Competitive But Not Speedsoft

[Adolf Hamster]

I don’t see the need for the hit detectors or the load out rules, just a good marshalling team and a sort of milsim style of load out rules eg real cap mags and so on.

real cap isn't a bad shout, will put a dampener on unnessecary trigger spamming.

 

[Rogerborg]

Empirical Impact Detection, meaning if you get hit in the face, upper or lower body, we'll know and so will you.

I'll have this by the end of the year, if not before.

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[ImTriggerHappy]

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But will it know the difference between a hit and a ricochet 

 

[Musica]

But will it know the difference between a hit and a ricochet 

Ricochets count IRL. 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Ricochets count IRL. 

Not in airsoft though and you can't say one is like the other as bb ricochet is nothing at all like bullet ricochet.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

That would actually bring the skills of speedsoft to the fore.  Instead of domination purely due to finger/trigger speed and/or running around like a demented idiot it would bring the need to understand the angles, time moves to the optimum moment etc

Is a speedsoft player just a bling player and is a ‘tactical’ player just someone dressed up in combats?   Some of them are, others are players with abilities and skills

Fair enough. Let's see the best rise to the top.

Hmm okay, so you want tactics and realism in small 5v5 games. The first issue is that it’s 5v5, minimal players results in intense, fast and over in two seconds kinda engagements regardless of playing tactical or not.

As for game modes you cannot have both teams on the offensive, one team needs to be the clear defenders (or objective holders eg. Flag holders or hostage takers) and the other the attackers (this could be swapped so each team gets a turn). This promotes slower gameplay and teamwork allowing attack and defence plans can be conversed over and executed.

Maps would have to follow closely to the ones of the games you mentioned, they need a main building or compound with a small amount of “street” or woodland surrounding to allow the attackers to make a dynamic entry (tactical af I know) having an alleyway approach like in cod soon gets stale and very speedsoft like.

I don’t see the need for the hit detectors or the load out rules, just a good marshalling team and a sort of milsim style of load out rules eg real cap mags and so on.

Small cap mags will probably be a large enough factor to get it to where I want.

Good point about attack/defend.

And how many marshal do I need to watch 10 players in intense CQB? 

I'm sorry but I'm sick of hearing people talk about non-hit takers. Problem solved, no need to bring it up in the safe zone again and again.

Loadout rule is really just the belt because of the system, everything else is fluid.

Are you going to ban sliding to deter those speedsoft scum from ruining everyone else's fun? They will slowly walk through my line of fire and get shot then. 

Slide away! And it give all you've got

real cap isn't a bad shout, will put a dampener on unnecessary trigger spamming.

I'll edit that in.

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I was hoping for an actual picture.

But will it know the difference between a hit and a ricochet 

No, the margin of error would be too small to be certain.

Ricochets count IRL. 

True.

 

[AK47frizzle]

If ricochets count, we will have a game of trick shotters.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

If ricochets count, we will have a game of trick shotters.

Yep I use door frames to irriate door campers all the time.

Simple fact is ricochets cant count and that IRL bullshit is plain daft because bbs ricochet off anything bullets dont.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

I'm sure I can figure out a resolution.

The thought of someone blasting a wall and it spraying all over the place doesn't sound very sportsman-like.

Not in an organised match anyway, a skirmish is different.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I'm sure I can figure out a resolution.

The thought of someone blasting a wall and it spraying all over the place doesn't sound very sportsman-like.

Not in an organised match anyway, a skirmish is different.

Short of covering every surface with play doh there is nothing to make it work.

 

[Callum Hornsby]

Not in airsoft though and you can't say one is like the other as bb ricochet is nothing at all like bullet ricochet.

Very true bbs bounce off 99% of surfaces bullets bounce off 1% however the bullets would penetrate nearly all walls in a cqb environment so having ricochets count may not be the worst thing. Makes it easier to Marshall as well, as a hit is just a hit no questions asked.

