leaf rubber and omega nub achieve the same results  

The biggest difference between UK and US airsoft is you dont get stuff like this happening here

Also see wankergun/wankergunner  High RPS is for people who cant aim and have no skill.

 

[Leo Greer]

My concern - and won't somebody think of the children! -  is that stuff that's built by sensible sorts then gets sold on to fund the next project.  And even if you sell to a carefully vetted vet, you can't control where it goes two or three owners down the line.  I'd rather that sort of toy just didn't exist at all, lest it end up in the hands of Mr No-Full-Auto-In-Buildings-Bro.

This is an extremely valid reason. The one consolation is that once you get past 45 RPS parts tend to wear a lot faster, and without skillful maintenance can easily grenade themselves, since you're so close to PME. Any kind of compression jam and your gearbox goes kaput. Definitely something to think about, especially in the USA where it's not crazily uncommon to see builds pushing 60 RPS up for sale.

Not that this lessens my own responsibility, but I will point out that anyone can buy a Polarstar and achieve much the same thing. Maybe not 70 RPS, but you can push 50 without real trouble. I'm not sure how prevalent HPA is in the UK, but it's very common at certain site here to see "kids" (13-16 yo wankuhs) with serious HPA setups, as I'm sure y'all know from the YouTube crap. Thankfully that doesn't go on at most fields.

 

[Cannonfodder]

Hpa is quite common over here. You're right about hpa set ups being an easy route to getting a wankergun and that's probably why it has a bit of a bad rep. For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

 

[BigStew]

Hpa is quite common over here. You're right about hpa set ups being an easy route to getting a wankergun and that's probably why it has a bit of a bad rep. For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

I don't think HPA is synonymous with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

 

[Leo Greer]

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

Things may be very different at your local fields, but at least in my experience,  it depends, again, on who's shooting the gun. For some examples of perfectly clean, no BS HPA gameplay, check out this guy: Chaos Wolf Airsoft I play with him regularly--he pretty much only uses reserved semi.

 

[Cannonfodder]

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater

Maybe cheater is the wrong word but there are definitely some who see a player with a hpa set up and automatically assume the person is going to be fiddling with the regulator or over killing. Don't get me wrong, I've met quite a few dickheads with HPA guns but I've also met HPA players who are really stand up players. Imo the stigma comes from the fact that its easier for someone to act like a cunt with hpa than an aeg as turning an allen key or spanner doesn't involve the teching skills that building a similar performing aeg does

 it depends, again, on who's shooting the gun

This.  As with many things in life, the problems are caused by the flesh coloured squishy bit

 

[Impulse]

I don't think HPA is synonyms with cheater just being a spamming wanker, which from personal experience seems to be the case.

Only HPA guns I have are a bolt action sniper rifle and a semi-auto m21 build (so... another sniper rifle).

Not all HPA users are spammy wankers, and not all spammy wankers are HPA users.

 

[Tommikka]

The ease of HPA abuse (or let’s be a little bit fair that perhaps the player ‘innocently’ fiddles with an Allen key) …. surely the site could easily lock/tag the regulator, tape/tag any access panels to a circuit board?

Because they are of course running a clear & consistent chrono and tagging process? And have management/staff who are experienced / capable of watching gameplay to spot usual/unusual ranges being achieved, the sound of appropriate/inappropriate rates of fire and also conduct valid random and where appropriate targeted in game and game entry chrono checks ……

((PS I know that I’m not experienced enough to spot these in airsoft, but in paintball my spidey senses can tingle when one players shooting sounds very different to the rest / usual play, and / or that pop-whoosh-splat/ding has a different ring to it))

Ive chronoed & velocity checked players who have been all good - just well tuned and efficient, but I’ve also caught the odd ‘rogue spike’ that’s magically occurred 

 

[Rogerborg]

Because they are of course running a clear & consistent chrono and tagging process? And have management/staff who are experienced / capable of watching gameplay to spot usual/unusual ranges being achieved, the sound of appropriate/inappropriate rates of fire and also conduct valid random and where appropriate targeted in game and game entry chrono checks

Not sure if serious, but damn, that's funny either way.

I honestly can't recall the last time I saw decent marshalling.  Absent, distracted, disinterested, timid, or professionally angry, sure, plenty of that.

I really must get along to the new Depot 2.0, as the old site had the only really solid marshalling that I've ever seen, anywhere that I've played.

 

[Tackle]

 For example there's one person on here who seems to think hpa automatically equals cheater

Wot only one ?

