Engagement Distance for Snipers

[Hatchet]

Same with the bipod. Most of the time they're just dead weight and you're better off bracing against an arm/leg/tree, etc. Particularly with VSR, adding a bipod is probably going to near double the weight anyway (okay, a slight exaggeration, but then again I've got this Parker-Hale bipod that probably makes that an accurate statement)

Usually bipods end up just being used to stand the gun in the safe zone on rather than shoot from, unless you're talking something particularly heavy (support weapon, EBR-14, etc). However, if you're determined to have one, I'd suggest something like a Harris - I'm sure there are plenty of clones but I've not used them. They're lightweight and quick to deploy with spring loaded legs and usually the ability to cant to one side or other to keep the rifle level.

 

[Reef]

Thanks, I told him to just use the terrain or branches to hold the gun up. Anything that makes it notably heavier I think is bad news, one of its key things is it’s so light. 
I’ll get him to try again and see what he says.

Great idea on the pouch, I’ve used something similar for camera lenses in the past.

 

[Impulse]

I'm a massive advocate for bipods, but on something lightweight like a VSR it isn't worth it. As @Hatchet said, it almost doubles the weight, or at least it feels like it because it massively shifts the weight of the rifle because it's lightweight by itself, so a large lump of metal near the front makes it front heavy and nasty to handle. For heavier stuff like M14s it's worth it because they're heavier, so harder to hold up for long periods of time anyway, and also because they're heavier the bipod doesn't have such a massive impact on the balance of the rifle, but I wouldn't put one on a VSR unless you get the heavier Maple Leaf stock; the regular stock and receiver setup's strength is that it's so light.

The sand sock has been used in the military for a long time. It's basically just a sock that is filled with sand and then tied off so it's a good rifle rest. I liked @concretesnail's idea of getting a tear-off pouch and filling it with soft stuff and then using that as a rest, as that's likely going to be fairly lightweight and can be worn on a belt kit or chest rig so you won't feel the weight much anyway, but will give you a steady place to rest your rifle when in a hide position.

Glad to hear the lad enjoyed running around with a bolt action, even one that was under-powered and still saddled with an MED; it's a very satisfying way of playing for sure! I would actually focus on the rifle before going for a ghillie though, as he'll learn better camo and concealment fieldcraft if he doesn't get reliant on a ghillie suit. It's amazing what you can do with good camo and concealment skills while wearing regular DPM, or even just flat olive drab! I see a lot of ghillie snipers who have awful fieldcraft and they're incredibly easy to counter-snipe. Having a rifle that performs well is always useful though and I'm sure he'll appreciate it when he's able to reach out to 75m with decent accuracy.

 

[Reef]

Thanks impulse, he’s been watching people like Sillyghillie and CamMan, I’ve just seen the prices of a decent suit so yes, field craft will come first!

The rest I used to have for camera lenses had polystyrene balls inside so was light and you could shape them, bit like a small beanbag. I also think the idea or Velcro is great, I’ll see what I can come up with.

 

[Badgerlicious]

I'd say if you spend a lot of time prone and needing to stay dead still for 10+ minures, then a bipod is worthwhile. Otherwise you can often find something to rest it on. 

On ghillies, a concealment vest is about £40 and is an excellent base to craft on, no need to go for the expensive suits right away. BDUs + net + shoe goo is even cheaper. Green and brown cotton can be cheap, but tricky to get the right colours online. The ghillie packs of cotton are good colours but more expensive. Raffia is very cheap, nutscene do some excellent dyed colours. 

But good field craft is required to make it effective. 

 

[Rogerborg]

Great to hear that it went well.  Are you minded to push the power up towards 2.3J?  Once you start doing that, you may find yourself chasing the White Rabbit of robustness and performance mods, which can get expensive, fast.

The other option is to cut a coil off the spring[*]and drop it below 1.14J, so your son can use it without a MED.  This is a viable play-style if you enjoy it.

[*]With it being that close, I reckon I'd just heat and flatten a coil instead, then chrono it.

 

[Reef]

 Are you minded to push the power up towards 2.3J?

Not at the moment, my son said he had a great time so that’s all that matters for now. The distance rule didn’t worry him yesterday but let’s see what happens after a few games. I’d be interested to see the difference in performance v BB weights first before changing springs, etc. No rush….
I spent a few years modding Subaru’s so understand the cost in chasing a performance figure ?.

Thanks for the input.

 

[mrfoxhound]

Not at the moment, my son said he had a great time so that’s all that matters for now. The distance rule didn’t worry him yesterday but let’s see what happens after a few games. I’d be interested to see the difference in performance v BB weights first before changing springs, etc. No rush….
I spent a few years modding Subaru’s so understand the cost in chasing a performance figure ?.

Thanks for the input.

the heaver you go up , on a stock vsr you will start to lose range  and gain travel time , .28 is probably the sweet spot .30 might be the maximum you could probably use before you start to see longer travel times and less magnus effect  

 

[Rogerborg]

the heaver you go up , on a stock vsr you will start to lose range  and gain travel time

Why would that be?  Starting with the same energy at the muzzle, and assuming that the hop can impart enough spin[*], a heavier BBs will always retain more energy than a lighter one and go further.

It'll take longer to reach a closer target, but that's hardly an issue for a sniper with a 30m MED - which is about the point where it will overtake a lighter BB.

[*]If your gun can't fully hop it that's a different issue, but it's an issue with the hop unit or bucking and nub, not the BB.

 

[mrfoxhound]

Why would that be?  Starting with the same energy at the muzzle, and assuming that the hop can impart enough spin[*], a heavier BBs will always retain more energy than a lighter one and go further.

It'll take longer to reach a closer target, but that's hardly an issue for a sniper with a 30m MED - which is about the point where it will overtake a lighter BB.

