Ed your kit is out of date :P

[JamesACF1994]

Well I was told the rumour by a friend who's a reg, still means it won't happen for ages I know, but it is probably going to happen. Apparently its not a very popular rifle.

And if you thought the A2 was bad you havent heard the hype over MTP yet.

 

[Ian_Gere]

The problem with saying "oh, all our next wars will be in the desert" is that it isn't necessarily true and a lot of things can happen in the space of a year or two - this kind of thinking has screwed the MoD over repeatedly.

True, but it's like the other side of that old saying "If the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails.", because, assuming that's taken on board and the screws, staples, glue, etc., are recognised for what they are, the answer is simple: use an inappropriate tool or do nothing. Fortunately for us, the Foreign Office do actually have more options than military force, as Von Clauswitz observed, "War is the continuation of politics by other means." or something like that

Few people expected the Falklands Islands to kick off, which is why most of our kit was ill-suited to the climate (very few waterproofs or cold weather kit, boots that were only usable in urban areas).

Indeed, but there were overriding political reasons why that conflict went ahead regardless of our military preparedness, in fact, in spite of the hardship our service personnel would have to suffer as a result of that ill-preparedness. Then again, to a politician, an individual soldier whom gets shot because their fingers are too cold to shoot first is simply a statistic, simply part of the equation 'public support and financial cost vs gains'. What we, as observers and potential statistics, have to understand is that the 'gains' side of the equation not only looks very different from inside the corridors of Whitehall to our own perspective, but also can never be admitted without unbalancing the equation. In the Falklands, for instance, how would we view 'remaining in power' as sufficient gain to justify even one soldier's frostbitten finger, let alone life?

For years after the end of the Cold War people were convinced that we would still be fighting wars in Northern Europe or in Asia - right up until 2001 it was thought that any conflict wouldn't be desert areas, which is why even in 2002, prior to Iraq 2, most of our kit was still being designed towards N.Europe or Asia.

Of course the military would always like a full toolbox, but it has to be paid for. If the makers of hammers have friends in Whitehall, hammers will remain their primary tool. It seems that someone who makes those fencing tools, hammer / nail-pry / pliers all in one, has friends in Whitehall now...
If a situation which this multi-tool cannot fix easily crops up, once again it will have to be dealt with by diplomacy or service personnel will be 'screwed'...

 

[M_P]

Apparantley, they're updating the LSW too (that information is from zeroin, so feel free to throw it out the window)

 

[The Leprechaun!]

I'm sceptical that the colour of a rifle is what gives away troops positions (considering the previous 90 years of warfare)

Its not so much just the rifle being camouflaged that will help, but if all the kit is camouflaged (or more so than before) then it becomes far more effective. Hell look at the spread of camouflaged pieces of kit since the Second World War (starting off with Denison Smocks and now almost all the kit issued has a camouflage pattern on it). I'm surprised military forces haven't jumped on camouflaging weapons sooner (cost?)

 

[Nutster]

I'm surprised military forces haven't jumped on camouflaging weapons sooner (cost?)

Cost might play a factor, more likely is the lack of common sense further up the chain

 

[The Leprechaun!]

Haha that would not surprise me... :L

 

[Hubert]

M_P, do you have anymore photos of the LSW? I saw a prototype 2/3 years ago, but it got scrapped due to costs. The rail on that one looks a bit like the prototype B&T made a few years ago.

@Ian I can't fault your reply, although you seem to have a lot more faith in the government and the Foreign Office than I do.

(Although as someone who is forced to read Clausewitz's writing non-stop, I much prefer Admiral Hamilton's take on Clausewit's work, "Politics is the continuation of war by other means" )

I guess my main problem is that I'm worried that MoD is doing what it always does - think that all future conflicts or wars will be the same as the current war that they are fighting, and plan accordingly. ("we won't need X ever again! Let's scrap them. Oh crap...") Sensible procurement and the MoD rarely go together in the same sentence...

Getting back to the topic of painted weapons... - Joe, if that's the case, why just leave the rifle as a large block of tan? All you've done it change it from flat black to flat tan. Why not actually try to paint it camouflaged? Seriously, I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but it just seems utterly pointless to change the colour from one solid block to another block. Then again, I learned my fieldcraft from the Navy, so I'm probably seeing it from their perspective.

 

[M_P]

I've got two others but they're so out of focus you can hardly see anything-I'll post them up later if you want?

I thought it looks more like the b&t l85 ris than the dd one so that makes sense

 

[The Leprechaun!]

Cost might play a factor, more likely is the lack of common sense further up the chain

Solves all your questions Hugh, who knows what the MOD are thinking sometimes... :L

 

[Ian_Gere]

I have faith that the politicians will do what politicians always do, Hubert... feather the nests of those who put them in power and/or keep them there. What soldiers do or don't have to do the job they are commanded to only matters to politicians twice - when it comes to allocating the contract for the kit and if/when the lack of it becomes a news item.

 

[Hubert]

I've got two others but they're so out of focus you can hardly see anything-I'll post them up later if you want?

I thought it looks more like the b&t l85 ris than the dd one so that makes sense

Either PM them to me or post them here, whichever you think is most relevant - I'm curious to see what it looks like.

The proto I saw a few years back was a modified DD rail. The bipod was removed, but the outrigger was still there but with some RIS bolted on. It had a Harris style bipod on the front and one of those folding fore-grips.

 

[armysurplusandtoys]

on the tan of the rifle, do we expect any less of the head sheds of the armed forces? I believe the kit is getting better but some things are not adding up.

but armed forces personnel have always shall we say upgraded their kit.

 

[jcheeseright]

Well I was told the rumour by a friend who's a reg, still means it won't happen for ages I know, but it is probably going to happen. Apparently its not a very popular rifle.

And if you thought the A2 was bad you havent heard the hype over MTP yet.

I've heard very few complaints about the L85A2 (or the SA80 as it's known by anyone who isn't an airsofter), it's an accurate, reliable weapon which with the DD RIS is about as adaptable as a soldier needs it to be. A lot of the rumoured gripes from serving personnel about the SA80 is a really old throwback from the A1 which was pretty much universally hated for being a bag of turd. It's only significant down-side really is the weight, it's heavy for a 'modern' weapon.

Same goes for MTP, I've heard no complaints about the pattern or the newer style PCS cut of the current issue stuff. I personally wear PCS MTP very regularly for work and have done in climates varying from 40C+ off the coast of west africa down to -10C in the Antarctic and I have no complaints with it at all.

Needless to say, the SA80 WILL be replaced, one day. At the moment there area absolutely no steps being taken to even research a suitable replacement and with the budgeting crisis the MOD is in at the moment I wouldn't expect to see a new standard rifle for the UK armed forces for probably a decade or more.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Longer probably, James. Although I expect that engineers are busy creating prototypes... Small arms manufacturers will have been doing very nicely out of the last decade so it's not as if they can't spare a few quid for R&D. People must live in hope, eh? As perverse as that sounds in this situation lol!