Adding too my earlier comment I want to touch on grenades. Grenades are going to have to be exactly what they are bang grenades are just that, distraction devices. Pea grenades or bb grenades would be “kill grenades” but that presents another problem. In an competitive environment where the only objective is to win grenades become very overpowered. Chuck one in a window for a 100% kill rate in that room... not very fun or interesting gameplay is it ? it would be abused and you’d just end up playing grenade wars. Why would anyone risk exposing themselves to enemy fire when u could just lob a nade? Now there are two ways to get around this inevitable outcome, ban “kill” grenades or make it so they are not always a viable option. For example in a hostage rescue mission when the hostage is in an undisclosed location on the map you can’t just lob a grenade into every building because if you kill the hostage you’ve automatically lost. This would require players too atleast get a visual on the room to verify what subjects are inside it and wether it’s cleared hot for a “kill” nade. As well as this in a bomb refusal game the grenade could detonate the bomb resulting in a loss.

For the best realistic environment you have to give the players the most options too them but you have to subconsciously condition them to play a certain way. Place heavy emphasis on the importance of staying alive this forces a player to work more tactically as they want to survive but also want to win the objective.

And how many marshal do I need to watch 10 players in intense CQB? 

I'm sorry but I'm sick of hearing people talk about non-hit takers. Problem solved, no need to bring it up in the safe zone again and again.

I would say 5 should be enough place them in important parts of the game zone so they see the most action as well place heavy consequences for any player / team caught cheating to encourage fair play. 

 

[Musica]

Yep I use door frames to irriate door campers all the time.

Simple fact is ricochets cant count and that IRL bullshit is plain daft because bbs ricochet off anything bullets dont.

perhaps it's ok to let ricochets count as IRL if you had  shotgun and knew a guy was behind a door hes dead. I think the reason they don't count on skirmish days is otherwise everyone would be firing at everything all the time and it could easily be considered blind firing. 

I had a guy last game day pumping out 6 shots at me from his shotgun trying to get one through tiny gaps in my cover. If it was IRL I would of been hit but since he has 0 penetration against wood I was victorious! 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

@Seth_Erebor on a small cqb site like yours one or two in high vis and a player marshal each team.

Player marshals are the best weapon against none hit takers.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Short of covering every surface with play doh there is nothing to make it work.

Sponge Rubber Sheet?

A thinner version of this, that doesn't go everywhere and doesn't have any health risks.

Very true bbs bounce off 99% of surfaces bullets bounce off 1% however the bullets would penetrate nearly all walls in a cqb environment so having ricochets count may not be the worst thing. Makes it easier to Marshall as well, as a hit is just a hit no questions asked.

Adding too my earlier comment I want to touch on grenades. Grenades are going to have to be exactly what they are bang grenades are just that, distraction devices. Pea grenades or bb grenades would be “kill grenades” but that presents another problem. In an competitive environment where the only objective is to win grenades become very overpowered. Chuck one in a window for a 100% kill rate in that room... not very fun or interesting gameplay is it ? it would be abused and you’d just end up playing grenade wars. Why would anyone risk exposing themselves to enemy fire when u could just lob a nade? Now there are two ways to get around this inevitable outcome, ban “kill” grenades or make it so they are not always a viable option. For example in a hostage rescue mission when the hostage is in an undisclosed location on the map you can’t just lob a grenade into every building because if you kill the hostage you’ve automatically lost. This would require players too atleast get a visual on the room to verify what subjects are inside it and wether it’s cleared hit for a “kill” nade. As well as this in a bomb refusal game the grenade could detonate the bomb resulting in a loss.

For the best realistic environment you have to give the players the most options too them but you have to subconsciously condition them to play a certain way. Place heavy emphasis on the importance of staying alive this forces a player to work more tactically as they want to survive but also want to win the objective.

I would say 5 should be enough place them in important parts of the game zone so they see the most action as well place heavy consequences for any player / team caught cheating to encourage fair play. 

Low mag count/real cap mags might limit that tactic. We'll see.

Bangs would be better for distraction, good point. Perhaps a limit on grenades then?

perhaps it's ok to let ricochets count as IRL if you had  shotgun and knew a guy was behind a door hes dead. I think the reason they don't count on skirmish days is otherwise everyone would be firing at everything all the time and it could easily be considered blind firing. 