[*]If your gun can't fully hop it that's a different issue, but it's an issue with the hop unit or bucking and nub, not the BB.

try it, use heavy bbs and watch them drop faster , i think they run out of magnus effect faster  is why it happens , tho i have only seen it sporadically  with .30s with certain shooters .i see it consistently  with .40 and up 

 

[StoveCap]

try it, use heavy bbs and watch them drop faster , i think they run out of magnus effect faster  is why it happens , tho i have only seen it sporadically  with .30s with certain shooters .i see it consistently  with .40 and up 

I'm certain that has nothing to do with the BB weight, sounds more like hop problems.

Sure, on lower power builds the performance increase of using heavier BBs is less noticeable than on higher power builds. Because the Heavy BBs have less initial velocity to conserve better than their lighter counterpart.

But no matter what, if you have a hop that imparts the same relative spin on both the light and the heavy BB, the heavy BB goes farther. It wont run out of magnus effect sooner. It is heavier, heavy things conserve energy better, and as such will spin longer, prolonging the magnus effect, and conserving the muzzle energy for longer making them faster than lighter BBs at any range farther than ~10-20 metres.

 

[mrfoxhound]

I'm certain that has nothing to do with the BB weight, sounds more like hop problems.

Sure, on lower power builds the performance increase of using heavier BBs is less noticeable than on higher power builds. Because the Heavy BBs have less initial velocity to conserve better than their lighter counterpart.

But no matter what, if you have a hop that imparts the same relative spin on both the light and the heavy BB, the heavy BB goes farther. It wont run out of magnus effect sooner. It is heavier, heavy things conserve energy better, and as such will spin longer, prolonging the magnus effect, and conserving the muzzle energy for longer making them faster than lighter BBs at any range farther than ~10-20 metres.

he is talking about stock vsr 

 

[Rogerborg]

he is talking about stock vsr 

There is an argument to be made that if you're not going to do anything to a stock boltie then you might be unable to fully hop a heavier BB, or you have to apply so much hop pressure that you drop the muzzle energy to the point where a lighter BB would end up going further.

Which is why I was careful to say "starting with the same energy at the muzzle, and assuming that the hop can impart enough spin".

The thing is, a stock Tokyo Marui VSR is likely to be shooting at something comically low like 0.72J (280fps with a 0.2g). I'm not sure if OP is rocking a VSR10 clone, or if it's pre-meddled, or if it Joule crept upwards rapidly with heavier BBs.  Either way, there's only really two sensible ways to go with it: tune it down to under 1.4J, or up to 2.3J shooting the heaviest BBs that it will hop at that muzzle energy.

 

[Reef]

Thanks for the reply's guys. I didn't realise this thread was still going

It is a brand new stock TM VSR we have. My son (12) is happy with the range using .28's at the moment, I'm sure we will be upgrading the internals at some point though. My worry with heavier springs is his ability to cock the gun. 

When/if I get to have a go with the gun in the field I will get a better idea of what needs to be done.

Thanks again for all the info, its a learning curve for me.

 

[Rogerborg]

Huh, then that's surprisingly high power for a stock VSR-10.  I'm guessing that it Joule-crept up to there on the 0.28g and might have come out under 1.14J on 0.25g.

If your son is enjoying using it, I'd be minded to leave it as stock, other than dropping the power very slightly so that it's just under 1.14J with the heaviest BBs that it can lift (I'd hope 0.32g wouldn't be an issue).  You'll keep the light pull, not stress the components, and lose the MED.  Just dropping in 0.25g might bring it under the MED limit.

 

[Reef]

Thanks Rogerborg, I’m sure the Marshal said 1.17 but will check next time we crono.

I need to understand this ‘joule creep’ and ‘hop up’ terminology. Still don’t really get it. ?

 

[mrfoxhound]

Thanks Rogerborg, I’m sure the Marshal said 1.17 but will check next time we crono.

I need to understand this ‘joule creep’ and ‘hop up’ terminology. Still don’t really get it. ?

 

[Sewdhull]

A heavier BB will go further and quicker than a lighter one if it has the same forwards energy.

The issue comes when you add hop to impart more of the springs energy to the BB to make it spin in a similar way to a lighter BB which leaves less energy to make it go forward, so it's slower out of the barrel not only because it's heavier, but also because some of the pushing energy got used up getting it to spin.

Normally we would adjust the spring to add some FPS to compensate for the hop rubbing more.

Joule creep happens because a heavier BB takes longer to speed up and exit the barrel than a lighter BB so the force acting on the BB can do so for a longer time (potentially the pressure will be higher too). This only works if the lighter BB wouldn't have used all the energy.

 

[Lozart]

A heavier BB will go further and quicker slower than a lighter one if it has the same forwards energy.

The issue comes when you add hop to impart more of the springs energy to the BB to make it spin in a similar way to a lighter BB which leaves less energy to make it go forward, so it's slower out of the barrel not only because it's heavier, but also because some of the pushing energy got used up getting it to spin.

Normally we would adjust the spring to add some FPS to compensate for the hop rubbing more.

Joule creep happens because a heavier BB takes longer to speed up and exit the barrel than a lighter BB so the force acting on the BB can do so for a longer time (potentially the pressure will be higher too). This only works if the lighter BB wouldn't have used all the energy.

FTFY

 

[Impulse]

I think he meant that at range it will (generally) hit a target quicker because it decelerates slower than a lighter projectile. I don't have the exact numbers, but it's typically at longer ranges. Up close, the lighter BB will hit first because of the initial speed and less time for it to decelerate.

But yes, they leave the barrel slower with the same energy. 2.32J with a .2 is 500fps and with a .48 is something like 322fps