 

[Tommikka]

Not sure if serious, but damn, that's funny either way.

I honestly can't recall the last time I saw decent marshalling.  Absent, distracted, disinterested, timid, or professionally angry, sure, plenty of that.

I really must get along to the new Depot 2.0, as the old site had the only really solid marshalling that I've ever seen, anywhere that I've played.

You would have hoped it was serious

But real life doesn’t appear to have these basics in place to ensure the basics are enforced……

On a fairly serious tack of the same subject, a site ought to have insurance and to adhere to VCRA/UKARA principles would be insured ??? and also any basis HSE/council checks a business open to the public ought to have industry standards systems and working practices in place 

For airsoft/paintball/activity insurance there should be a risk assessment, mitigations and an insurance price based on the remaining risk.

An insurer may have just sold a ‘standard’ insurance package for the related industry/activity.  But even that will have small print and obligation on the site.

Waivers are well known on here for being misnamed / misunderstood - they are not a get out clause relieving a site of responsibility, but a confirmation that the player or their responsible adult understands and will comply with the basic safety requirements - therefore the basis safety requirements should be documented, made available and also complied with by the site.

It’s laughable that many sites ‘cannot afford the staff’,  but airsoft is supposedly ‘cheaper’ because it has plastic balls that take up less storage space and also don’t degrade in days / hours.

There is the argument that it’s a luxury activity when people are choosey on how they spend their money when the economy isn’t great, alongside with the overheads of a site - but airsoft is always ‘cheaper’ even in an economy boom.

If the site can’t afford to run the basics

of the staff to do safety checks then the price should go up or the business isn’t viable 

Both airsoft & paintball are arguably sold too cheaply to the player.  
In paintball the ‘high expense’ is down to street ticket sellers under cutting other brands in the 80s/90s resulting in Delta Force dominance (and its name changes) and then laying on the real extra costs on the day

Paintball is now in a trap that no site can up its price as their competition will take the customers.  All they can do is put in various price structures and to diversify with multiple activities available - give the options that customers are going to want, and also help sell to stag/hen/corporates with a multi activity day 

Airsoft really ought to also be run on multi activity sites on a business basis (including zombie experiences etc)

If a site is exclusive to airsoft, is it so good a site/experience that it can run a viable business in that manner?  Or are they only doing airsoft, not doing the basics and relying on ‘player marshals’ to work for free / pay for the privilege to work ?

(Bearing in mind I’m going to be working for free this weekend, and not only that but I’m getting up early Friday morning after getting back from London on the late train, to pickup, drive, work for free, nip off for a wedding reception and work for free the rest of the weekend.  But that is for free entry, and build / expand friends business …. Not the entire business model)

The rant on the basics of event safety may be over

 

[Leo Greer]

Glad this thread is going in interesting directions...

 

[Rogerborg]

Glad this thread is going in interesting directions...

Revisiting old ground for us.

I have a lot of sympathy for site runners, as it tends to be a weekend passion project for them, not a pay-the-rent business. On the other hand, I agree with @Tommikkathat many of them are half-arsing it and hoping for the best.

I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the Great State of Texas, but in the UK we can't waive our statutory rights to sue for negligence that results in death or injury.  And yet most sites require us to sign these silly waivers that profess to do just that.  It's a little concerning that they seem to believe they have a get-out clause, given that on most sites, on most days, you can see shenanigans unfold that they should (by their own published rules) be dealing with.  Generally minor stuff, but people - children, even - do sometimes lose an eye.

 

[Leo Greer]

Revisiting old ground for us.

I figured.

I have a lot of sympathy for site runners, as it tends to be a weekend passion project for them, not a pay-the-rent business. On the other hand, I agree with @Tommikkathat many of them are half-arsing it and hoping for the best.

I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the Great State of Texas, but in the UK we can't waive our statutory rights to sue for negligence that results in death or injury.  And yet most sites require us to sign these silly waivers that profess to do just that.  It's a little concerning that they seem to believe they have a get-out clause, given that on most sites, on most days, you can see shenanigans unfold that they should (by their own published rules) be dealing with.  Generally minor stuff, but people - children, even - do sometimes lose an eye.

In the USA, you are allowed to waive your right to sue. People still will try, and it's a hassle for the site, but there's no legal grounds, and most sites nowadays should be under LLCs anyways.

Had a guy just recently get a BB stuck underneath his tongue. I don't get why people think wearing only glasses is cool...