I had a guy last game day pumping out 6 shots at me from his shotgun trying to get one through tiny gaps in my cover. If it was IRL I would of been hit but since he has 0 penetration against wood I was victorious! 

It's a tricky one for sure.

@Seth_Erebor on a small cqb site like yours one or two in high vis and a player marshal each team.

Player marshals are the best weapon against none hit takers.

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

We'll see

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Sponge Rubber Sheet?

A thinner version of this, that doesn't go everywhere and doesn't have any health risks.

Low mag count/real cap mags might limit that tactic. We'll see.

Bangs would be better for distraction, good point. Perhaps a limit on grenades then?

It's a tricky one for sure.

But there over a dozen buildings with an upstairs and some with multiple rooms.

We'll see

Mall used to run 1 for every 10 players and was a 200,000 sqft maze.

Seriously your idea has so many issues that no matter what you suggest or how you spin it anybody who knows the game well will see what I see, a short lived gimmick destined to disappear very quickly.

Low cap mags will just piss off 90% of airsofters. All airsofters want is a good well run site that lets them act like children.

 

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Think its a great idea in principle. I agree with Callum 100%. Make it a fast paced 'mini milsim'. I personally dont see the point of a hit detection system - the black ops site is small and cheaters would be sniffed out very quickly. If you go with that system i think richochets would have to count - its pretty all or nothing.

Edit: im just gonna say it: i have zero interest in the hit detection system. Lasertag exists,dunno where you lot skirmish but i find non-hit taking very rare.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Yeah hit detection is a "nice to have, worth exploring" option. I wouldn't be gunning for it this quickly, because it's trying to fix a problem which wouldn't even be that much of an issue in the game format you're describing (imo)

With regards to the format itself, I really like the idea. I think you'd be a fool not to market it as a way for a group of friends, teams etc. to prove themselves against other teams. Get some rivalries going, leaderboards, tournaments, all that good stuff. Paves the way for esports-style integration later on.

 

[Callum Hornsby]

I agree very much with George and DrAlexander, this does sound good and something I’d be willing to travel and maybe even practice for. I think the best way too accomplish this is by replicating the games you originally mentioned. As far as your site goes I’d recommend sectioning small parts off because if you play the whole site it will just be an utter mess.

Personally I’m totally against the hit system it’s limiting players to a speedsoft style of belt rig and weird lights on them... doesn’t sound great to me. I like the term George used calling it a “mini milsim” and that’s exactly what it is players are probably naturally gonna gravitate towards special forces / swat loadouts which are more suited to cqb then your standard infantrymen.

Study a lot of military cqb training videos as well as real missions and see what sort of environment they was in the objectives they had replicate it as best as you can. Experiment I’m sure you’ll soon find the sweet spot. 

 

[Smintheus]

You talk about the hit taking system as taking out non hit taking complaints. Unfortunately, these complaints are primarily caused by the fact that airsofters think they're much better shots than they actually are. 

The complaints will still be there, but they'll be :

'I hit him somewhere the system didn't register' 

'I hit him but the system didn't work' 

'I hit him before he shot me' 

Etc. 

These complaints are ubiquitous and part of the sport. I've spent literally years following up on them as a marshal and the number of complaints that proved justified were under 10%. 

Even in paintball, hit taking is an issue! 

A better suggestion - make tracers compulsory. Suddenly everyone can see where they're shooting. 

For the overall format, it has some promise but seems like a niche appeal. It's also literally speedsoft with extra bells, which is fine....

Otherwise I think the concept has legs. The hit detection gear is a waste of time and money, but the concept might run. I'd slot it in as a once a month special alongside regular skirmish days. 

Also worth thinking - if you're trying to go this way, this concept is probably best marketed at non airsoft players. That way you could provide all the kit and control gear and load outs, and angle it as an experience day. Regular airsofters will resist this hugely because they want to use their own kit. 

 

[Rogerborg]

I was hoping for an actual picture.

Back atchya.